Traditional Muzzleloading Association

Traditional Firearms => Flintlock Long Guns => Topic started by: mark davidson on November 12, 2010, 09:11:26 AM

Title: Priming the drum?
Post by: mark davidson on November 12, 2010, 09:11:26 AM: Do many of you prime the drum before hunting and then replace the nipple? Also, if I want to do that just to make me feel better is there anything wrong with priming the drum with a little dab of 4F from my little pan primer thingy that I use with flinters?? Somehow, it would make me feel better in the woods knowing that 4F is sitting there ready to almost "guarantee" that when that cap pops there is going to be a thunderous boom immediately following. :-) Any thoughts????
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Post by: Swamp on November 12, 2010, 09:24:56 AM: Mark, I've been a cap shooter and hunter for many many years. You do not need to prime the drum. All of the horror stories of hunters having problems with caps going off and not the charge, is from a lack of care, period. Follow these simple steps, and you'll never have a problem. I do all this the night before I hunt.

First, swab your bore, drum and nipple using patches with rubbing alcohol. I use pipe cleaners to clean the nipple and drum. This will remove the oils, which is the biggest culprit of misfires. Let these sit and dry a few minutes.

Second, swab again with dry patches and pipe cleaners.

Third, install the nipple, and head outside and snap 2 or 3 caps to make sure everything is dry.

Forth, wake up, head out, load your rifle, shoot deer, and enjoy the venison.

Seriously, these few easy simple steps will ensure your gun will fire in the morning. I use CCI #11 Magnum primers. I've never had a misfire on my cap gun hunting. A little prep before you go is all that is needed.
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Post by: Bigsmoke on November 12, 2010, 10:29:50 AM: Swamp, couldn't agree more.
Actually, you are a little more meticulous than I am, as I never do the pipe cleaner routine. But popping a few caps is the secret. And aim the muzzle at a reactive surface so you can see that there is air coming out the muzzle.
Listen also. A plugged passageway will give a muffled report, a clear one will give a crisp, shart report.
Mark, don't over think this situation. it's almost, but not quite, rocket science.
John
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Post by: mark davidson on November 12, 2010, 11:12:52 AM: Thanks Swamp, My current pre hunt ritual is very similar to yours. I use starter fluid(ether) to totally clean and erase all moisture and then dry patch the ether residue out before loading. I've never had a misfire in the woods but I do not want to have one now either.
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Post by: Swamp on November 12, 2010, 11:21:44 AM: You won't! Just make sure there's no OIL and you'll be good!

Another tip here, and I've seen this happen too! Before you load your capper with fresh caps, inspect them to make sure ALL are good caps. I've had it happen a few times, buying a new tin of caps, only to find a few that had no primer compound in the copper cup!

Also, leave your rifle out in the cold, do not bring into warn cabin, house, camper, whatever. Again, one of the biggest mistakes hunters make, and giving Traditional ML's a bad name of being unreliable.

You know this would be the time the buck of a lifetime would be standing there in front of you, and your capped with an empty primer! DON'T FORGET TO INSPECT THEM!

Good luck to ya. Report back with your hunting stories!
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Post by: mark davidson on November 12, 2010, 12:01:09 PM: Men, thanks again for your tips and patience. I do tend to overthink things sometimes. I am such a performance oriented person so the thought of a misfire when it counts in the woods is abhorrent to me and I guess I get a little OCD trying to ensure 100% ignition. I never thought to inspect the caps; I WILL make that part of my routine. I always inspect my modern ammo to make sure it has a primer in it so why not inspect #11 caps as well!! DUH! I can't believe I never thought of that!
If I get a shot tommorrow morning, I should have a story for you on Monday!! :-)
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Post by: Swamp on November 12, 2010, 12:45:25 PM: Sweet!!!!!!!!! Good luck to you!
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Post by: sse on November 12, 2010, 01:04:57 PM: I have heard of the practice of priming behind the nipple "just to make sure" of discharge with a buck in the sights. I don't do it, nor do I shoot caps off to make sure the channel is clear, only because I know how I cleaned her out the time before and make sure there is no obstruction.

Of course, now saying that, I'll probably get a FTF next time out...LOL
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Post by: mark davidson on November 12, 2010, 01:41:02 PM: OK, Just for the sake of friendly conjecture....."IF" I wanted to prime the drum just to make my OCD head feel better, is there any reason not do use a dab of 4F to prime it with?? :-) Please humor me with an educated guess. :-)
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Post by: Riley/MN on November 12, 2010, 02:01:13 PM: Yes, you will create a fuse instead of a flash (a semi-educated guess)
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Post by: sse on November 12, 2010, 02:07:39 PM: I've used 4F to push out a dry ball. Just have to make sure the nipple is re-seated properly, because you don't want it coming back at ya, that is for sure.

Also, I use the hot-shot style nipples and the blow back is well controlled, don't know how this would work with a standard nipple, though.
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Post by: Swamp on November 17, 2010, 07:56:02 AM: Well, I will say this. IF you plan on priming behind the nipple, then you better practice shooting this way as well. Putting a change into your load could make yer rifle shoot differently. Just make sure your bore, drum, and nipple are oil free, and you will have no problems.
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Post by: Uncle Russ on November 17, 2010, 11:02:36 AM: Quote from: "Swamp"
Well, I will say this. IF you plan on priming behind the nipple, then you better practice shooting this way as well. Putting a change into your load could make yer rifle shoot differently. Just make sure your bore, drum, and nipple are oil free, and you will have no problems.

I've been watching this thread for a bit, and what Swamp says makes absolutely perfectly good sense to me. Plus, the thought of having to practice that way certainly has merit....

Mark, you have also mentioned on occasion your experience with modern loading and how you would somehow like to build the confidence you have with that into Muzzleloading....well, think of this little prime as just another variable you're adding, somewhat controlled, but nonetheless a variable, and a somewhat cumbersome one to create.
I strongly believe a clean, oil free, nipple and drum, accompanied by good quality caps, is still your best bet for constant ignition. Also, the dry-firing of a couple of caps before loading is an absolute must in my mind.

Just my thoughts.

Uncle Russ...
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Post by: shootrj2003 on November 17, 2010, 11:06:28 AM: The chances are good you will make afuse-a hangfire-just like too much priming in a flintlock pan-from personal experience,it took me awhile to figure out why my flint was always going ssssst bang!I use just a pinch now and she fires just as quick as my capper.You need that channel clear to the main charge,there is a theory that even air screws it up somewhat ,thats why they make a nipple with a hole and some guys drill their drum with a small hole,when the cap goes off the flash compress's the air ahead of it and with a hole the air can get out of the way, that is the theory,to me it makes sense ,I think it speeds up your ignition time and any thing that gets the bullet out of the barrel quicker is an aid to accuracy.
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Post by: Swamp on November 17, 2010, 11:26:05 AM: If you shoot 3F like I do, the drum will fill with powder, and it doesn't act like a fuse. Take your rifle, charge it, then remove the nipple. You will notice the channel will be filled with powder. No need to prime a caplock. Just good care before you load will ensure your gun will go off. Nothing else has to change.

Russ, your right on the money! I was a big handloader for many years, and when you change something, you add a variable. If you add a variable, you better practice with the new change, as your gun will shoot differently.
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Post by: Trois Castors on November 17, 2010, 08:19:02 PM: I don't do this, I just remembered reading something about it:
http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/products ... startat=21 (http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/products/detail.tpl?ID=322&category=Accessories&subcategory=Black%20Powder%20Accessories&startat=21)
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Post by: Gordon H.Kemp on November 17, 2010, 11:20:39 PM: Like Russ , I"ve been reading this thread with interst . I would have toagree with most "tips" suggested here . I too have found new caps without compound in them , not often but you know the one cap out of several hundred with no priming would show-up at a critical momnt , so make sure to check them , it only takes a moment . As far as priming the drum with 4ffff I wouldn"t . there is a good chance you are creating a potential problem. a clean and dry flame channel , to me , is the best insurance for fast positive ignition.
The comment about not filling the pan on a flinter is a whole other subject , that would fill another forum with opinions . :)
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Post by: shootrj2003 on November 18, 2010, 12:20:07 AM: Trois castor's,
That is actually the first thing I've ever seen that promotes nipple charging It's interesting but I've never seen the need alway sfigured a clear route to the main charge is the way to go,but I am far from an expert at bp ,I just go with what works for me.
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Post by: Roaddog on November 18, 2010, 05:01:13 AM: I have a old Visine botal filed with FFFF in my shooting bag. When I get to blabberin to much with my shootin partner and dry-ball my lode I put some #4 in the drum and nippal and spit the ball back out. That's the onaly time I do that. It works for that very well.
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Post by: Captchee on November 18, 2010, 08:58:38 AM: Couple things if I may
I would agree with swamp IMO 99% of the issues often complained about , stem from improper care. Any cleaning solution or oils left in the bore or bolster , will effect your ignition . Having it clean and dry and free of oils is the key
your drum or bolster channel is a direct extension of the bore .
As was stated , there should be powder already in that channel . Depending on the size of that channel , if you take the nipple out ,you may find the channel full of powder OR just a few grains .

when you load powder from the main charge drops down in this channel . if it dosnt then you have a restriction . possable caused by carbonized fouling thats building up and restricting the channel .
this can be a real bear to clean out . running a pipe cleaner helps ensure this fouling doesnt build to the point it causes an issue

Priming behind the nipple should not make a fuse burn .
1) that prime becomes part of the main charge
2) the actual flash channel , as compared to a flintlock , is actually in the nipple . Not in the bolster . The channel from the bolster should be at least 3/16 to ¼ depending on the rifle.

I would agree with swamp also on this . If you plan on priming behind the nipple . Then practice doing that . Remember 4 F is a lot hotter then 3F and your adding pressure . Granted its probably marginal unless you don’t find any powder in the bolster .
But even this little bit may have an effect on your accuracy .

Also be careful because to much prime and when you screw your nipple down it. Compresses the powder . Making a had blockage that can also be hard to ignite even if its 4F you put in . so if you decide to do that you just need a little.

The subject of venting also was brought up .
Its true that this is a theory .
Its also true that the nipples with side holes are considered to be hot shot nipples .
However the side holes serve as a pressure vent to clear the flash hole of the nipple . IE more gas is aloud to escape. What actually makes the nipple hotter is the flash channel design and size .
As to venting the drum . Yep also true . But remember this also creates an point for moisture to contaminate the charge .
On a caplock you cannot see this happen . Where on a flintlock its obvious and the moisture easily corrected by changing the pan powder .
Not so with a caplock .

As such like Russ stated . What your doing is adding variables. The less variables you have , the better off you will be .

Mark here is something for you to think about .
How many times do you have caps pop while out practicing ?
If you have a lot then there is an issue that needs to be found .

If you have very few then you should have started to build confidence in your rifle , your loading procedure as well as your cleaning process .
To include the brand of caps you use
If so you should have no concerns as to if the gun will go off .
You simply cannot with a caplock , remove the chances of having a bad or weak cap that doesn’t have enough umpfff to set the charge of .

That can happen . Its part of traditional muzzle loading .
But if you have shot enough to have built confidence in your weapons system ,. IE you and the rifle . Then the chances of the rifle not going off should be very small .

Myself I would not prime behind the nipple . Do what swamp stated . Make sure everything is clean and dry .
Then when your ready to go out , take a nipple pick that small enough to go completely through the nipple and run it into the nipple so as to make 100% sure none of the fragments or fouling from the caps you popped have clogged the flash hole .

Learn to protect the lock from the weather , just like you would a flintlock and your world will turn
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Post by: mark davidson on November 18, 2010, 10:14:15 AM: Very informative. I never removed the nipple and primed behind it with my old TC Hawken and it ALWAYS went bang and like lightening at that. I have always adhered to the super clean and dry and devoid of oil preparation and I always popped a couple of caps before loading. It seems that the consensus is that what I was already doing was enough and no need to prime the drum or anything beyond my old working practice. Thanks for the tips, and I have for sure enjoyed the discussion.
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Post by: Swamp on November 18, 2010, 10:20:13 AM: One more safety tip. Before you head outside to pop a couple of caps to dry things out, take the time (5 seconds) to drop your ramrod down the barrel to MAKE SURE the gun is not loaded. Yes, as silly as it may seem, do it anyway! It's just a good practice. It gets you in the practice of checking anytime your wanting to just "Pop a cap".

Safety! Think it, live it!
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Post by: mark davidson on November 18, 2010, 12:22:42 PM: Swamp, Excellent tip. NOTHING matters more than safety. Get that wrong and you may never get a chance to get anything else right. :-)