Post by: sse on April 03, 2013, 12:32:14 PM
The last time I participated, I won, but....this was a sunny day, with a lot of dew still in the grass. I took aim and let 'er fly...we all watched as the RB plainly struck the ground in front of the steel, bounced up and hit it! I was the only to hit it, so I won nearly 10 bucks...! I mention the dew, because the ball hit the ground and threw up quite a spray of dew in the sunshine. That was good for a few laughs.
Now my question...If I wanna hit the steel on the fly, how high should I hold over the steel? I'm shooting The Swan, .54 cal, about 95 g of Ffg...I await the considered wisdom (if'n there is any around here...LOL)
Post by: rollingb on April 03, 2013, 01:25:25 PM
Post by: sse on April 03, 2013, 01:27:20 PM
The going is a rectangle about 2 X 3 ft, hung upright.
Post by: Bigsmoke on April 03, 2013, 01:32:29 PM
Shot at one of them once with the 8 bore with 300 grains Fg and a 835 grain ball. Amazingly enough, I hit the darn thing. Knocked it back into the ditch in back of the target stands and nearly punched a hole through it. Pure luck shot, but it sure was effective.
Post by: sse on April 03, 2013, 01:36:53 PM
Post by: rollingb on April 03, 2013, 01:53:51 PM
Quote from: "sse"
I think I held way above the target, only to hit the ground in front...you guys better not be feedin me a line...Any way you can do a little experimenting between now and the day of the "shoot"?
Another thing you might try, is to "up" your powder charge to 110 grs. (if you're using FFG),... and try the 3' over-center hold.
Post by: sse on April 03, 2013, 02:14:21 PM
Post by: rollingb on April 03, 2013, 02:17:36 PM
Post by: sse on April 03, 2013, 02:47:29 PM
Quote
Knocked it back into the ditchThat must have knocked you back a bit, too...
Post by: Hank in WV on April 03, 2013, 04:49:00 PM
Post by: sse on April 03, 2013, 05:05:44 PM
Post by: Riley/MN on April 03, 2013, 05:24:57 PM
Many hunters, for whatever reason, sight their rifles in for too short a range. By doing so, they lose much of the potential of the gun and make the job of hitting accurately with it over a variety of ranges very difficult. To illustrate this, we'll look at two trajectory charts generated by Gun Controller®, by RSI. Because I'm strictly a roundball shooter, they will illustrate roundball trajectories, but everything we will discuss is exactly the same for conicals. The charts show the trajectory for a .530 inch lead ball of 223.5 grains weight, fired at a velocity of 1800 fps. All parameters for the two charts are exactly the same except for the distance at which the rifle is sighted in. First, consider what we get if we sight the rifle in for 50 yards. On the plot, the line-of-sight is shown as a straight black line at the top, marked with a "0" , and the path of the ball is shown in red. Drop is the curved blue line, but that's of no concern to us now.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~bspen/50yd.jpg)
It is easily seen that the path of the bullet deviates very little from the line of the sights out to 50 yards, rising to only 0.13 inches above it (Mid-Range Trajectory) at 38 yards. Notice, though, that at 100 yards the ball is 3.77 inches low, and at 125 yards it is 8.15 inches low. A definition must be discussed here, that of Point Blank Range. Technically, it is the range at which the ball falls as far below the line of sight as it had risen above it at the Mid-Range Trajectory. Practically, it means something more useful to us, and that is the range at which we can pretend the rifle is doing just exactly what we would like it to do, shoot in a perfectly straight line. Point Blank Range is given as 56 yards in this chart, and that means that for any target from the muzzle out to 56 yards we can just point and shoot, and we will hit. Out at 125 yards, though, where the ball shoots 8.15 inches low with the rifle sighted for 50 yards, it will require some good guessing to put the ball where we want it.
Now, let us consider the situation if we sight the rifle in for 100 yards, not 50 yards.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~bspen/100yd.jpg)
Of course, your ball could be traveling at 1800 fps with 95 gr of Ffg, or it could be much less....
Post by: No Rod on April 03, 2013, 05:46:04 PM
Post by: sse on April 03, 2013, 08:21:36 PM
Post by: Riley/MN on April 03, 2013, 08:38:22 PM
Post by: Uncle Russ on April 03, 2013, 10:49:30 PM
Quote from: "sse"
Uncle Russ is s stinkin expert on this stuff...we'll see whether he'll agree with you potlickers...
LOl...yeah Jim, these old eyes are just great for long range shooting!
I tell ya what I disagree with, Jim Beau.....it's about that load Bigsmoke was shootin....I think it would do more than just "knock you back a bit", I think it would, in all likelihood, knock your socks off at the same time.
The ballistic chart Riley posted pretty much parallels a similar chart published by Lyman that has been available for years now.
However, like all such charts, the only way you will ever know your own velocity from a given charge of powder. is to shoot it over a chronograph. Otherwise, such charts have little meaning. Extrapolated powder charges, and extrapolated velocity, simply will not work.
I have discovered over many of those same years, that PBR (Point Blank Range) has to be established first, and the farther out the better when shooting Long Range.....However, if PBR is too far out, then mid range becomes as much of a guessing game as Long Range, and you will end up missing just as easily at the shorter ranges as you do at long ranges.
The ballistic coefficient of a round ball stinks!
And, for all practical purposes, the smaller the ball the faster you can push it, resulting in a flatter trajectory and, along with the flatter trajectory comes the ease of hitting at long range....however, the devil is in the details, because if the round ball is smaller, it is also lighter in weight, and much more subject to wind drift and loss of terminal energy.
So, in answer to your problem Jim, your own guess on hold over, whatever it is, is going to be about as good as it gets .
Uncle Russ...
Post by: rollingb on April 03, 2013, 11:43:33 PM
I especially remember the 1 3/8" grouping at 100 yds,.... because I was pretty impressed with the way it shot.
...... and I remember checking the loads over the chrony, because my wife borrowed the "read outs" (from the different loads) to show her math class in Basin Wyoming.
I'm pretty sure that info might be around here somewhere, or maybe it was posted on the old forum.
Post by: Fletcher on April 04, 2013, 01:02:17 AM
I site in at 75 with 70 gr FFF in my .50 (.495 rb) and seldom shoot over 100 yds.
Is there a web site for that ballistics stuff that you showed. That would be great
to work with. I think I also need a chrono of my actual muzzle velocity and work with
bullet drop and energy from there.
Thanks Pard!
Post by: Uncle Russ on April 04, 2013, 01:54:09 AM
I've had a Chrono for years, since back when the really expensive and couldn't be trusted, but now they are much less expensive and VERY reliable.
Contrary to "published" loads / velocities data, I have NEVER been able to achieve book values....but not to worry, I have know for years exactly what a particular load would do in my rifles because I had checked everyone of them.
Once I had those figures it made life much easier, because then all you to had to was match the velocities with the same weight ball to any "drop" table and I was pretty close to being in the ball park.
Still yet, you always have to verify actual impact on paper, and then adjust accordingly.
Like I mentioned earlier, extrapolated trajectories will get you nowhere, fast.
Now speaking of Chronographs, I do have one for sale....rather cheap, in fact.
I'm no longer sure of the accuracy, but just one little bullet hole from a hard cast round ball shouldn't matter all that much, would ya think?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/RussB256/Pro-Chrony.jpg)
Uncle Russ...
Post by: rollingb on April 04, 2013, 02:32:22 AM
Quote from: "RussB"
Jim, the part about using a chronograph must be considered as absolutely essential if you really plan on doing any kind of long range shooting.Nice chrony Russ!!!!!!!! :laffing :laffing
I've had a Chrono for years, since back when the really expensive and couldn't be trusted, but now they are much less expensive and VERY reliable.
Contrary to "published" loads / velocities data, I have NEVER been able to achieve book values....but not to worry, I have know for years exactly what a particular load would do in my rifles because I had checked everyone of them.
Once I had those figures it made life much easier, because then all you to had to was match the velocities with the same weight ball to any "drop" table and I was pretty close to being in the ball park.
Still yet, you always have to verify actual impact on paper, and then adjust accordingly.
Like I mentioned earlier, extrapolated trajectories will get you nowhere, fast.
Now speaking of Chronographs, I do have one for sale....rather cheap, in fact.
I'm no longer sure of the accuracy, but just one little bullet hole from a hard cast round ball shouldn't matter all that much, would ya think?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/RussB256/Pro-Chrony.jpg)
Uncle Russ...
Post by: Riley/MN on April 04, 2013, 08:05:49 AM
Quote from: "Fletcher"
Golllllly Riley - I had no idea that a ball lost over half its energy in 200 yds.
I site in at 75 with 70 gr FFF in my .50 (.495 rb) and seldom shoot over 100 yds.
Is there a web site for that ballistics stuff that you showed. That would be great
to work with. I think I also need a chrono of my actual muzzle velocity and work with
bullet drop and energy from there.
Thanks Pard!
I got that from http://home.insightbb.com/~bspen/trajectories.html (http://home.insightbb.com/~bspen/trajectories.html)
There used to be a good round ball ballistics site at CT Muzzleloaders site, but that seems to be down now....
Post by: sse on April 04, 2013, 09:28:14 AM
Quote from: "Riley/MN"
If you could get someone to stand out there with a yardstick it won't be that bad - I think I am busy that day, however....Makes no difference, if you were standing out there, I'd shoot way over yer head, just to be on the safe side...lOL
What I'm wondering...we have a "guestimate" of the drop with the bore parellel to the ground...how is the drop effected, if at all, by pointing the bore up some, in an effort to raise POI at 200 yds?
Post by: rollingb on April 04, 2013, 10:34:36 AM
Quote from: "sse"
Quote from: "Riley/MN"If you could get someone to stand out there with a yardstick it won't be that bad - I think I am busy that day, however....Makes no difference, if you were standing out there, I'd shoot way over yer head, just to be on the safe side...lOL
What I'm wondering...we have a "guestimate" of the drop with the bore parellel to the ground...how is the drop effected, if at all, by pointing the bore up some, in an effort to raise POI at 200 yds?
The ball starts dropping the second it leaves the bore,.... actually in principle, all this can be compared to water coming out of a garden hose, and how you have to tip the end of the garden hose up when squirting water on someone standing at a distance from you.
Post by: Uncle Russ on April 04, 2013, 11:52:00 AM
Quote
The ball starts dropping the second it leaves the bore,.... actually in principle, all this can be compared to water coming out of a garden hose, and how you have to tip the end of the garden hose up when squirting water on someone standing at a distance from you.
Very good analogy!
Uncle Russ...
Post by: sse on April 04, 2013, 11:59:46 AM
Post by: Spotted Bull on April 04, 2013, 12:00:55 PM
Post by: rollingb on April 04, 2013, 01:08:21 PM
Quote from: "sse"
True, but no answer to my question.If this is your question,...... "What I'm wondering...we have a "guestimate" of the drop with the bore parellel to the ground...how is the drop effected, if at all, by pointing the bore up some, in an effort to raise POI at 200 yds?"
There is a "breaking point" in distance gained by elevating the muzzle, and I think that breaking point is somewhere around 40-45 degrees of elevation,... anything above that, results in less distance the ball will travel. Keep raising the muzzle until you're shooting straight up and the ball will land on your head :rt th
Post by: Two Steps on April 04, 2013, 03:27:04 PM
and aim center mass right here [size=150]X[/size]!
:happy
No need to thank me...
Al
Post by: sse on April 04, 2013, 03:33:20 PM
Quote
No need to thank me...That's a relief...
Post by: Two Steps on April 04, 2013, 04:42:54 PM
Post by: sse on April 07, 2013, 03:35:00 PM
So one guy, who is kinda a newbie managed to hit the plate. Then somehow I did, too, aiming about 3 ft high, like you guys said...then another guy shows up. He loads up his flinter and he hit the plate, too...! Then, he decided to put his dollar in...!!! LOL
Here he is hitting the metal..
http://youtu.be/XE-ra8dzsfk
So, the three of us have to try and hit the plate again. I was the first to hit it, and the other two guys missed...Good thing is, the last guy left his dollar in the pot...!! LOL
Here's a few shots when we went back in the woods...
Post by: Two Steps on April 07, 2013, 05:15:55 PM
Post by: rollingb on April 07, 2013, 05:49:51 PM
Post by: pathfinder on April 07, 2013, 08:53:19 PM
"Back in the day" at Western Wayne,we would send a team to Blue Water in Port Huron for the 200yd match. The guy's putting on the Thursday night never ending gun building class would have all the answers you need. We WERE the team to beat. With my .58 Hawkin's (Tony Mazaitias built it),I was aiming 4' above the bears at 200yds,and hit all 4 in the right shoulder. .570 ball,115grs of 3f.
And I just watched the video. That's the guy who built my Hawkin's. My best friend in the world. Nothing in the world I wouldnt do for him! Sure have spent a lot of time with that guy. Ask him what he engraved on the end of my barrel,he'll tell you my name,but ask him again! Then ask him what he put on Georges gun! Yup good bud!
Post by: sse on April 08, 2013, 09:20:29 AM
Quote from: "rollingb"
That 2nd. rifle (from our right), in the bottom picture,.... sure looks like it could be a "200 yd. shooter". ;)That would be her, rondo...
She sure does shoot...I'm glad I asked you guys about the hold over for that shot...! It worked...!
Post by: sse on April 08, 2013, 09:21:42 AM
Quote
maybe now you won't be asking the BoD for a raise
Yeah, I'm flush with cash, now...LOL No worries paying for the gas to get home...
Post by: sse on April 08, 2013, 09:23:50 AM
Quote
Is that my wall at Western Wayne the guns are leaning on? and is that Leonard taking a shot?Yes, on both counts...while rondo did build and eventually sold that rifle gun to me, Leonard is the one who taught me how to shoot it. (He didn't hit the metal...this time.)
Post by: sse on April 08, 2013, 09:41:10 AM
Post by: pathfinder on April 08, 2013, 04:19:44 PM
He is the most humble builder I've ever seen! He will never enter a contest for whatever reason. He should. as soon as I talk him into it,I'll post his long gun.
Post by: Hawken on February 03, 2017, 11:43:07 AM
Post by: sse on February 03, 2017, 11:53:22 AM
Quote from: "Hawken"
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7404/27482082143_920a7cef6d_z.jpg) (http://https)Using_the_Peephorn (http://https) by Sharps Man (http://https), on FlickrInteresting...
Post by: Uncle Russ on February 03, 2017, 01:37:02 PM
Not sure how that rates, as far as being the correct way, but it works for me.
I have found the Buckhorn sight very effective, if I have judged range pretty close, and repeated 150 / 175 yd shots can be made successfully using this sight on KD Ranges with a 100yd zero.
A very practical sight IMO.
Peephorn / Buckhorn, I'm not sure of the difference....some Buckhorn sights are a bit more pronounced as a "peep" than others.
Uncle Russ...
Post by: Bigsmoke on February 03, 2017, 04:47:32 PM
Quote from: "rollingb"
Keep raising the muzzle until you're shooting straight up and the ball will land on your head :rt th
Yeah, kinda. But once you take into consideration the rotation of this old chunk of rock we call Earth, it isn't necessarily gonna happen that way. If'n you shoot straight up and hit someone, he is a truly unlucky person.
Post by: sse on February 03, 2017, 05:01:24 PM
Quote
If'n you shoot straight up and hit someoneSkydiver?
Post by: One Shot on February 04, 2017, 02:56:50 AM
Quote from: "RussB"
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/RussB256/Pro-Chrony.jpg)
Uncle Russ...
Wow that is some ball drop at 10'. :hairy
Post by: Ohio Joe on February 04, 2017, 08:42:47 AM
Post by: Hawken on June 12, 2017, 03:50:55 PM