Post by: Minnesota Mike on June 19, 2009, 02:14:22 PM
However have been asked recently by newbie as to when and where that actually happened . . . ugh . . . Don't know. Can anyone help provide that info?
Thanks.
r/
MM
Post by: Spotted Bull on June 19, 2009, 02:42:46 PM
Post by: biliff on June 19, 2009, 03:34:21 PM
Blowing down the barrel after the shot was thought to kill any hot spots and soften the fouling a bit. I've been doing this since the early seventies and it was an accepted practice at that time and suppossedly the way "the old timers" did it. Don't recall any historical documentation (except for one quote by Audubon in 1810) to that effect but that was the thinking at the time.
Somewhere along the line(not sure exactly when), the practice fell out of official favor and has been banned at a lot of events/ranges. This was in response to someone having a rifle go off while he was blowing down the barrel at a NMLRA event. The story I've been told is it was a husband/wife team, both shooting, husband loading for both. Wife had a misfire, handed rifle to hubby but didn't communicate the misfire. Husband thought rifle needed to be loaded, blew down the barrel and the rest is history. Don't have anything more specific than that, and even that is all unconfirmed.
Post by: Two Steps on June 19, 2009, 03:38:55 PM
Now days, I think it's more a safety precaution just to make sure that it doesn't happen. Kindda like not priming til you're on the line or making sure your horn is plugged.
Some places enforce this no blowing rule and others don't. If ya don't start doing it...it's not a problem not to. If you've been doing it for years...it can be a hard habit to break :|
I've read countless posts and been in numerous discussions about the whys and the why nots of blowing down the barrel. IMO, it is now and will forevermore be both a personal decision and a point of contention (unless the Range Rules say NO).
Opps, didn't mean to ramble
My short answer should have been "No sir...I don' know the where or when".Al
Post by: Captchee on June 19, 2009, 04:40:35 PM
I also have talked to folks that say they witnessed it . So I also ask , where as I would like to read the police report or news paper article .
Never found either yet .
this roomer seems to go around alot . The only thing that changes is the time an place an who supposedly had it happen to them . It varies , NMLRA even , club shoot , western rendezvous .
Was a married couple , a young kid , new shooter , old longtime shooter , man , woman ,. The person was talking and dint remember they loaded. . The gun didn’t go off but the shooter thought it did and it hang fired ……… the list goes on and on .
Personally I think the issue is one of not pointing a gun , loaded or other at anything you don’t want to kill . IE always keep it pointed in a safe direction . Blowing looks kind of odd and un safe to someone who is new to BP
Now what I personally have seen is a guy lose his fingers from loading with a hot coal . he dumped the powder , he then ran the RR down to seat the ball as he stood there chatting with the 4 of us and BOOOM!!! By , by fingers and part of his hand .
What can be substantiated however is people being shot while cleaning a loaded gun . Think on that one for a while next time your cleaning . Then realize no rules are made or enforced concerning that . even though its killed alot of folks and been well documented
as was said , a hot topic for sure .
Myself , i always blow down the barrel eather derectly or in events where they dont allow it , i use a blow tube
Post by: greyhunter on June 19, 2009, 04:51:46 PM
If ya hear the shot, feel the kick, and see a hole in yer target it's a pretty safe bet all your blowing down is an empty gun, however safety first. So I'll use my non pc tube and watch the smoke come out the vent hole. It's kinda like spitting in a ditch, theres no reason to, but we guys do it. When ya shoot ya lower the rifle, puff down the hole and walk away from the target like, there, take that!
Post by: Stryker on June 19, 2009, 05:23:17 PM
Quote from: "Captchee"
Personally I think the issue is one of not pointing a gun , loaded or other at anything you don’t want to kill . IE always keep it pointed in a safe direction . Blowing looks kind of odd and un safe to someone who is new to BP
Ditto. Just because the may have done it that way 200 years ago, doesn't mean I'm going to. I also don't melt lead for balls in my eating skillet.
Post by: Voyageur on June 19, 2009, 06:00:32 PM
That's exactly what I made several years back and I continue to blow down my barrel---just as Greyhunter put it.
"Doc"
Post by: FG1 on June 19, 2009, 07:53:26 PM
Post by: pathfinder on June 19, 2009, 10:20:58 PM
Post by: Capt. Jas. on June 19, 2009, 11:06:02 PM
The Father's only Child and only Joy,
As he, intent, design'd the Larks his Prey,
Himself as sweet and innocent as They,
The fatal Powder in the Porch of Death,
Having in vain discharg'd its Flash of Breath,
The tender Reas'ner, curious to know,
Whether the Piece were really charg'd or no,
With Mouth to Mouth apply'd began to blow_
A dreadful Kiss! For now the silent Bane
Had bor'd a Passage thro' the whizzing Train_
The Shot all rent his Skull, and dashed around his Brain!
Pteryplegia Or, The Art of Shooting Flying, Markland, 1727
Post by: Fletcher on June 19, 2009, 11:36:31 PM
I think if your load is right the powder should be burned out pronto. Wait a half minute before loading again if you are not sure. I don't like wiping every shot like the NRA and NMLRA suggest in their training. That is why I use the water base lube for range shooting. I never get powder residue or smoke with that lube. I use a Wonderlube for hunting and I have never gotten a chance for a fast second load. Either did not need it - the first first hit was good, or missed completely and the game was long gone.
Can't prove it - but just feel down deep that playin the smokpole like a flute is bad ju-ju!
Post by: Three Hawks on June 20, 2009, 12:33:52 AM
Ya gotta wonder about someone who would knowingly put the muzzle of a gun in his mouth.
If I was running a range and saw someone on the firing line put the muzzle of a gun, any gun, in his mouth, he'd be airborne fifty yards past the gate before his butt hit the ground. It would also be the last time he ever set foot on that range.
Think about it for a minute, what would any of you do if you saw a kid put the muzzle of a gun in his mouth? Now, how would you explain to that kid about an alleged adult he saw doing it?
Now here come the sea lawyers with all the yabuts. Yabut I only do it alone, yabut it's my rifle. yabut.........................
Three Hawks
Post by: Capt. Jas. on June 20, 2009, 09:39:09 AM
To be honest, blowing down the barrel is nowhere near as scary as being muzzle sweeped by nearly half the people you see at shoots. This is the worst problem out there.
Post by: Captchee on June 20, 2009, 09:54:38 AM
The type of roomers and over reactions only add to all the other roomers that have gave muzzleloading a bad name . RB being in adequate, BP being dangerous, guns being un safe . Add that to rule and enforcements that don’t take into account all the other things we do that can appear to be unsafe .
Blowing down a barrel is the least of my concerns when running a range .
edit===
never mind .
again to answer the question for this post .
there is that i know of , no actual documented case that can be substanciated . """ROOMER"" will still flow while at the same time issues that really do need adress , go un checked
Post by: rollingb on June 20, 2009, 12:18:02 PM
Post by: wwpete52 on June 20, 2009, 12:32:51 PM
Post by: Loyalist Dave on June 20, 2009, 01:54:07 PM
I think there is much greater probability that you'll have nicky newguy on the range with his new traditional caplock, and load modern powder into it as he is an "experienced" muzzleloader shooter and his inline will shoot the same powder, and blow himself to kingdom-come. But I will also bet nobody checks the propellants being used on the range. Even if in a proper can there's nothing stoppin the guy from putting his last ounce of smokeless powder into his new can of BP, again 'cause his inline shoots the stuff just fine.
LD
Post by: Gambia on June 20, 2009, 07:18:53 PM
Post by: rollingb on June 21, 2009, 03:47:24 AM
Post by: wwpete52 on June 21, 2009, 11:56:50 AM
Post by: snapcap14 on June 21, 2009, 12:01:15 PM
Post by: R.M. on June 21, 2009, 12:22:20 PM
Post by: LRB on June 21, 2009, 02:17:37 PM
Post by: rollingb on June 21, 2009, 07:06:52 PM
Quote from: "snapcap14"
blow bown the barrel get the coals glowing so you can have a cook off. Opps i forgot I already put the powder down Woffe is my face still there.
Snapcap14,... what purpose would blowing down a barrel AFTER dumping a fresh powder charge in, serve? :
The primary goal of blowing down the barrel after firing a riflegun,... is to purposely fire up any remaining smoldering embers that might linger in the breech, so that they quickly "burn up", and thus are rendered harmless before dumping in a fresh powder charge. :rt th
As I've mentioned before,... if you're not comfortable blowing down your barrel, there is NO rule saying you must do it,... but, by the same token, I'm perfectly comfortable with it because I know wether my gun has "fired", or, "not" whenever I pull the trigger, in fact at my age, I still like to think, that I have enough intelligence "NOT" to blow down the barrel of a "LOADED" muzzleloader that may be experiencing a "hang fire".
Post by: snapcap14 on June 21, 2009, 10:34:47 PM
a distraction in the loading prosses AND THAT kind of thing can HAPPENS. Just like do not put your hand over the barrel while pouring powder in, do not thumb a ball and do not push a ram rod in w the pam of your hand.
If you are that concerned about ambers do the safe thing and put a wet patch down the barrel.
i know I shoot a diffrent black powder game but try any of these unsafe practices at an N-SSA match and you will no dout find yourself off the line.
from all things I have read. there is notring that says blowing down a barrel was done way back when. its a hollywood thing.
Post by: cb on June 21, 2009, 11:15:41 PM
Quote
there is notring that says blowing down a barrel was done way back when. its a hollywood thing.
Bull puckey - (and FWIW the Hollywood "thing" is tiresome at best..)
with all due respect you have not done your research or by your statement even read what has been posted here - see Capt Jas post above or the quote below - this is just ONE documented period source for blowing down the barrel and it is dated 1727 and there are many more if you take the time to look - and yep it went wrong but there are few others noting damage done - most in fact are just the opposite - more are of injuries received due to still burning embers such as noted by Capt Chee......
Quote
A BLOOMING Youth, who had just passed the Boy,
The Father's only Child and only Joy,
As he, intent, design'd the Larks his Prey,
Himself as sweet and innocent as They,
The fatal Powder in the Porch of Death,
Having in vain discharg'd its Flash of Breath,
The tender Reas'ner, curious to know,
Whether the Piece were really charg'd or no,
With Mouth to Mouth apply'd began to blow_
A dreadful Kiss! For now the silent Bane
Had bor'd a Passage thro' the whizzing Train_
The Shot all rent his Skull, and dashed around his Brain!
Pteryplegia Or, The Art of Shooting Flying, Markland, 1727
Quote
blow bown the barrel get the coals glowing so you can have a cook off.
Sorry but this is a misunderstanding - you more "huff" down the barrel - a big difference for those in the "know"....huffing, when done properly, adds moisture and DOES not make the "coals" glow.........
FWIW - I've been shooting muzzle stuffers since 1961 - learned how to from my grand uncle who learned from his pa pre-WW1 - and if there is ANY doubt I do not huff....period...so no danger at all.............
Shooting a ramrod down range - YOU and nobody else are responsible for such a numbnutz act - in 48 years I've seen it happen twice - both times when they should have known better........a sad happening when someone is injured (NEVER seen that), but that is Darwin's Theory at play............getting in a car and driving down the highway is MUCH more dangerous, and I'm willing to bet most here do that every day............
In modern times the only "story" touted for not "blowing" is totally unsubstantiated ....(as noted above) - it's urban myth, or whatever until ABSOLUTE proof is offered..........
Safety is good, but like anything can be taken to the ridiculous (even such well-trained gun men as Jack O'Conner have noted such........)
NSSA, NMLRA, NRA, etc. have all had to kowtow to the insurance companies (and politicians) whose representatives have generally no real world experience with firearms of any type, let alone muzzle loaders......
bottomline - if you don't want to do it don't, but DO NOT tell me what to do or make a law to stop me.............I no longer shoot with groups because of such utter nonsense - I have my own range (out to 2000 yards, which is great for 50 BMG rounds out of a Barret! - albeit most of my shtooing is done at no more than 150 with my muzzleloders or BP lever guns) - I shoot the way I want(with all due respect to common sense safety) despite the modern nanny state's desire to lock me in a box.....................
Post by: rollingb on June 21, 2009, 11:27:24 PM
I also didn't know that blowing down the barrel of a muzzleloader was a "Hollywood thng", I've never seen it done in the movies I've watched. ;)
"IF" anyone can get my rifle to fire again after I've "fired" it (without reloading it first of course),.... I'll give it to him, and he can become the proud owner of a very nice .58 calibur Early Hawken convertible free and clear,... in fact I might be so impressed by such a feat as to include a NWTG in the deal. :laffing
NOW,.... I'm not saying there might not come a day when I'll give up worrying about my fingers and eyebrows and blowin' down the barrel of my riflegun,... but by that time my wife will be spoon-feeding me my meals at rendezvous, and I'll probably be spending most of my time dawdlin' back and forth to the hooters anyway and won't have time to shoot in any of the competitions no-how. :rotf
Post by: Captchee on June 21, 2009, 11:43:10 PM
are you saying they dont mark their RR so they know the barrel has a load ?
i would also like to know how you run your RR down the bore without your hand being over the muzzle ?
same with using a short starter , your hands over the muzzle
do not thump a ball ?
now how is this ? do you know that if you dont , you could very well have the ball off the powder ? exspecialy since it apears some folks dont make their RR
thats some very VERY odd rules your writing about .
i tell you this much , a club telling someone not to thump a ball IMO would open them up for all kinds of liabilies if someones gun blew up .
crud , I know long distance shooters who use a HAMMER to drive their projectiles home . some who even have spring loaded gagets to ensure their load is packed to the same pressure every time !!!
as to being conserned ?? im not concerned , I KNOW and have seen it first hand .
i think what people here are saying is that if your going to make a rule for safty . make that rule to cover an actual documented problem , not some made up one .
enforce the real honest proven dangers .
IE no blowing , then YOU WILL run a wet patch .
if the wet patch rule isnt enforced , then done enforce something people do for their own safty . just becouse some dreamed up something
you know its funny , people suport and follow these roomer rules put out by the NMLRA, , even though they have no documented base .
yet they never question why the NMLRA accepts as safe muzzleloading designs that have been documented to have failures and alow people to shoot them as being safe ..
IMO the minute you dictate to someone else what is and is not safe , a club just became the liable entiy when something happens that they did not advise for or against becouse they just became the responcable group , not the shooter ..
rollingB , i think maybe he is speaking of danial day lewis in last of the mohicians as a holly weired account .
Post by: Capt. Jas. on June 22, 2009, 06:00:53 AM
Post by: rollingb on June 22, 2009, 12:29:19 PM
Post by: huntnut on June 22, 2009, 12:31:18 PM
I think its a personal choice, if you don't want to, don't. If you want to, do.
Post by: Riley/MN on June 22, 2009, 05:11:45 PM
Quote from: "huntnut"
I think its a personal choice, if you don't want to, don't. If you want to, do.
...and if you blow a hole in the top of yore haid, don't come runnin ta me ta complain about it. :lol
Post by: rollingb on June 22, 2009, 05:18:00 PM
Quote from: "huntnut"
I think its a personal choice, if you don't want to, don't. If you want to, do.
DITTO!!!!!!!!!!!!! (I think that's the old "traditional" way of doing things.) :rt th
Post by: Loyalist Dave on June 22, 2009, 08:05:58 PM
Quote
try any of these unsafe practices at an N-SSA match and you will no dout find yourself off the line.
Ah YES at a range, in a match, with a caplock, is different than "always" with any type of Muzzleloader in every situation. One can see a busted cap, but maybe not have any smoke coming from it (and perhaps not notice the recoil) , while one can actually see the smoke trailing from a touch hole on a flinter when it has fired. One should also notice the recoil and the noise, except perhaps as previously pointed out, on a range with a group in a volley.
Captchee also pointed out it would be safer than not blowing to require a damp cloth run down the bore after every shot.
LD
Post by: bluelake on June 22, 2009, 10:09:32 PM
Quote from: "rollingb"
As Captchee mentioned above,... with a properly "marked" ramrod, there's absolutely no reason to get confused as to wether any riflegun is LOADED, or NOT.
How do you mark your rr? More than one mark? Empty, ball, ball and powder?
Post by: rollingb on June 22, 2009, 10:42:50 PM
Quote from: "bluelake"
Quote from: "rollingb"As Captchee mentioned above,... with a properly "marked" ramrod, there's absolutely no reason to get confused as to wether any riflegun is LOADED, or NOT. :)
Post by: bluelake on June 22, 2009, 11:09:06 PM
Post by: rollingb on June 23, 2009, 12:23:19 AM
However you mark your ramrod, no more than 2 "marks" are actually needed if you're going to use the ramrod as a "story-pole".
Post by: bluelake on June 23, 2009, 03:04:32 AM
Quote from: "rollingb"
Bluelake,... I might also mention that a second "mark" can be added to the ramrod when the gun has no charge,... this will tell you if the rifle gun is "empty, dry-balled, and etc." (or, that "something" is in the breech) if the empty mark is above the muzzle.
However you mark your ramrod, no more than 2 "marks" are actually needed if you're going to use the ramrod as a "story-pole". :shake
Post by: Minnesota Mike on June 23, 2009, 11:21:13 AM
Talk about throwing powder into a fire!
Appreciate the fine discussion and heartfelt interjections. Was pretty sure that if anyone had actual citation of said event other than a colonial era poem, this crew would be quick to flop it out and show everyone article about when Krusty Kevin blew down his barrel and changed his nickname to Slackjaw
r/
MM
Post by: cb on June 23, 2009, 03:19:18 PM
As for NOT blowing down the barrel there are also some period citations - one where the gent lost a hand when a glowing ember set off the new charge.......would have to look it up for the actual cite
re: the N-SSA, NMLRA, NRA, etc. not allowing it - that all changed in the 1980's some time and was at the direction of their insurance companies - the underwriters demanded it and it had nothing to do with actual incidents only possibilities. All during the 1960's and 1970's when I was shooting at ranges or at re-enactments it was never considered a problem or concern......
As I noted before if you're concerned about getting injured well - based on actual statistics you have a FAR greater chance of being injured in your car or when going to the doctor - statistically thousands more people die due to doctor error than do from gunshots - either accidental or intentional shootings......
Post by: rollingb on June 23, 2009, 04:08:11 PM
Quote from: "cb"
FWIW - John James Audobon mentions about blowing down the barrel
As for NOT blowing down the barrel there are also some period citations - one where the gent lost a hand when a glowing ember set off the new charge.......would have to look it up for the actual cite
re: the N-SSA, NMLRA, NRA, etc. not allowing it - that all changed in the 1980's some time and was at the direction of their insurance companies - the underwriters demanded it and it had nothing to do with actual incidents only possibilities. All during the 1960's and 1970's when I was shooting at ranges or at re-enactments it was never considered a problem or concern......
After seeing some of the various posts regarding hand injuries from NOT blowing down the barrel,.... I wonder if those underwriters will ever be smart enough to re-think their "demands".
Post by: Loyalist Dave on June 23, 2009, 04:55:36 PM
LD
Post by: Pichou on June 23, 2009, 07:32:07 PM
You should know your gun well enough to judge where the ramrod should be, loaded, unloaded, not seated, dry ball, and double charged. Marks make it even easier.
Post by: Uncle Russ on June 23, 2009, 08:38:05 PM
Quote from: "Pichou"
I have never personally seen a hot coal in a barrel, but it is easy to see smoke and hot gasses coming out the muzzle and the vent. When I see that after a shot, I blow down the barrel. If the gun did not go off, you would not see the smoke.
You should know your gun well enough to judge where the ramrod should be, loaded, unloaded, not seated, dry ball, and double charged. Marks make it even easier.
I've kinda avoided posting to this thread because it sometimes brings out the beast in the safety conscience soul and makes others mad as Hell at the thought of being seen, or thought of, as idiots.
As far as blowing down the barrel...yep, I am one of those who do this, and I've been doing it for fifty years, or better.
I also use a blow-tube for my Sharps and Hi-Wall, to me it's purpose is the same....to soften the fouling.
I gotta agree with Pichou, Chuck B. RB, Capt. and several others here, regardless of what and how some individuals and organizations may view this subject.
Like many others, I also use "witness marks" on my Ram Rods. I also know when my rifle is "loaded, unloaded, not seated, dry balled, and double charged". I know this from where my rod is in relation to the barrel without even looking for the marks.
Anyone who has loaded and fired their Muzzleloader more than a dozen times should never be in doubt about whether it fired or not when they pulled the trigger....somehow I simply can not imagine this happening, but according to others it does.
Seems to me it either fires, or does not fire, either way there seems to be little doubt.
And, if in fact it did not fire, and someone was stupid enough to blow down the barrel.......Nuff said.
This is actually a great subject and those commenting are to be complimented on, not only their views and feeling on the subject, but the very gentlemanly way in which it has been discussed.
Uncle Russ...
Post by: R.M. on June 23, 2009, 08:49:04 PM
Quote from: "Pichou"
.....If the gun did not go off, you would not see the smoke..........
And if it was loaded, you wouldn't be able to blow out the vent, it would be plugged with powder and ball.
Post by: Captchee on June 23, 2009, 09:25:25 PM
In all my years I cant ever think of a time where I didn’t know my rifle went off , cap lock or flintlock .
I don’t mark my RR . The reason for this is when I build a rifle , u make an even rod . IE the rod is no longer the bore length when empty. With the cleaning jag on , its ½ to ¾ above the muzzle . For cleaning I recommend eather a cleaning rod , or a necked jag .
This way , if the end of the rod is above the bore at all , then something is in there ..
Ill tell folks here something else I have witnessed concerning Co2 dischargers .
I have seen them blow the patch and ball as well as most of the powder . But still leave enough powder to make a sound report when a cap is popped , pan fired or an increased recoil when loaded . How much powder is left down there ??? But it seems at times , like it could be 10-15 grains
As to hot cinders . I have found them blocking the flash hole . Picked it and then dumped out the cinder and found it hot enough to burn the palm of my hand .
I also have during night shoots been able to see a glow in the bore through the flash hole , right after firing . Not always but enough times to know that loading on top of it is not safe .
A good heavy blow and then no glow ..
The simple fact is we are not shooting center fires . Muzzleloaders have their own issues that must be dealt with . There is no doubt that they are firearms. Still however firearms with their own issues that differ from all others .
So if its un safe to blow the bore and there are proven cases of coals lighting off a charge while loading , then rules need to be made to ensure that EVERYONE runs a damp patch after every round fire .
Other wise , a club is opening themselves up for the very same lawsuit . Maybe even a greater chance because a court is most likely going to lean to shooter negligence IF a case of death ever happens .
But if a club does not require a wet patch in the safety briefing , while knowing of documented cases of the charge going off while loading , then im thinking they would be more likely to be found neglant.
Once an issue is declared unsafe , then the base reason for that issue , MUST be addressed . Failure to do that IMO your open for a lawsuit
Post by: rollingb on June 24, 2009, 12:15:56 AM
Please be honest now,... because I'm really curious if such an incident has ever actually occured to anyone.
Post by: Stryker on June 24, 2009, 09:05:33 AM
Quote from: "rollingb"
I have but one serious question for the "NON-blowers",.... have you ever actually attempted to reload on top of a "hang-fire" because you (somehow) mistakenly "thought" your riflegun had discharged when you pulled the trigger? :?
Please be honest now,... because I'm really curious if such an incident has ever actually occured to anyone.
Nope, never have.
I've been shooting BP since 85 and do most everything everyone has mentioned here. My ramrod is marked, I use a pick, and I know when my rifle is loaded or unloaded. I simply don't put my mouth over a barrel. In my opinion it violates gun safety rule number 1; "never point your weapon at anything you don't intend to shoot.". It's personal preference for me, I don't berate guys I see doing it, but if they ask I don't condone it.
Captchee, I like the idea of that blow tube you mentioned earlier. I never thought of that. May have to stop at the hardware store and pick some tubing up tonight.
Post by: pathfinder on June 24, 2009, 09:51:25 AM
Quote from: "rollingb"
I have but one serious question for the "NON-blowers",.... have you ever actually attempted to reload on top of a "hang-fire" because you (somehow) mistakenly "thought" your riflegun had discharged when you pulled the trigger? :?
Please be honest now,... because I'm really curious if such an incident has ever actually occured to anyone.
Maybe it's just me, but I always hear a rush of air from the vent when loading,and I did see a guy on our walk-thru try to double load,could only get the ball barely started because of back pressure. We were able to safely get that other ball out without putting anything important over the muzzle, knock out as much powder as we could and let her rip. Impressive show, not at all recommended.
Post by: Pichou on June 24, 2009, 11:56:19 AM
Reenactors firing blanks in a "battle" might possibly have a missfire and not know it if they are in a military formation/volley fire. The mil. loading drill does not allow for blowing, or dumping unfired powder on the ground. Something to think about...
Next, matchlocks... you can put the glowing match in the pan and sometimes it will sit there and not set the prime off. I bet it is the same with glowing coals in the bore, and there are a lot of non-blowers that don't know how close they are to a boom when reloading.
Post by: Stryker on June 24, 2009, 12:58:23 PM
Quote from: "Pichou"
I bet it is the same with glowing coals in the bore, and there are a lot of non-blowers that don't know how close they are to a boom when reloading.
In the almost 25 years I've been shooting, I've never had a charge go off. Even when praticing my quick reloads. I'm not saying it can't happen, but I think the dumping of the powder down the barrel, 99.99% of the time will smother any embers. It's kind of like mythbusters, how many times have those guys tried to ignite gasoline with a cigarette? The gas actually smothers the ember.
Post by: Loyalist Dave on June 24, 2009, 02:27:39 PM
Quote
The mil. loading drill does not allow for blowing, or dumping unfired powder on the ground
Actually, the proper drill does not, BUT a silly procedure has cropped up in Rev War reenactment that I believe is the reason for the recent burst barrel, which occurred last year.
The proper drill is that after firing in volley, the musket is lowered to the position of the beginning of the loading sequence. Now..., you are supposed to look down to veryify smoke coming back through the touch hole to veryify the thing went off (especially if you have doubts).
IF your musket did not flash the pan, so all you had was a "clatch", you are supposed to half-cock your firelock, dump the prime, prick the vent hole, draw a new cartridge, prime the pan, close the frizzen, dump the remainder of the cartridge onto the ground, and be ready to follow the next set of firing commands.
IF your musket did flash, but you don't think she went off, you do the same thing.
In both cases you should feel the powder crunch when you prick the vent hole.
BUT, somewhere somebody introduced dumping of the main charge, and simply "reloading" the flintlock. Which is, quite frankly, stupid, as it does nothing to address the failure to fire. If there was no flash, either the prime is damp or you need to knap the flint. If there was a flash, then you need to prick the vent hole to open it and to feel the powder. IF you prick the vent hole and replace the prime (regardless of the problem) you are eliminating the two most common problems, and you are verifying the thing is loaded. Reprime and attempt to fire. IF you get two "clatch" in a row, knapp your flint, ensure the jaw scew is tight, then follow the above procedure.
If you don't feel the powder, it probably went off, and you were wrong. What the dumping does, especially in humid weather, is coats the barrel with unfired powder..., and if this gets above the breech area, and in sufficient quantity..., you WILL bulge or blow your barrel. I have seen some reenactors load, misfire, and dump as many as three times before they attempt to clear their piece.
You don't "dump" your load unless there is a final cease fire, and you are going to be marched back to camp for cleaning, OR you are leaving the field for the rest of the action.
LD
Post by: LRB on June 24, 2009, 02:33:24 PM
Odd that you bring that up. Knew an older guy that had a service station and repair shop in Orlando. He used gasoline to wash parts. One day the fire inspector comes in and reams him a new one over the open gasoline container. The old guy kinda told the inspector off, then said watch this. He tossed his cigarette into the gasoline. Said he had done that a few hundred times just to show people. Wanna guess what happened? After the fire was put out, the old guy got a violation citation, and never did that trick again. I don't believe you can smother a burning ember with black powder.
Post by: Gambia on June 24, 2009, 05:32:13 PM
Post by: pathfinder on June 24, 2009, 05:40:12 PM
Post by: LRB on June 24, 2009, 05:41:29 PM
Post by: Riley/MN on June 24, 2009, 06:29:59 PM
Quote from: "LRB"
I am intimate with both of those partys!!
Yeah? You guys oughta try the life of Riley sometime...
Post by: bluelake on June 24, 2009, 08:21:05 PM
Quote from: "Charlie"
I agree with Stryker but I wipe after every shot since I only shoot targets.A word of caution for all who don't think something can't happen,one way or the other let me introduce you to Mr Murphy and his Law (or is it Mrs Murphy?).
A little OT, but I used to work with a lady who was the niece of the Murphy in question (used to joke with her about it once in a while).
Post by: James Kelly on June 29, 2009, 06:19:56 PM
Personally I am not quite at the stage in life where I care to put the muzzle of a gun in my mouth. Understand it is effective, though.
Post by: Old Salt on June 30, 2009, 05:46:27 PM
A flintlock has two ports (vent and muzle) after firing to allow a natural inflow of air. Would that aid a more complete combustion of residue thereby making a flinter less probable to cook off a new load?
A caplock only has the muzzle to allow the air to return until the old cap is removed (manually or otherwise). Is it possible a new load was poured down a barrel with the old cap still in place?
In the experience of those who have witnessed the occurence was the ML a caplock or flintlock?
With modern powder I find it hard to imagine how any part of a reasonable and properly loaded charge could remain smoldering in a barrel. With the high heat, high pressure, and oxidizers I have a hard time seeing it.
Now if you mention a poorly built rifle with some crazy nook or crany that can trap an ember I might consider that. Were the cooked off loads in MLers with a patent breech?
I'm just curious.
Salt
Post by: Captchee on June 30, 2009, 06:01:54 PM
but i also shoot only flinlocks and as i have said . seen the hot coal glowing in the touch hole during night shoots
Post by: James Kelly on June 30, 2009, 11:17:32 PM
Hope he survived shooting that matchlock, I found it Exciting to shoot. It did always go BOOM.
Post by: Old Salt on July 01, 2009, 08:04:46 AM
I don't blow down the barrel nor do I wipe between shots. I don't advocate either way.
But I never shoot for speed nor use large powder charges.
Salt
Post by: Captchee on July 01, 2009, 08:42:24 AM
at our Night shoots , we shoot at chem sticks at 30 yards
its very hard to see your sights .
but when you move then back and forth across the light you can see them .
its fun and and very impressive .
Post by: Two Steps on July 01, 2009, 09:30:49 AM
Quote
at our Night shoots , we shoot at chem sticks at 30 yards
I'd looove to see a picture of a light stick blowing up!!
Al
Post by: Stryker on July 14, 2009, 02:23:40 PM
Quote from: "Two Steps"
Quoteat our Night shoots , we shoot at chem sticks at 30 yards
I'd looove to see a picture of a light stick blowing up!! :P
Post by: viking-sword on July 15, 2009, 06:40:52 PM
Post by: Ohio Joe on July 15, 2009, 10:53:27 PM
I can not recall one time in all these years of shooting muzzle loading rifles that I did not know if my rifle fired or not. Maybe I'm odd but I have always known if my rifle has fired.
Do I blow down my barrel after the shot? Yes I do...
Do I teach others to do as I do? No...
Have I ever seen any documentation on someone blowing their head off from blowing down their barrel, or someone elses? No...
Have I seen folks muzzle sweep the firing line when their ML fails to fire? Yes...
Do I visit while loading my rifle? No...
Do other people visit when they're loading? I've seen it happen...
I really have no opinion on blowing down the barrel, except I'll continue to do it. If that somehow endangers the person's off to my left or right,,, well,,, sorry.
I do ask that you don't barrel sweep me or step behind me to pick your nipple or nap your flint when your rifle fails to fire. Of that I would be appreciative of, as this is the most dangerous thing I've seen many a shooter's do when they have a misfire.
Post by: Old Salt on July 16, 2009, 03:00:12 PM
He told me he had never witnessed a powder flare during loading but had heard about an incident durung an NSSA rapid fire shoot.
I see how rapid reloading would be more prone to an unwanted discharge.
Salt
Post by: snake eyes on July 17, 2009, 09:13:13 AM
me.To you really fast loaders,it makes more sence
to blow from the bottom than to blow down the
barrel :shake
Post by: James Kelly on July 17, 2009, 12:51:25 PM
I think that covers it.
Post by: bushy on July 17, 2009, 03:34:44 PM
Love to shoot those smoke poles but I just point them at targets or game. This topic has been way overexposed. Gun Safety is your own right.
Bushy(Vaya Con Dios Amigo)Stay Well and Shoot Often
Post by: rollingb on July 17, 2009, 03:36:30 PM
Post by: Bigsmoke on July 17, 2009, 04:22:26 PM
Quote from: "rollingb"
My offer still stands,... ANYONE who can get my muzzleloaders to FIRE without LOADING them, can have them. :rotf :rotf :rotf :rotf
Post by: Uncle Russ on July 17, 2009, 06:10:46 PM
Quote from: "rollingb"
My offer still stands,... ANYONE who can get my muzzleloaders to FIRE without LOADING them, can have them. :lol:
Uncle Russ...
Post by: rollingb on July 17, 2009, 11:20:05 PM
Quote from: "bigsmoke"
Quote from: "rollingb"My offer still stands,... ANYONE who can get my muzzleloaders to FIRE without LOADING them, can have them. :rotf :rotf :rotf :rotf :)
BTW,... I require "RIBEYES'N TATERS" at least 3 times a day, but my choice of "drinks" is flexible and negotialble. :laffing :laffing
Post by: Uncle Russ on July 17, 2009, 11:32:04 PM
Quote
BTW,... I require "RIBEYES'N TATERS" at least 3 times a day, but my choice of "drinks" is flexible and negotialble.
Geeesh! Reckon I ain't going to ask ya to stop by on your way Bigsmoke's afterall. :rotf
Uncle Russ...
Post by: rollingb on July 17, 2009, 11:45:21 PM
Quote from: "RussB"
QuoteBTW,... I require "RIBEYES'N TATERS" at least 3 times a day, but my choice of "drinks" is flexible and negotialble.
Geeesh! Reckon I ain't going to ask ya to stop by on your way Bigsmoke's afterall. :rotf :rotf
Post by: Captchee on July 17, 2009, 11:52:34 PM
:shock: :lol:
Post by: mark davidson on September 15, 2009, 02:04:25 PM
Post by: wwpete52 on September 15, 2009, 02:12:12 PM
Post by: LRB on September 15, 2009, 02:25:29 PM
Post by: J.D. on September 17, 2009, 12:54:04 PM
I have seen a load whoosh as a powder charge was dropped into the bore, but never a problem with blowing down the barrel.
Every safety talk I have ever heard tells us that we should not load directly from the horn or flask, using only a measure to pour powder into the bore. The reason given is to prevent the horn from blowing up from any spark remaining in the bore.
IMHO, a spark remaining in the breech creates a MUCH higher chance of AD than blowing down the bore.
I suggest that those folks who do not want the muzzle pointing at your body parts, for any reason, should not shoot ML guns. There is absolutely no way that anyone can load a MLr without exposing some body part to the muzzle.
As always, common sense MUST prevail over rules and regulations inflicted by paranoid regulators.
God bless
Post by: James Kelly on September 17, 2009, 02:02:43 PM
You have a problem with paranoid?
Post by: Loyalist Dave on September 17, 2009, 03:29:06 PM
Quote
BTW,... I require "RIBEYES'N TATERS" at least 3 times a day, but my choice of "drinks" is flexible and negotialble.
NOW that study will require a control group, so I'm coming with my guns too, for the length of the study.
LD
Post by: bluelake on September 17, 2009, 08:07:58 PM
Sorry, I can't get that tune out of my head...
Post by: Bigsmoke on September 17, 2009, 08:15:07 PM
Post by: Uncle Russ on September 17, 2009, 08:51:55 PM
Quote
A one anna two anna, "Blow down the barrel. We'll have a barrel of fun!"
:rotf
Uncle Russ...
Post by: Lastmohecken on September 19, 2009, 08:49:57 PM
At any rate, my gun was as easy to load on the last round as the first and accuracy seem to hold it's own. But I changed a lot of things this time, so I doubt blowning down the barrel made much difference, but I did see stuff comming out the nipple, that would have still been in there, for the next shot.
Post by: snake eyes on September 20, 2009, 07:22:06 AM
Quote from: "Lastmohecken"
At any rate, my gun was as easy to load on the last round as the first and accuracy seem to hold it's own. But I changed a lot of things this time, so I doubt blowing down the barrel made much difference, but I did see stuff coming out the nipple, that would have still been in there, for the next shot.
So will you continue blowing down the barrel????
Post by: Lastmohecken on September 20, 2009, 08:38:59 PM
Lastmohecken
Post by: mark davidson on September 21, 2009, 10:13:32 AM
Post by: R.M. on September 21, 2009, 10:18:58 AM
Post by: mark davidson on September 22, 2009, 09:45:22 AM
Post by: James Kelly on September 22, 2009, 03:23:02 PM
There are, believe it or not, rather well established safety rules for handling guns. Since at least the 18th century it has been noted that "unloaded guns" do a fair amount of killing. Those with sufficient intelligence to follow established safety rules, such as promoted by the NRA & NMLRA, do not intentionally point any firearm, loaded or "not", at anything they don't want a hole through.
Personally I don't much care whether you suck or blow the muzzle, you will not do it on our DSC range.
Post by: Mitch on September 22, 2009, 04:34:05 PM
Post by: woodman on September 22, 2009, 04:41:46 PM
Woodman
Meant tounge in cheek as this is a silly discussion........Personaly I blow down the barrel as old habits are hard to break...and if you can't tell if your rifle gun has gone off ...then maybe ya should't be shootin any way..............
Post by: Capt. Jas. on September 22, 2009, 04:58:45 PM
Post by: rollingb on September 23, 2009, 05:25:51 PM
Quote from: "woodman"
I would like to know how you load your Muzzleloaders withiout putting a part of your body in front of the muzzle? Last time I looked the only way to hold a ramrod is in your hand there is no holder that I know of that allows you to load with out putting your hand in front of the barrel. What do you do decide which hand is expendeple.....
Woodman
Meant tounge in cheek as this is a silly discussion........Personaly I blow down the barrel as old habits are hard to break...and if you can't tell if your rifle gun has gone off ...then maybe ya should't be shootin any way..............
Them's my thoughts EXACTLY!! :bl th up
Post by: bushy on September 24, 2009, 07:56:29 AM
I do blow down my own barrel. I do not horseplay with my flinters. I do not point my flinters at anyone even over their heads. If I ever pointed a unloaded flinter over someones head at my range, I would be thrown off. If I was to point an unloaded flinter over my neighbours head the Police would be called and my guns would be taken.
So get off your high horses about gun safety and blowing down the barrel. If it was a safety issue as stated Re enacting would be banned. But again there is too much money in it and we all know money is what really counts. In reality boys and girls all loading procedures of a muzzleloader should be considered an unsafe practise. So do I continue with my hobby and shoot my flinters? You bet and I will suffer the consequences if and when they occur.
Bushy(Vaya Con Dios Amigos)Stay Well and Shoot Often
Post by: mark davidson on September 24, 2009, 09:35:55 AM
Post by: Uncle Russ on September 24, 2009, 10:16:31 AM
It is equally obivous by those who do that it has absolutely nothing to do with safety, and may even increase the "prevention" factor of an accident occuring.
We all must admit that safety is paramont in any shooting event, and we have all gotta respect the other persons opinion on safety issues...range related shooting incidents are rare indeed, whether black or smokeless, while hunting related incidents seem to increase proportinately with the increase of hunters in the field.....two totally different scienieros.
This is a long running thread, and there is a lot to be learned....if we remain civil to the others opinion.
Let's try very hard to keep the thread on track, and refrain from any "cheap shots'.....otherwise, it will be locked and removed, as we all know, or should know by now, that such behavior is not allowed on this forum.
Thanks for taking the time to read this.
Russ...
Post by: rollingb on September 24, 2009, 01:08:23 PM
A time,.... when the "rules of safety" were left up to each individual to watch out for his own life and well-being.
A time,.... when it was thought to be "rude" (or, even ludicrous) to force someone to do something (or, NOT doing something) because of some "unsubstantial occurence."
A time,.... when the "PERSONAL choices" a man made, were "HIS" choices alone and not DICTATED by others who thought differently.
A time,.... when the longrifle was a "daily tool", such as one might consider a hammer, power tool, (or etc.) today.
A time,.... when a man took responsibility for his own actions and "lived, or died, with the conseqences" of his PERSONAL decisions.
A time,.... that is all too fast disappearing, but still appreciated, and "longed for", by many of us who love traditional muzzleloaders.
Post by: mark davidson on September 24, 2009, 02:00:37 PM
Post by: rollingb on September 24, 2009, 03:17:18 PM
Next thing we'll know,... someone will try'n tell us that we can't shave with a straight razor (in camp) anymore, 'cause a 5 year-old kid might see us and try it themselves.
The new "rule" could even be posed under the false pretense that some adult at rendezvous actually sneezed while shaving and slit their throat back in 1982.
Another eample,... If I ride in to rendevous on horseback without wearing a riding-helmet,.... does that prevent someone else from teaching their kids to wear a safety helmet while riding horses?
..... or, will I be forced to wear a helmet while riding into rendezvous, in order to teach someone else's kids about "riding safety"?
..... what about the "safety" of kids shooting muzzleloaders and handleing "LEAD" balls with their bare hands while reloading,.... or, what about the safety concerns of teaching kids to handle "explosives" in the first place (after all,... that's what traditional muzzleloading consists of)????
..... when attending a shoot many miles from home, I'm much more concerned about getting into a traffic accident on the way there (and back), than I am about blowing down my barrel once I've arrived.
The list is endless where "safety" is an aspect of concern in this sport (or even "life in general"),.... and anybody that choses to avoid the risk of doing something dangerous, might just as well "play it safe" by staying home and watching tv.
I firmly believe that the "safety issue" of blowing down the barrel of a traditional muzzleloader should be a personal choice regarding the nature of the firearm itself (and traditional components), just like some other activitives in life.
Post by: mark davidson on September 25, 2009, 09:47:41 AM
Post by: tg on October 17, 2009, 08:42:19 PM
Post by: cb on October 17, 2009, 11:57:22 PM
[size=150]"THE SUBJECT THAT WOULD'NT DIE"[/size][/b]
coming soon to a drive in near you..............
How about a new one - Boxers or Briefs?????
I prefer a clout myself :shock:
sorry the meds must be kicking in.....
Post by: Minnesota Mike on October 19, 2009, 11:08:47 AM
I guess the bottom line is that no one really has any hard core documentation of such an incident having ever occured, although from a safety perspective it probably is not overly dangerous, but then again not amongst the brightest moves when working with a firearm.
So it's up to each individual shooter to chose whether or not to blow down the barrel of a discharged muzzleloader unless they are playing by current NMLRA guidelines which call that a no-no.
I appreciate everyone's input and frank dialogue . . . I'll see what I can come up with for another provocative topic . . . maybe the instant replay rule in football . . . or real grass versus astro turf . . . or - wait - I got it!! Will post in new topic!!
r/
MM
Post by: Hank in WV on October 19, 2009, 05:31:06 PM