Traditional Muzzleloading Association

Shooting Traditional Firearms and Weapons => General Interest => Topic started by: RobD on October 13, 2014, 07:24:15 PM

Title: swiss black
Post by: RobD on October 13, 2014, 07:24:15 PM
i've been using goex 3f both down the tube and in the pan for the .45 flinter rifle.  

is swiss 3f roughly the same as goex 3f?

i use swiss 1-1/2f for .45-70 bpcr, anyone use that also for a .45 flintlock rifle?

i gotta put in an order to maine powder house tomorrow.

tia.
Title: Re: swiss black
Post by: snake eyes on October 13, 2014, 08:00:35 PM
Quote from: "rfd"
is swiss 3f roughly the same as goex 3f?

rfd,
    I am a  poor one to ask,as I am a diehard Goex guy. I do know that
Swiss runs around $10 more per# than Goex.

snake-eyes   :shake
Title: Re: swiss black
Post by: Ridge Runner on October 13, 2014, 10:51:58 PM
I use Swiss 2F in my 50 flintlock and Swiss 3F in my 44 cal cap & ball pistols.
Title: Re: swiss black
Post by: Ron T. on November 01, 2014, 10:29:49 AM
Swiss black powder is supposedly somewhat "cleaner" shooting and yields a somewhat high muzzle velocity than Goex according to what I've seen others write.

I've shot both Swiss and Goex FFFg in my older CVA .50 caliber caplock Hawken and noted that the Swiss does seem a bit "cleaner shooting"... but I've never chronographed any black powder loads.  However, the velocity tables do show a somewhat higher M.V. for Swiss as opposed to Goex.

Accuracy SEEMS to be about the same with either powder in my 3 black powder rifles although the winners of many of the shooting events at Friendship, Indiana's matches are listed as shooting Swiss black powder.

As to whether or not the Swiss is worth $8-$10 more per pound than Goex is questionable in my mind.  In fact, I'm in the midst of changing from shooting Swiss FFFg to shooting Goex FFFg strictly due to the cost of the two powders.  I haven't noticed all THAT much difference in shooting either powder.  The Goex seems to shoot with greater accuracy than I'm capable of shooting.

Jus' my 2¢...  :shake


Strength and Honor...

Ron T.
Title: Re: swiss black
Post by: Hanshi on November 01, 2014, 02:13:38 PM
I'm a Goex shooter, too.  Never have I burned any Swiss.  But from the information I've accumulated it appears Swiss is a high quality sporting powder that is milled more extensively than most others.  This has the effect of making Swiss "denser" than, say, Goex.  So if you normally use a 60 grain measure of Goex (by weight), that same measure will throw, maybe around 70 grains of Swiss (by weight).  That would account for most of the higher velocities reported for Swiss.  Since powder is packaged and sold by the pound, this would mean a pound of Swiss will give you fewer shots than a pound of Goex.  If you reduce the weight of the Swiss to WEIGH the same as a 60 grain measure of Goex then you'll get the same number of shots per pound and likely similar velocities, too.   Paying the higher cost for Swiss is not really justified if the velocity gain in rifles/guns is considered.  The extra cost, IMHO, is only justified if accuracy and consistency of Swiss are considered.

It's likely a different story in cap & ball revolvers.  In these handguns powder space is finite and once the max charge is loaded there's no room for more as in a long gun.  Being denser, Swiss is a clear winner in revolvers; you get a greater charge weight in the chambers for the same volume as other powders.  For shooters like me who must count pennies when buying powder, Goex's OE makes more sense.  It costs only a little more than standard Goex and much less than Swiss while providing similar results to Swiss.

If Swiss gives one an edge in competition then it is certainly worth the extra cost.  But basing the extra cost on a quest for higher velocities is being "penny wise" and "pound foolish"; or is it the other way around.  :idea
Title: Re: swiss black
Post by: Kermit on November 01, 2014, 07:06:02 PM
I understand a saying among competetive shooters--not folks clanging gongs, but those making close measurements of holes in paper--is that if you're not shooting Swiss, you're not trying to win.

When it comes down to pennies per shot more, and winning or not winning, the cost is not significant.
Title: Re: swiss black
Post by: RobD on November 01, 2014, 07:19:16 PM
Quote from: "Kermit"
I understand a saying among competetive shooters--not folks clanging gongs, but those making close measurements of holes in paper--is that if you're not shooting Swiss, you're not trying to win. ...

nope - the serious bpcr loooong range gongers almost all use swiss, and that's typically swiss 1-1/2f, as i use for my .45-70 rolling block.
Title: Re: swiss black
Post by: hilljack on November 03, 2014, 05:47:20 PM
The difference for me  is significant...I shot in Friendship 2002 to 2005 and the consistency of the Swiss was very marked...Most of the shooters I was participating with shot 40 cal with a couple shooting 45 cal and we averaged 50 to 60 grains of 3F and our velocity were 1900 to 2100 fps...And I saw many records set...I still use 3F in my 40s and I use 1 1/2 Swiss in my 50s and 62s...Cleaning is also easier with the Swiss....I believe that the quality of product is the main difference...Just my experience...Thanks for reading my opinions and thoughts...

YMHS
Hilljack
Title: Re: swiss black
Post by: RobD on November 03, 2014, 05:49:34 PM
Quote from: "hilljack"
The difference for me  is significant...I shot in Friendship 2002 to 2005 and the consistency of the Swiss was very marked...Most of the shooters I was participating with shot 40 cal with a couple shooting 45 cal and we averaged 50 to 60 grains of 3F and our velocity were 1900 to 2100 fps...And I saw many records set...I still use 3F in my 40s and I use 1 1/2 Swiss in my 50s and 62s...Cleaning is also easier with the Swiss....I believe that the quality of product is the main difference...Just my experience...Thanks for reading my opinions and thoughts...

YMHS
Hilljack

good scoop, thanx sir.  have you tried swiss 1-1/2F in a .45?
Title: Re: swiss black
Post by: hilljack on November 03, 2014, 07:24:40 PM
You need to check how your rifle likes it...I use 3F Swiss up to and including a 50 Cal...You can really notice the difference Schutzen and Goex sort of has a booming sound and the Swiss has a pronounced crack...Also check your patches for condition...I use 1 1/2 in my 62 Cal...

YMHS
Hilljack
Title: Re: swiss black
Post by: weda' on November 19, 2014, 09:57:48 PM
Swiss 1.5f burns hotter than 2f Goex.  Per Chrono results in my 58 flinter was 160fps faster with a 120gr charge under a .526rb with mink oil lubed .020 pillow ticking patch.  I find it burns much cleaner, less fouling.  I am also able to use it as a priming charge, as to where 2f Goex can be finicky in humid weather.