Volume versus weight

[mark davidson]

Forgive this question if it is dumb. :-)  I cannot figure out the real difference between black powder weight and volume. My reading material (Fadala) emphasises black powder being measured by volume and not weight. So I figured there must be some big difference between the two. Well, my little brass factory powder measure set to hold 100grains by volume can be filled level and then dumped onto my scales and still actually weighs almost EXACTLY 100 grains!(99.7)  So what is the big deal??  Why is "volume" so strongly emphasised?  Am I missing something here?  The volume by volume and the volume weighed of Goex 2F is for all practical purposes identical in my tests. Somebody educate me here and tell me what I am missing or doing wrong.

[jbullard1]

Mark
Weigh the same volume of Pyrodex and see what you get

[sse]

Mark - If I were you, I'd just forget about the weight measurement.  Since everything depends on a volume measurement of a specific granulation (e.g. FFg, FFFg, etc.), and we don't take scales to the range or woods, there is no reason to be concerned about the weight of a given charge.

[mark davidson]

I did read a similar example where Pyrodex weighed significantly different by volume versus weight but I do not shoot Pyrodex so I kinda put that out of my head. I could in fact just forget about weight but there seems to be something worthwhile in a little EDUCATION so I thought I would ask the experts. We may not take scales to the woods but I doubt if many of us just dump in a handful and hope  for the best.  I reckon I just want to know that my charge is not too heavy or too light and I was wondering WHY the whole shooting world outside black powder measures their powder by weight and BPer shooters still use volume. It's a simple curiosity question?

[Bigsmoke]

Mark,
The concept of dumping a handful of powder and hoping for the best is more or less that of English big game hunters in Africa with their big bore guns in the 1800's.
The common word of wisdom here is to measure your charges, whether it be with an antler measure or an adjustable brass measure or whatever.
There is the thought of consistency in loading.  As such, a measure of whatever sort will give you a pretty consistent charge, which is what we are after.
The question of why does the rest of the shooting community weigh their charges while we steadfastly continue to do volume is simple.  With our firearms, if we go over by a little, it's not going to make all that great of a difference in pressures.  That cannot be said for these new fangled cartridge guns and their stinky smokeless powders, can it?

[Sir Michael]

I think your confusion comes from our common use of a volumetric measure to load with that has been sized to hold a specific weight of black powder.  Adjustable powder measures work because a specific weight of powder occupies a specific volume.  

The term "grain" is in reference to the weight and weight only.  There is no volume that correlates to "grain" since a grain of every material that can be made ganular will occupy a different volume.

[snake eyes]

I think old snake-eyes will stick to my brass volume measure.
Too old to change now.
snake-eyes

[snake eyes]

Mark
Weigh the same volume of Pyrodex and see what you get

Jerry,
        What is Pyrodex?

[jbullard1]

Mark
Weigh the same volume of Pyrodex and see what you get

Jerry,
        What is Pyrodex?

Is is a propellant I used to use before I became obsessed with this Mad Sport  

[mark davidson]

I appreciate your patient answers. I think I am seeing that black powder is a bit more forgiving than anything I have ever needed to "measure."  Before I figured out that 100 grains of 2F was still 100grains on the scale, I was paranoid.....paranoid in my experimentation that I would radically overcharge trusting the volumetric measure and not really knowing how much it weighed!  I guess that was a stupid newbie stumble. It really only bothered me when I experimented on up around 200 grains at which point I began to worry a little and want to make sure 200 grains did not translate into WAY TOO MUCH by weight.  Since weight does not seem to matter with this black powder thing, I will do as you advise and just trust my brass measure and the numbers on it and leave the scales alone and see what the paper target and my shoulder tell me about my loads. :-)  Thanks again.

[rollingb]

I did read a similar example where Pyrodex weighed significantly different by volume versus weight but I do not shoot Pyrodex so I kinda put that out of my head. I could in fact just forget about weight but there seems to be something worthwhile in a little EDUCATION so I thought I would ask the experts. We may not take scales to the woods but I doubt if many of us just dump in a handful and hope  for the best.  I reckon I just want to know that my charge is not too heavy or too light and I was wondering WHY the whole shooting world outside black powder measures their powder by weight and BPer shooters still use volume. It's a simple curiosity question?

Mark, although "you" don't use the faux powder (Pyrodex and etc.) there are lots of muzzleloader shooters that do,.... now,... put yourself in the position of a "retailer" selling (faux and "REAL") blackpowder for muzzleloaders, and it soon becomes a matter of "liability".
The pressures generated by "all the powders" (real blackpowder and the fakes) are comparable and relative by "volume" instead of weight.

HTH

[CowboyCS]

I was wondering WHY the whole shooting world outside black powder measures their powder by weight and BPer shooters still use volume. It's a simple curiosity question?

The answer you're looking for is not in the BP by volume, it's in the smokeless by weight. With a lot(most) smokeless powders a change of 1 or 2 grains can make a huge difference in pressure and velocity. With some smokeless a 1 or 2 grain difference can be catastrophic. But with BP 1 or 2 grains is not even noticeable without some fairly serious pressure measuring equipment.

[mark davidson]

RB, I get it now; it's the lawyers' fault! :-)

[rollingb]

RB, I get it now; it's the lawyers' fault! :-)

Weeeelll kind'a,.... you must understand that blackpowder (the "real" stuff) has been around for hundreds of years (unlike "smokeless" and the faux substitutes), With the introduction of smokeless which generates a much higher pressure per-grain then real blackpowder, it became very easy to blow any muzzleloading firearm up.

Fast forward to the introduction of the modern "substitute" powders for muzzleloaders and although they kind'a "smoke" like the real stuff, they are still a "flammable solid" just like the cartridge rifles use, and they weigh less then real blackpowder (given the same volume).

The liablity of producing and selling a type of (faux) powder for muzzleloaders, (that weighed less per-volume than the "real" stuff) became a legal issue and all loads reccomended by the producers of the faux powders are strickly by "volume" measured with your humble little adjustable measure instead of scales,.... so yep,.. the lawyers dunnit.

[Voyageur]

 "Doc"