Barrel material??

[melsdad]

What type of steel are most barrels made out of? I think I remember reading that 4140 alloy was a common steel for barrels.


Thanks

[Captchee]

yes today most are made from 4140 or 12L14
but there is really more to it then that .
 some comapanies extrude the metal . others  do not ??/ the other name also used today exscapes me right now . its 10 deg here and no heat in my shop . my brain is about frozen . maybe one of the others fellas can  refresh my memory alittle

 but basicly  its not the metal as much  as the way the stresses are relieved  within the metal . did i say it was cold here  

[melsdad]

Thanks Charles, I guess I should have added that I was wondering what the material was so I can practice doing some engraving. I have a pretty good supply of 4140 material at work. I wanted to work on material that was the same as the barrel material would be.

Do you happen know what the hardness of an average barrel is on the Rockwell C scale?

[FG1]

I think GM uses 1137 for theirs.

[Captchee]

I couldn’t  tell you the hardness but I can tell you this .
CVA barrels will eat your gravers up . Literally you will spend  a lot of time sharpening . In fact just about every inch you will need to touch up the angles .
 This is what I find so odd about all the  roomers about those barrels being soft . Even cobalt tips  just  disappear.  They last just as long as M42 or high speed steal   in  what ever Jukar is using and cost 3 X as much .
 GM barrels  cut very nicely  and the ones from rice and Getz gut even nicer .
I find that  plain old cold roll is the best to  start on  if your going to  work on barrels .
Yes its a lot softer  but you will learn to keep you angles   while at the same time  be able to feel when the  your point is  getting dull .

 The thing that I have learned is that  the harder the steel  is , you need to change the geometry of the point , kinda like a wood chisel . Just as each wood is different so is each metal.
 With soft woods  you want a shallower heal . This keeps the   chisel  from diving on you . But when you go to harder woods  a steep heal will help hold the chisel in the material  and keep it from jumping out
Same with  gravers .  When the metal is hard , a shallow heal must be watched  or it will want to jump out and you will get  over runs .
 
 Go to Steve  Lindsey web sight  . Read all you can . While he  mostly about Pneumatic hammer gravers ,  it’s the same process as  chase graving or push graving .
 There is a wealth of knowledge there  with folks from Remington , colt  all the big names . These guys are the very people  who in this country do  work that demand 10 to 100’s of thousands of dollars just for their engraving  or charge thousands just for a 1 to 2 day class
BUT I have found   All of them are willing to help you out with questions . Pointers , information  no mater which of the 3 different  tools you chose to use ..
 These folks know the full scoop . don’t be afraid to ask   the most basic of question .
  Steves forum , is very much like ours here .  There is less traffic  but  they will answer you

http://www.engravingforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=2

[melsdad]

Thanks for the link Charles. I will start saving some of the 1018 coldroll scraps we have at work.

[Captchee]

polish it up nice and bright  then  start your work .  IMO cold roll will be the softed  steel l  to start on .
 what type of tools are you going to use ?
 if you interested , i have  a copy of the  one of jack brooks early engraving CD s , youe welcome to it  if you like .
 it covers making your  own  hammer graver and  how to start you practice plates

[melsdad]

Well I don't have any tools yet, but I planned to make my own. They don't look all that difficult. That is very generous of you to offer the CD, that sounds like it would be very helpful.

[Captchee]

PM me your address and ill send the cd  to include the  graver angle diagram ,out to you  in tomorrows mail

[melsdad]

I thank you very much captchee. I a look forward to the information.

[Gambia]

Brian, ya' cant beat that cap. good man.
Now about engravin' rifle

[Captchee]

WOW ,,, it Zero here this morning ..
 . I have the CD packaged and the wife is going to drop it off at the PO on  her way to town .
 In the main time  some things  that might help you .
1)  just as with rifle building , you will need some knowledge to help you . This can come from finding a local engraver who is willing to help you along  OR from books . The first is more desirable but sometimes just not an option for many of us .
A couple books I would consider would be  a basic one that very old called
ENGRAVING METALS : By  Paul  N .  Has luck . it’s a small paper back  159 pages . But in it he goes over   the basics , different tools , vices and tables  as well a lighting .
 Also another would be
THE ART OF ENGRAVING  :J.B.Meeks . it’s a hard back  and only about 200 pages but . Very good  when it comes to layouts , drawing , different styles .  A VERY good book to start out with IMO .
 There are others  out there, as well as  other DVD’s
 But this book will give  you  most all the basics you need .

2) is  design transfer .
 Your going to find that you will spend more time drawing then actually engraving . Get you a simple  collage rule  ringed notebook. The lines will help you keep things in  prospective  size as well as  help you break things  like your scrolls  up into sections ..
 Carry it with you so when you have time you can doodle away .
 Once you have something you like , then you have to be able to transfer it to the metal your using .
   There are many  different ways to transfer . Its kinda like working a load up for your rifle . You have to find one that works for you . Myself I use  Dammar varnish  as a transfer medium . If you take your time and don’t rush , it will transfer every little detail .
  A search on Steve’s site will  give many different options as well as how they work with different printers .

3) collect examples of engravings you like . Now im not saying copy them . But save the pictures to give you ideas . Coping someone else’s  engravings is like  copying a picture and then claiming it as you own .
 Its frowned upon . BUT  there is nothing that says you cant  use those designs to make your own  or even transfer them for practice plates.   Just make sure if you put them on something that you sell , you  give credit for the design to the person who originally did it  .

4) engravers . There are literally 100 of designs for these out there . Each has their own place  that they are used in . but to start out with , make yourself a square graver .   If your doing the   early American style engraving  , a large % was done using this one tool .
 They are simple to make .  Either use a  small ¼ or smaller triangle file  or small square file .  Ether will work . ..
 Push engraving  uses smaller  length gravers that fit completely in the palm of your hamd . where chase engraving uses longer ones . With there handles  you want something about as long as a  comfortable wood chisel . You have to be able to hold it firmly  and tap it with the hammer .  Yet not so long that you cant see the cutting tip .
on that point , i would also recomend that you pick up one of those  magnifiying  visors . normaly they can be found for about 5 -10 bucks  and come with 3 diffrent magnifications . these work real well for seeing the tip and keeping things in control

 Here is a couple  photo of a set up that Bill Brockway used  it should give you some ideas to work on ot think about
 




Notice on  his square graver that  Brockway shows , he uses no heal on his graver .
 This will cut very deep and quickly in soft metals . But if you  just lightly touch the bottom  two  back sides  just behind the point . It will help hold your depth better .
Again softer material , these should be longer . But harder materials like barrel steel ,  they need to be either very small or as shown , non excitant

[melsdad]

Wow Captchee, thaks for the information. One thing that has not changed since I joined the TMA, is the fact that people are always willing to go out of there way to help you out.

[Captchee]

HA!!! no problem , just glade i can help . thats what the TMA is here for  

here this link will better exsplain it then i can .
Steve's point is diffrent then the one you will make but the  principles are the same

http://www.engravingschool.com/private/LindsayPoint-Intro.htm

[melsdad]

Captchee, I received the DVD on Friday. I haven't had a chance to watch it yet, hopefully over the holidys.

Thanks again