Post by: mark davidson on February 04, 2009, 09:52:15 AM
Post by: cb on February 04, 2009, 12:59:11 PM
I am for sure going to do .62 cal. ; is that somehow feaux pas in a Hawken?
On the large size but not unknown....
I am going full stock and flintlock...are those OK?
Yes there were many fullstock Hawkens made. Flintlocks - none currently in existence (a couple of conversion sthought do exist), but the time period in which they were made says there was good possibility - lock recommendation - Chambers LATE Ketland
Will a hooked breech or regular breech be more in keeping with the Hawken tradition?
For a fullstock flint - standard breeching
How about regular pins versus wedges to hold the barrel in place?
Wedges definitely
How about barrel length....I am leaning toward 36" or maybe 38"?
Either length - tapered or swamped, straight barrels would make the gun barrel heavy and only a VERY few Hawkens have them, the majority by far were tapered, but several originals exist with swamped barrels
FWIW - Hawkens are a first love for me, been studying them since I saw my first one in a magazine in 1962, still have that magazine.
If you're interested I can post some pics later.......
Post by: mark davidson on February 04, 2009, 01:56:17 PM
Thanks so much for the time you took to provide such detailed answers. Sounds like I might be on the right track after all. I cannot explain my fascination with the Hawken. I suppose it has been an obsession since I first saw Jerimiah Johnson with Robert Redford. I still watch that movie several times a winter. My first "traditional" black powder gun was a typical TC factory Hawken model in .50 cal and I took a few deer with it and got the fever for a sho-nuff custom gun. I had built a Virginia rifle (long rifle) and have kinda wished ever since I had gone the Hawken route so now that is what I will do. I have really enjoyed the flintlock over percussion and have learned to shoot it well so I want to stick with flint just for the sake of novelty and fun. I will check out the website you mentioned. Thanks again.
Post by: BEAVERMAN on February 04, 2009, 02:04:24 PM
http://www.thehawkenshop.com/ (http://www.thehawkenshop.com/)
Post by: Bigsmoke on February 04, 2009, 02:05:11 PM
Post by: mark davidson on February 04, 2009, 02:15:14 PM
Post by: rweber on February 04, 2009, 07:59:05 PM
far too heavy to enjoy hunting with for me personally, everyone has their own ideals ofcourse.
Just a devil's advocate approach, if it is possible try to swing by a shop like Tip Curtis' where maybe you can piece a gun together and get a feel for what you have in mind before ordering parts and being commited.
Now in a 1" barrel a 62 cal might not be that heavy, I'd still try to swing one and see what it feels like at first blush.
I've built more 'modern' repro flinters that end up being clubs than I can shake a stick at, a neat idea is sometimes a real good pry bar in the end. LOL.
Post by: rollingb on February 05, 2009, 12:24:54 AM
First one I built was a .58, with 1" x 42" Green Mountain barrel,... shot great, but was a little "muzzle heavy".
Next one was a .54, with 15/16" x 36" Green Mountain barrel,... good carry'n rifle and "shot like a house'a fire". (My friend SSE now has that rifle :(
Post by: Wyoming Mike on February 05, 2009, 08:03:02 AM
I built mine in .58 with a 1" x 36" GM barrel with a hooked breech and captured keys. I built it with an L&R Large English lock. If I was buying the lock these days, I would use the Chambers Late Ketland. I shoot a lot of competition and use the rifle in big bore competition all the time. It has done well by me over the last two years.
I call it a fantasy piece because no flint Hawken mountain type rifles have ever been found but as cb said there are a few that looked like they have been converted from flint. Until and actual flint mountain model shows up I'll still consider it a fantasy piece. I doubt anyone would complain about it but the most anal thread counter if I took it to a rendezvous.
Post by: mark davidson on February 05, 2009, 11:50:55 AM
Post by: rollingb on February 05, 2009, 12:43:41 PM
Also, the fullstock is the forerunner of the "late(r)" plains/mountain style halfstock J&S Hawken (which I've never seen turned away at rendezvous either, even if they were wearing a flint lock).
HTH
Post by: mark davidson on February 05, 2009, 01:05:27 PM
Thanks for the clarification; as I said, I have never been to a rendezvous at all. I have heard some gossip though about such things as we mentioned. I am sure it is mostly good people all assembled for the common good of having a good time. I have also heard of folks being asked to break camp and move it to another area cause some of their stuff was not period correct or was too modern. I figure I need to do my homework out of respect before I go to one with the wrong stuff. I just want to shoot really and see the cool stuff and learn the ropes so to speak.
Post by: BEAVERMAN on February 05, 2009, 01:48:20 PM
Post by: jbullard1 on February 05, 2009, 02:51:15 PM
Quote from: "mark davidson"
Rollingb,
Thanks for the clarification; as I said, I have never been to a rendezvous at all. I have heard some gossip though about such things as we mentioned. I am sure it is mostly good people all assembled for the common good of having a good time. I have also heard of folks being asked to break camp and move it to another area cause some of their stuff was not period correct or was too modern. I figure I need to do my homework out of respect before I go to one with the wrong stuff. I just want to shoot really and see the cool stuff and learn the ropes so to speak.
Mark
Check us out at the next Hatchie Run event in late March
I don't think you will get turned away; we are there to have fun and enjoy shooting
Jerry
Post by: mark davidson on February 05, 2009, 02:57:18 PM
Jerry,
I may very well try to make that Hatchie Run event. It is close to home and I am sure if there is stuff for sale I can find something I need like a new hatchet!! It will all depend on exactly how well the smallmouth are biting on Pickwick about then!! :-)
Post by: BEAVERMAN on February 05, 2009, 03:03:36 PM
Quote from: "mark davidson"
Now Beaverman, You've done gone and made me a might jealous with your story!!! You got to hold a sho-nuff original full stock flintlock Hawken!!!! I too wish you had taken a picture!!!
Jerry,
I may very well try to make that Hatchie Run event. It is close to home and I am sure if there is stuff for sale I can find something I need like a new hatchet!! It will all depend on exactly how well the smallmouth are biting on Pickwick about then!! :-)
Mark, Im hoping to get back to Chicago this year and have talked with this gentlemen, about visiting several times and hes' agreed to allow me to take as many pics and measurements of any gun i wish, this stuffs got to be preserved for historical reference, Im more concerned with the more obscure builders pieces that he owns, evryone has documented Hawkens, Becks, Lemans, Dickerts etc, its the local small town builders that re known and listed in books that have few refrences or pictures of their work that Im interetsed in, along with his collection of fowlers and english shotguns, he has a double barrled flint Baker shotgun thats just drop dead beautiful and very well made that Im interetsed in trying to reproduce, hope I can get back there before the ol boy goes under!
Post by: jbullard1 on February 05, 2009, 03:04:56 PM
we got monthly shoots, and rondy's in March, June And October
You are welcome to attend any or all
Post by: mark davidson on February 05, 2009, 03:23:03 PM
If I were a better fisherman I could catch the darn things the rest of the year, but as it is that spring turn on from mid to late March to mid June is a "special time" for bronzeback yanking. Either way, I promise to make it a point to make a monthly shoot or rondy with you fellers and see what all the fuss is about!! My wife will be so proud as I need another addiction about like......well...you know! :-)
Men, I am outta here for the day today. I will check back and see how yall's pulse is beating tommorrow. Have a Blessed afternoon and don't forget to say your prayers at bedtime!
Post by: Three Hawks on February 06, 2009, 02:00:13 AM
Quote from: "mark davidson"
Now Beaverman, You've done gone and made me a might jealous with your story!!! You got to hold a sho-nuff original full stock flintlock Hawken!!!! I too wish you had taken a picture!!!
Jerry,
I may very well try to make that Hatchie Run event. It is close to home and I am sure if there is stuff for sale I can find something I need like a new hatchet!! It will all depend on exactly how well the smallmouth are biting on Pickwick about then!! :-)
For a little while The Hawken Shop was located near Oak Harbor on Whidbey Island. While they were here they brought an original half stock .50 Hawken rifle to the CMM shows each Spring. I would go their table just to hold that rifle and feel the waves of goose bumps go up and down my body. It had the plainest of plain percussion locks and a snail bolster breechplug with not a speck of any metal but iron showing. I asked them about Hawken flinters and they said there is no known example of one and no mention of one in the Hawken records. So like Rollingb says any flint Hawkens are fantasy rifles until they can be verified by a prime source.
That said, I have never heard of or seen anyone booted out of a rondy for any reason other than illegal acts or gross misconduct.
Three Hawks
Post by: BEAVERMAN on February 06, 2009, 12:31:02 PM
Post by: Three Hawks on February 06, 2009, 04:28:03 PM
Quote from: "BEAVERMAN"
All I can tell you is what Ive seen and held, like Jerry said, build what ya want unless your dead set on being HC with the build, Im at the moment completing a full stock 54 generic plains rifle, not attributed to any builder, althoug all the hardware is iron "Hawken" stuff , its a capper with a drum and I used the interchangable L&R lock, so i can drop the cap lock, remove the drum, install vent liner and drop in the L&R rock lock
Now, if'n yer wantin' to go period keerreket and flinter at the same time, I'd take a long gander at a Leman type trade rifle. Hunnerts if not thousands, dozens maybe, of those all over the plains and mountains. Dang perty guns, too.
PS: My much loved ol' T-C Hawken started life as a flinchlock kit in 1969. Then in the mid 70's I got a burr under my blanket and bought a T-C percussion lock, made up a drum and converted to concussion. I also bought and fitted a cast steel buttplate to replace the brass one that came in the kit, and cast a babbit nose cap. I have had actual arguments with a couple of guys about the provenance of my rifle. There are a thousand ways of making a rifle your own.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/Nordicthug/th_PaulBunyanRondy08withtent034.jpg) (http://http)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/Nordicthug/th_PaulBunyanRondy08withtent037.jpg) (http://http)
My 2 cents.
Three Hawks
Post by: cb on February 07, 2009, 03:03:18 AM
Quote
I asked them about Hawken flinters and they said there is no known example of one and no mention of one in the Hawken records. So like Rollingb says any flint Hawkens are fantasy rifles until they can be verified by a prime source.
With respect, but some of the info being passed on by folks including some posted on the Hawken Shoppe site is old and/or incorrect info:
1) The Smithsonian Hawken has been verified by certain knowledgeable folks to be a conversion from flint to percussion and it was built in the 1850's, some 25-30 years after the brothers joined forces. There are some "experts"who dispute this, but none that I know have actually inspected the rifle in person, rather they base their assertion on the known photos and their own "prejudices". There are also a couple of other conversions that have not been verified, but are very good possibilities (see below).
2) Regarding documentation:
Charles Hanson wrote his book about the brothers Hawken back in 1983, and unfortunately far too many people have accepted it as the final word, something the good doctor warned against. Plus some of his arguments/conclusions are not based on the best scholarship, something he also warned about, yet did himself.
Since then more info has come to light - for instance:
1) Dr. Hansen stated that there were no records of a Hawken ever going to rendezvous. Documentation has now been published showing that in at least three years: 1834, 1836, & 1837, several Hawken rifles did in fact go to rendezvous.
2) He pictured a pre-1825 Sam Hawken made flinter and stated that at that time it was the only one known. Since then several others have come to light. Due to their eastern styling, many consider that these rifles are pre-St. Louis guns, but the fact is they can just as easily have been made between 1822-1825 when Sam first arrived in St. Louis.
This brings up a point that is rarely discussed. For whatever reasons it is commonly envisioned that the Hawken brothers, both of whom had been trained in the Maryland school of long rifles, which are eastern brass mounted flinters, suddenly upon arrival in St. Louis began making what we now consider to be a typical Hawken - iron mounted half-stocks or full stocks in percussion.
What facts we do have, including a few, very few early "transitional" rifles, show that the style developed over time and was not an immediate change from their previous work, just like most other makers.
3) Dr. Hansen also stated that the brass mounted flint Hawken described by George Ruxton in 1846, which he said dated from 1825, was likely a fabrication since he knew of no brass mounted Hawken mountain rifles - but there are in fact a few brass mounted Hawken mountain rifles still in existence, including a J & S Hawken with a converted flintlock and an 1850's period S. Hawken full stock with a converted flintlock. I can supply photos if anyone would like to see tham.
As for the records - unfortunately the records are extremely sparse for the era prior to 1831, a time when flinters were far more popular than percussion guns. Even through most of the 1830's percussion guns, while they did get used in the far west, were not popular until after 1840. For instance the Henry's Bolton Gun works didn't start supplying percussion guns to the fur companies until 1840.
Secondl some more records have come to light since 1983 and give a more complete picture. Also - Dr Hansen used a fairly limited set of fur trade records and they were far from complete. This includes his commonly quoted chart of sales which is based only on sales to the fur companies and does not include the known tax records for 1850, a year in which Sam paid taxes on 100 rifles produced, thus skewing the history of sales.
The brothers as individuals were in business in St Louis, from 1818 (Jake the elder brother) and 1822 (Sam). Both dates are well before the percussion lock was popular and even the 1825 date of their partnership is several years before percussion guns became popular in the west. Did they stop making guns during a period in which flinters were still king, and only begin when the percussion became popular? In fact the few records still in existence do document that they made guns during the flinter years.
So is a flint Hawken a fantasy? With respect, IMO no since fantasy implies an item made up without any substance in reality, yet the records, while not complete, as well as other circumstantial evidence, implies other wise.
The Hawkens, both as individuals and in partnership, were like most small shops of the time a custom shop, where a customer could order a gun as he desired. And yes like most small shops of the time they also did repair work and general blacksmithing, but nothing in the records indicates they did not make any rifles, in fact just the opposite.
Flint Hawkens IMO are akin to the the pre-1760 American made rifles - we know they existed, but to date there are no known surviving examples - are they then fantasy too?
On the other hand, as noted above, there are other verifiable flint rifles that went west with the trappers:
The iron mounted Southern rifles and the iron mounted Henry Lancaster for example. Unfortunately for the latter we have no known existing examples, only written records. The one shown in Hansen and other books is not a Henry - it has a Henry barrel and IIRC lock, but the rifle itself was made in NC, by an unknown maker.
Other options are the brass mounted Lancaster style trade rifle as made by Dickert, Gomph, Henry (the most prolific post 1826), and others, including Leman, who was a late comer to the western fur trade - his company's first recorded rifles going to a fur company are post 1840.
Don Stith, whose site I noted above, has been working on a good copy of the Henry and while they are not listed yet on his site, he has sold a kit or two. I'm not sure how much farther he's gone in developing the kits for sale because he hasn't gotten as much interest in them as he'd like to before expending the time and energy - so for those interested in a copy of such a fur trade rifle I'd let Don know. He's also a heck of a nice guy and is one the most knowledgeable people regarding Hawkens in particular, and muzzleloaders of the west in general. He not only owns original Hawkens, from which some of kits are based on and has inspected many, many more - The only way really to understand the nuances in construction which make the Hawken a genuine Hawken and not some other make and something that Don is willing to pass on, usually free of charge.
While not perfect one of the best books available on firearms in the west is "Firearms of the American West: 1803-1865" by Garavaglia and Worman. It contains some older info that has since been updated, but it also contains a lot of primary documentation for the time and place.
And yes handling the old guns is special, I've had the pleasure of handling/inspecting first hand a dozen Hawkens over the years, including the Bridger and the Modena/Medina ones........and if I sound passionate about Hawknes it is because I am, but my passion does not blind me to the facts either, but much of the info available is older and has either been refuted and/or added to - unfortunately much of it is only available by talking with the folks in the know, like Don Stith, most of whom seldom write about it
Post by: sse on February 07, 2009, 09:01:43 AM
Post by: Captchee on February 07, 2009, 09:36:19 AM
i would only add 1 thing that many folks forget
Hawken was not a school they were a maker . Today we all to often look at a half stock rifle and simply state that it’s a Hawken . Well it most like is not or for that mater a faithful reproduction an many ways .
There were many makers who produced these half stocks . Hennery , Derringer just to name a couple .
We also I think forget that the Hawkens brothers as you state , did not just ,one day start building rifles . They came from a very long family of gunsmiths with roots based soundly in the old Lancaster school.
As such it simply an impossibility for there to not have been full stock , flintlock , long rifles with the Hawkens name on them .
But you also bring up a very good point , where are these examples ?
Well IMO I think we have to place these in context of the maker themselves .
Hawkens were not known for making high end examples. What they were known for is making a quality utilitarian rifle in very low numbers when compared to many other makers of their time aimed directly at the working class of people
I don’t believe this niche would have changed as it really was their bread and butter .
Even concerning greater makers of earlier rifles , few examples made at that level of market exist. What we most times see documented are higher grade pieces that were for the most part placed in the middle to up class .
Thus very few examples of rifles owned by the working class are known .
Also as you stated , times have changed and the information we have now is 1000X what we had in the 1970’s, 80’s and even the 1990’s .
I think it would be fantastic if many of these folks like Hanson, Pope Shumway or Lindsey could update their writings to the current documentation that’s now available . Sadly that’s never going to happen . But still the case may be that someone may come along and compile new sources of info.
There are a few examples of Hawken rifles a couple of the more well known would be the Bridger rifle and the Medena rifle . And these are what most folks bild copies of or base the beliefs on when it comes to the hawkens rifles. But we also must remember that these were made late in the era . While both rifles show signs of being well used , we also have to I think keep in mind that both these rifles were in the hands of fellas that were past the time of daily drudgeries of a typical average person .
They also possably IMO represent a higher end rifle made by the brothers
Post by: jtwodogs on February 08, 2009, 12:19:34 PM
It has a 36 inch barrel GM .54 cal. barrel 15/16th.
It is full stock with patent breech (I am new to this so some of my spelling may be off, please forgive)
Flint with an L&R lock (I think), barrel wedges.
I to watch Jerimiah all the time.
If someone wants to turn their nose up at my gun, oh well its what I want . They don't have to look at it.
And if its a shoot that would not allow to me shoot because of period correctness "Oh well" .
Hope you enjoy what you want, and not what someone elses opinion of what you should have.
Will try to post some pics of mine when I get it.
I am sure with Wyo working on it, it will be drop dead.
Thanks
Post by: Sean McKown on February 08, 2009, 08:23:31 PM
Post by: Wyoming Mike on February 09, 2009, 08:05:11 AM
Quote from: "jack simpson"
I am having Wyosmith put one together for me.
It has a 36 inch barrel GM .54 cal. barrel 15/16th.
It is full stock with patent breech (I am new to this so some of my spelling may be off, please forgive)
Flint with an L&R lock (I think), barrel wedges.
...
Oooo! You'll have to post photos when you get it. Steve does an awesome job on any gun he does.
Post by: mark davidson on February 09, 2009, 02:04:33 PM
Post by: jtwodogs on February 09, 2009, 08:25:15 PM
I meant no dis-respect to anyone who posted before me.
On the contrary I hold the opinions of what I consider my elders in this area in the most highest regards.
And further more have yet to experience anyone on this thread with an attitude of condescension.
That is why I keep coming back. There is a bunch of good hearted people here.
I guess I am more used to the other part of the gun world who seem to continually put down anything they don't own.
I am learning that not everyone is that way.
Please by patient with me. And forgive any forwardness.
Thanks
Jack
Post by: rollingb on February 09, 2009, 09:43:49 PM
Post by: Captchee on February 09, 2009, 10:00:03 PM
Post by: mark davidson on February 10, 2009, 09:21:59 AM
Post by: tg on February 11, 2009, 08:08:33 PM
I doubt that you will wander into that type of camp, the biggest threat of being "Jumped on" is when someone trys to make unfounded claims about theri gear, others gear or most anthing in general that is off base and being presented as kosher.Even then most will offer corrections with the references to back them up.Not trying to talk you out of a Hawken but there atre some early flintlocks that shoot very well in the larger bores below is my Chambers smoothrifle it weighs 9lb with a 42"barrel the IsaccHiane or any similar gun with a 38" barrel would be a bit less and they are made for the large bores with wide deep butstocks not far removed in handling from the German Jaegars which had some influence in the developement odf the American longrifle I don't want to get into the oversimplified "the Jaeger evolved into the Kentucky longrifle "thing now that is another several pages of info and theory.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/ttttg/virginia.jpg)
Post by: tg on February 11, 2009, 08:28:58 PM
Post by: medbill on February 11, 2009, 09:16:28 PM
I one just like you speak of but it was only a .54 cal but a beauty made by John Bergmann.
Right now Steve Zihn has a .62 half stock on his work bench with my name on it. When it gets here I'll post lots of pics and along with a range report.
Probably won't get to having my dream fullstock hawken flint built for a year or two but its on the bucket list.
Good luck and have a rifle built the way you want it built and don't look back.
Billy
Post by: mark davidson on February 12, 2009, 01:17:32 PM
Post by: tg on February 12, 2009, 03:55:34 PM
Post by: SquirrelHeart on March 11, 2009, 03:08:37 PM
Follow the link and word search on "Hawken" or select Hawken as the manufacturer.
http://www.bbhc.org/collections/bbhc/in ... museum=CFM (http://www.bbhc.org/collections/bbhc/index_CFM.cfm?museum=CFM)
I am currently building a halfstock Hawken with a flintlock. May not be for sure PC, but it is for sure what I wanted to build!
Post by: mark davidson on March 11, 2009, 03:31:20 PM
Post by: jbullard1 on March 11, 2009, 03:41:23 PM
Quote from: "SquirrelHeart"
........................................................
I am currently building a halfstock Hawken with a flintlock. May not be for sure PC, [size=150]but it is for sure what I wanted to build![/size]
And this is all that matters in my opinion
