Post by: Lastmohecken on October 11, 2009, 12:42:27 PM
In some ways, I could see how the 40 could really be a good deal, for someone who got out and took advantage of the squirrel season, and after using it for several days of eairly squirrel hunting, one could become very proficent with said rifle, and therefore be in top form, when the opportunity to take a deer came along in late October.
Of course the .62 fowler, or smooth rifle, could be used more or less in the same way. But there is one advantage to the 40, that I don't see with any other ML choice, and I wonder if that is not why simular calibers were so popular in the old Tenn rifles, etc.
And the one advantage, I see, is that you can be loaded with a ball that can eaisly take a squirrel, rabbit, bobcat, fox, coyote, or even a deer without having to change loads.
What are your thoughts?
Post by: Loyalist Dave on October 11, 2009, 12:55:26 PM
It is legal for game and deer in Maryland too. On another forum I was taken to task by suggesting that it works for deer because in the other person's opinion it was clearly a small game caliber.
I stopped using round ball for squirrels as there are too many homes near the hunting areas where I hunt that could get a ball on the roof, a window, or a parked car if I missed the squirrel or the limb it was on, and the ball went out of safe. I would like one made with a swamped barrel. Very light, and as you point out, very versatile.
I also read a discussion that wondered why .40 with a .390 ball, instead of a .41 with a .40 ball. Then one could get a smoothy done and do both shot and ball, use modern shot cups if they wanted, etc.
LD
Post by: Lastmohecken on October 11, 2009, 12:58:52 PM
We were talking about coondogs and birddogs, traping and the like. Times had been hard for him, as they were for many, and I remember him telling me that back then, most people wanted a hunting dog, that would go after anything, from a skunk or possum, to a coon or squirrel, etc. because no opportunity was to be dismissed, as all game had a use, either for food or to sell the hides.
Post by: Lastmohecken on October 11, 2009, 01:06:56 PM
Post by: tg on October 16, 2009, 05:17:37 PM
Post by: Loyalist Dave on October 16, 2009, 07:38:58 PM
As for specialization vs. multi-use guns, I love to show the folks when I teach Hunter Safety the one gun that does it all..., and I pull out the NEF single shot shotgun with screw in chokes. (It can be fitted with an aftermarket BP inline barrel too). They are generally amazed when I do this, and explain that big game may take a bit more skill and cunning, but a single shot 12 gauge with the new screw in chokes will do it all.
A good 12 gauge smoothie will too. From quail to geese to big game
LD
Post by: Mitch on October 16, 2009, 08:04:58 PM
Post by: pathfinder on October 16, 2009, 10:16:27 PM
(http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss42/pathfinder_01/th_guns009.jpg) (http://http)
Post by: Three Hawks on October 16, 2009, 11:25:27 PM
Three Hawks
Post by: Kermit on October 17, 2009, 11:36:34 AM
Anyone got one?
Post by: Minnesota Mike on October 19, 2009, 10:53:45 AM
Quote from: "pathfinder"
"Ole Wormy"
Okay - gotta ask about the name . . .
r/
MM
Post by: Lastmohecken on October 20, 2009, 11:12:21 AM
I keep thinking if I had a 40 cal, I would be more inclined to pop a few squirrels, at times, or maybe even just put the deer hunting on hold and go after the squirrels, sometimes. But then again, if one starts shooting squirrels, he probably isn't going to see much in the way of deer. But sometimes a good squirrel hunt with some action is a lot more fun then a slow deer hunt.
So, I think I may just have to give a .40 a try one of these days.
Post by: Bigsmoke on October 20, 2009, 12:56:13 PM
With that all said and done, I must admit that if I were going to get a rifle in a smaller caliber, it would be a .40. I have shot a few and have been impressed with their shooting ability and accuracy.
Besides, you can shoot the half scale silhouette match at Friendship with one.
In Idaho they are not legal for deer, elk, moose, bear, etc. Here in Kalifornia, heck, is any gun legal here for anything? Probably not.
Post by: SquirrelHeart on October 21, 2009, 10:27:16 AM
Post by: pathfinder on October 21, 2009, 11:11:23 AM
(http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss42/pathfinder_01/th_guns010.jpg) (http://http)
Post by: tg on October 21, 2009, 01:25:51 PM
My experience has been that as soon as you shoot a squirrel a nice buck will step out of the brush..happened twice in one season ten years ago, same season I chose not to buy a general Elk tag and had a nice leagal spike stand 20 ft from me when I was deer hunting with a .40. Murphy was working his MoJo that year. the only saving grace was a nice fork horn buck that I took within 30 yds of my truck as I finished the hunt for the day and was loading my gear into the canopy.
Post by: mark davidson on October 21, 2009, 02:50:31 PM
Post by: Mitch on October 21, 2009, 03:00:41 PM
Post by: huntinguy on October 21, 2009, 08:38:29 PM
Quote from: "mark davidson"
I'm still struggling to see round balls without making a relative comparasin to other centerfire projectiles. Even a big ole .54 cal. round ball is only 230 grains or about the same as a standard projectile for .45ACP which is pretty puny on the hunting scale. I'm not saying I am right; just new and having a hard time warming up to the smaller lighter stuff. I think my loaded down .62 would make a fine squirrel rifle! :-) Anything under 300 grains of projectile weight just does not inspire much confidence from me for anything bigger than a coyote. A .40 is often in my area hailed as a fine "target" rifle but I really do not see anybody around here trying to hunt deer with one. I have killed a few deer with .22 long rifle but that does not make it a good choice.
Well, I had the same opinion until I saw a bull elk lifted off the ground by a 54 cal. 230 gr. round ball. Load was 100gr fff. Range was 50 yards. Ball hit a rib, split in half and made two quarter size projectiles.
I have seen two bulls dropped with a single 50. cal RB. Longest shot was 110 paces. Bull went down like a switch was turned off.
I think the key is soft lead.
I don't think I would have a problem with a 40. on our local black tail at 50 to 75 yards. Mulies on the west side... I would think 45 to be minimum, but they be twice as big.
Post by: Loyalist Dave on October 21, 2009, 08:44:40 PM
Quote
.54 cal. round ball is only 230 grains or about the same as a standard projectile for .45ACP, And a .25-06 is half the weight of the .45 ACP projectile, but will slam deer. It's not the weight of the projectile alone, it's the weight and the velocity. A baseball weighs 5 ounces or 2175 grains, but even a 95 MPH fastball would probably not kill a deer.
According to a comparison of the GOEX data and the Hodgdon Reloading manual if you want equivalent modern metallic cartridges..,
The .54 round ball with 100 gr of 2Fg is equivalent to some handloads for a .35 Remington with a 220 grain projectile
The .50 round ball with 100 grains of 2Fg is equivalent to a 170 grain .30-30, with 80 grains of 2Fg is equivalent to a .38-55
The .45 round ball with 90 grainsof 3Fg is equivalent to the 6.5 Carcano (see JFK assassination)
AND the .40 round ball with 60 grains of 3Fg out performs the .25-35 Remington, and is equivalent to the .30 carbine.
The problem you get with such modern comparison is the bullets don't do the same as lead round ball, and not the same as lead alloy round ball..., the holes are bigger at the beginning in each case when using round ball, and the deformation is different too.
LD
Post by: tg on October 21, 2009, 09:29:15 PM
Post by: Minnesota Mike on October 22, 2009, 09:47:39 AM
r/
MM
Post by: Mike R on October 23, 2009, 05:15:40 PM
Post by: nessy357 on October 25, 2009, 07:51:50 PM
2 shots with my 40 cal 50 grs FFG
1 shot with my 62 cal 80 grs FFg
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/nessy357/Penetrationtests002.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/nessy357/Penetrationtests010.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/nessy357/Penetrationtests011.jpg)
All 3 shots penetrated pretty much the same distance, approx 3 "
Biggest difference being the massive "bruise" the 62 left.
Post by: tg on October 25, 2009, 09:01:35 PM
Good way to live, ya just forgot the part about shootin' them all now...
Post by: rickevans on October 25, 2009, 09:53:24 PM
Post by: Roaddog on October 26, 2009, 06:34:45 AM
Post by: nessy357 on October 26, 2009, 10:17:20 AM
normally i use 40 grs of FFFg , I thought I would bump it up to simulate a hunting load.Cheers Bob.
Post by: flintlock62 on November 21, 2009, 07:25:53 PM
Quote from: "tg"
It works fine on Deer if you get close as in archery hunting, I also found it to be OK for squirrels if you are going to head shoot of hit the middle there will be little difference between the .40 and .36
I agree with that statement. If one doesn't "bark" shoot a squirrel with a .36 or .40, it doesn't really matter. I, too have seen deer dropped at 50 yards. Good placed shots on deer with a small caliber does matter more than larger calibers though.
Post by: flintlock62 on November 21, 2009, 08:38:05 PM
Post by: Loyalist Dave on November 22, 2009, 10:16:41 AM
Quote
It [.40 round ball] works fine on Deer if you get close as in archery hunting
One of the problems with something like this quote is many folks don't understand what kind of range(s) we are talking about. 40 yards is the max for archery (imho) and the archers that I know who shoot at those ranges miss a lot of deer, and track a lot of deer. I'd say proper archery range is at 25 yards or less, while a .40 will reach out to 50 yards and kill deer with a 60 grain charge of 3Fg, with a standard heart/lung shot and a pure lead ball. On another forum, folks were upset at a popular writer who used a 50 grain BP charge with his .490 ball (iirc), but the critics paid no attention to the range that he chose to engage the deer, which always makes a difference.
(Note I mentioned the location of the impact with the .40, and the type of projectile. For example, go for a neck shot, or use a .390 ball made of wheel-weight alloy, or both, go for a long shot, and you change the parameters.)
Range vs. animal are always factors in ANY hunting, whether archery, or muzzleloader, or cartridge/shell firing gun. No matter what you use, a .45 caliber flinter or .458 Remington Magnum, you will reach a range where the bullet will not do the job. A hunter must know the limitations of the load that is being used in both accuracy and impact.
Many hunters, especially in the cartridge community [I have observed], try and substitute caliber and energy for accuracy and shot placement (imho). I have had conversations with folks who hunt Western PA, The MD Panhandle, and Northern WVA who say a .30-06 is mediocre, and a .338 magnum or 7mm Magnum is the way to go, while scoffing at the .270, .25-06, and the .30-30. They have told me that my .54 round ball just won't "knock 'em down", though none of them ever tried to hunt with one.
What is interesting I find is that some in our own group swear by a 125 grain .440 ball, but disdain a 90 grain .390 ball, which is a difference in weight of a .22 short's projectile, and a diameter of difference of a mere .05, with no discussion of powder charge, bullet material, shot placement.
The original question was about the advantage of using the same load for squirrels and for deer with the .40, and that being an advantage as one would know from long use where the bullet would go when aimed, and so not have to practice with two different loads. I think the popularity in one region of America of the .40 was due to it's accuracy allowing the user to be very confident of shot placement, while being very frugal in powder and lead use. So YES, it would work, if you knew how close you need to get the deer to allow for a quick, humane kill. In Maryland, today, the question would be moot, as the minimum powder charge is 60 grains of BP for deer, which is screaming fast in a .40, and a little hard on a bushy tail.
LD
Post by: Uncle Russ on November 22, 2009, 10:46:47 AM
Quote
but why is there so much discussion of centerfire vs. muzzleloading round balls on this thread?
LD certainly touched on it, and was in fact all over it. However, I will try to clarify a bit more.
Many black powder shooters get their start right here on this forum, and while they may be knowledgeable with the performance of modern firearms, they are at something of a loss when it comes to muzzleloaders.
Centerfire vs Muzzleloading discussions are permitted solely to put things into a perspective that can be better understood by those just starting out, or those with very little experience.
Those who have experience and has been shooting BP for a few years, no longer need or use the comparison, so the conversation turns more to subjects that they feel has improved their Muzzleloading experience.
Uncle Russ...
Post by: Daehenoc on November 28, 2009, 08:55:05 AM
(1) A long barreled 40 strongly loaded with round ball is certainly a better deer rifle than a 38-40 rifle.
(2) 40 rifles are fine for squirrel and rabbit if loaded properly and a smoothbore 40-41 would be great.
(3) 40 rifles are reknown for accuracy and flat shooting.
(4) The use of 40's is often forbidden.
Post by: flintlock62 on November 28, 2009, 09:07:41 AM
Post by: Mitch on November 30, 2009, 01:06:41 PM
Post by: mark davidson on November 30, 2009, 02:23:57 PM
Post by: Mitch on November 30, 2009, 03:33:16 PM
Post by: mark davidson on December 01, 2009, 12:16:19 PM
Post by: flintlock62 on December 02, 2009, 07:09:37 AM
Most of my deer hunting is definately close range. Most of my shots are within 50 yards easily, with the closest shot to date at about 10 yards. Here in this part of Tennessee, one usually can not get a long shot anyway because of the hills.
It is kind of over-kill sometimes when I use my .62 Hawken full stock, but I guess I just love that big ka-boom sound when I shoot it. But it does chew up the powder and lead. Man, powder is geting really expensive these days! The last powder I purchased was Swiss at $7.50/lb. My fifty pounds are now almost all gone and was shocked at the current prices. I guess I will change to KIK. The thing I like about the Hawken though, is it has the patent breech, which makes cleaning easier. I am getting lazy in my old age!
Post by: Captchee on December 02, 2009, 10:51:40 AM
We live in an age where bigger is better with no consideration of competence .
How many of us here remember a time when that was the opposite?
I can remember when a 30.30, 270 and 30.06 where the best big game rifles one could use .
Many ranchers carried something in the 22 range ..
The first muzzle loading rifles I ever built were converted cartridge guns
The first was an O3A3 with a low number barrel . The second was a 30.30 marlin that I got real sheep from a local gunsmith because it s receiver had been burnt in a fire .
For projectiles I made my own conical . I used the factory bullet shape . Carved it from wood and used that as a mould to make porcelain bullet moulds in Jr High art class . As I recall the 03 used a 190 grain bullet and the Marlin a 175 grain bullet.
I cant rightly recall how many deer and elk fell to those rifles , more then a few . I never ever thought of them being to small .
I shot those rifles the very same way I was taught to shoot by my father . Settle the front behind the shoulder and squeeze the trigger
Now granted our ranges were for the most part under 100 yards . Heck even for center fire I can only think of one time in growing up or for that mater tell today where shots were over maybe 50 yards .
When I first started muzzleloading a charge of 110 grains was a heavy load . Today it seems that many folks think they need 150 or 200+ . . Recommended calibers also have went the same way .
I think maybe we spend to much time today depending or relying on the mechanics of a given situation and less and less on maintaining quality of our own ability . .
I wish to quote a friend of mine who told me this once some years back while over then phone while discussing small calibers . His words were very true then
Quote
when it comes to small bore calibers , strange things begin to happen . small powder charges can produce very high pressures with very impressive velocities
You remember telling me that Uncle Russ
Post by: mark davidson on December 02, 2009, 11:25:16 AM
Post by: Captchee on December 02, 2009, 12:09:34 PM
how far do you expect deer to run when hit with a 30.30 ?
lest take a 36 cal rifle shooting a 125 gr buffalo bullet
with 70 grains of 3F she is leaving the muzzle at just over 1900fps and roughly 380-390 ftlbs at 100 yards .
compare that to a 50 cal round ball being fired with 120 grains of 2F is leaving the muzzle at 1790 and has 434 ftlbs at 100
now i ask you if one was to use a 170 grain conical in a 36 cal rifle .
and lets say we pumped that out of the muzzle at 1900fps
the very same velocities and projectile weight of a standard federal 30.30 load .
why do you think that projectile would produce any less of an expected effect ???????
See cause and effect is based on projectile and velocities , NOT type of loading procedure
The projectile does not care how it gets to a velocity it only cares that it gets there .
yet many folks will stand there and tell you with a strait face that the 36 cal muzzleloader is to small for big game with no qualification of the statment
So again I ask how far would you expect an animal to go when hit through the hart and lungs with a 170 grain 30 cal bullet which letf the muzzle at 1900 and doesn’t contact tell 100 ?
do you really exspect it to be less if you use a 40 cal in the same weight fired at the same volocities ?
Until I started muzzle loading 100 % some 15 years ago my only rifle was a 30.30 marlin .
The farthest I have had a bull elk go was 200 yards . But I also shot him at 175 yards .
Mule deer 0-maybe 20 yards when hit through the hart and lungs under 100 yards
.
As to not having the time ???
Sorry I don’t by that at all
One of the biggest sporting industries un the US right now is providing hunters with tools to scout pre season with . Everything from maps to , GPS , trail cameras , to scents. Attractants , you name it .
I also don’t recall spending all that much time in the field back in the days I was talking about . Not really anymore then today .
Time is what you make of it .
IMO folks spend to much time worrying about what if they see a giant buck of a life time at 300 yards over learning and enjoying the hunt
Post by: mark davidson on December 02, 2009, 12:53:13 PM
Everybody's needs and circumstances are different. I respect that. Time may not matter to you but it does to me. I still scout the old way with my feet not a map or gps or computer. I still work five days a week and get to hunt mostly on Saturday amid other family and home obligations. My gun suits my needs and I reckon that ought to be OK. I just don't think that me not shooting a mouse gun makes me a bad hunter or lazy or an incompetent woodsman or marksman. Finally lets not compare big heavy conicals with round balls in small calibers; they just ain't the same varmint.
Post by: Captchee on December 02, 2009, 01:03:08 PM
Post by: mark davidson on December 02, 2009, 01:35:16 PM
Post by: IronDawg on December 02, 2009, 02:58:13 PM
OH!! And before someone decides to jump my case (again) for bringing up centerfires?? Read several post by several different people above me. I aint start it. I'm just using it as examples and relations just as everyone else has done.
As far as views on the 40? in my limited experience if you can only own one rifle?? it's the rifle you need here in the south. I looked througha photo album of the gunmaker that built hers adventures with it. deer, bear, turkey, feral hogs,squirrels, groundhogs, coons, you name it he's killed it with that gun.
BUT! If you can own more than one?? I would say go a couple below and a couple above. In the old days I sure nuff bet she was the bees knees. But in my day?? The way I like squirrel and dumplins?? man she's just too rough on squirrel meat, perfect for poppin rabbit heads off though! Bark em?? aint gots no leave son the trees this time of year. 90% of our squirrels are runnin round on the ground diggin acorns outa leaf litter.
I iron sited a crow with mine two days before thanksgiving at 135 steps. I'll never part with mine. And even though she may not be the first rifle I reach for to go deer hunting?? She's definately my absolute favorite to shoot and hunt with.
Post by: mark davidson on December 02, 2009, 03:39:13 PM
Post by: IronDawg on December 02, 2009, 05:12:13 PM
I tell ya though me 40 flinter has one of them barrels that you can singe fur with at 20yds (it's LONG!) and she sure made pretty music as well.
I gotta buddy that shoots a 97# bow, and when I ask him why cuz his deer aint no deader than mine he says "cuz I can" LOL!
You should get you a 40 and consider it, buffler bore on groundhogs and have some summer fun.
Post by: Captchee on December 02, 2009, 06:27:48 PM
mater of fact he want a big bull eather . just a rag horn 4 on one side and 5 on the other .
i learned along time ago that when it comes to elk . them boys can take alot of lead and and still leave you wondering if you hit them at all . i have also seen them drop right in their tracks with rifle smaller then the one i used above .
personally i dont nor do i think anyone else cares what or how much you use .
if you want a wall gun , ha 2 thumbs up to ya . thats just the way of it now days and if thats how your stick floats so be it .
as to being tired ?? ya i think i can relate .
In fact it’s the very reason this organization was founded .
A group of us were just flat tiered of hearing how one had to have a given rifle with a 500 + grain conical and 2 lbs of powder .
How our old rifles shooting RB were not capable of killing cleanly or ethically .
Maybe , just maybe there is something to learn ??? I don’t know .
Good luck to you though .
Now back to the 40 cal question . As I stated a few posts back before we got all sidetracked on bigger is better .
The 40 will do just fine within its given limitations . Be it with a RB or bumped up with large conical.
As Dave showed and I tried to show . . When your velocities and projectile weights enter into the realm of center fire calibers that are more then acceptable of the animal your interested in . there is simply no reason that you should not exspect to see like returns from a muzzleloader . none ,,, none at all
Post by: Lastmohecken on December 02, 2009, 09:16:59 PM
I think I just may have to give a 40 a chance one of these days. I have always used 54's for muzzleloading, when it came to deer, but I did get to take a few squirrels with a .62 Fowler, using shot, and that was a hoot.
Normally, I am a big caliber fan, within reason, but I find the idea of the 40 interesting, espacally for Arkansas, since it's legal for both deer and small game, but this may be more academic then anything else. But one advantage to me that does seem very real is the opportunity to get very proficent with one gun, to the point that, it's second nature to place a very accurate shot, under any resonable condition.
The other thought is unlike the .62 fowler, which I must load with shot for squirrel to be legal, and would pretty much void my chances to take the occasional coyote, while squirrel hunting, the right load in a 40 could take both. So, I find this very attractive for eairly season squirrel hunting.
Post by: Daehenoc on December 02, 2009, 10:30:36 PM
Wish in one hand...
Post by: IronDawg on December 02, 2009, 11:11:45 PM
I'm tellin ya my knowledge and experience with side locks is pretty limited. But I absolutely positively ADORE my 40 flinter. It has to be the absolute funnest rifle I've ever shot. Not to mention is is as stated above a tack driving flat shooting good killing gun.
And I realize another reason it was so well liked in earlier times. In all honesty ONE PRB and ONE powder charge for my 54 is pretty much equal to TWO PRBS and TWO powder charges in my 40. Powder goes alot lot farther!!
Cap,
I sure hope you didn't take offense or misread something I wrote. You are the absolute last person I would want to offend or tick off at me on this or any other site.
BTW enlighten a newbie here. I've heard the expression before. But what is a "wall gun"??
Post by: bluelake on December 03, 2009, 02:03:28 AM
Quote from: "IronDawg"
BTW enlighten a newbie here. I've heard the expression before. But what is a "wall gun"??
There's a long thread on them: http://www.traditionalmuzzleloadingassociation.org/forum/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=2312
Post by: Captchee on December 03, 2009, 06:55:01 AM
Quote
Cap,
I sure hope you didn't take offense or misread something I wrote. You are the absolute last person I would want to offend or tick off at me on this or any other site.
BTW enlighten a newbie here. I've heard the expression before. But what is a "wall gun"??
_________________
no worries Irondawg . there is no issue .
you will find that we sometimes disagree around here on a few things.
, no worries .
blue lake covered the wall gun well i think
Post by: mark davidson on December 03, 2009, 09:15:39 AM
Post by: IronDawg on December 03, 2009, 04:40:27 PM
Quote from: "mark davidson"
If I find out I can use a .40 here in MS for squirrels then I might well round me up one as I am wanting a squirrel rifle anyway. Anyway, interesting thread and maybe I will behave better today! :-)
You better!! :lol:
But ya know what Mark?
a 40 for you and squirrels would be a match made in heaven bro. Cuz my results show my 40 to be overkill for squirrels. he he he
Post by: Mitch on December 03, 2009, 05:47:43 PM
Post by: Kermit on December 03, 2009, 07:51:37 PM
Post by: mark davidson on December 04, 2009, 09:58:08 AM
Mitch, do you ever miss a prairie dog head at 100+? Ever shoot a little high or a couple of inches right or left or maybe low in the body instead of in the head? On a p-dog those little misses are no big deal. On deer those misses, those little errors at 100+ yards translate into a shot off jaw or an open gash across the top of the nose or worse. I've shot plenty of prairie dogs with a 20 power leupold on a good .22-250 and I must say I missed pretty regularly. Congratulations, you must be quite a shot with that .40 of yours.
Post by: Mitch on December 04, 2009, 11:16:20 AM
Post by: mark davidson on December 04, 2009, 12:04:27 PM
Post by: Captchee on December 04, 2009, 12:11:41 PM
Much smaller the a prairie dog.
A big one Might be total body size , ½ the size of a mule deer head .but on average about the size of a dollar bill
Their heads might be as big as a 50 cent piece .
Yet sometimes that all you get a shot at ,.
Around here in the spring the things are everywhere . People build rifles for no other purpose then shooting whistle pigs
100 yards is might far for those little fellas . Most time its 25 to 50 yards .
But we do have a place over in vale we go to where we set up with out muzzleloaders on top of a limestone 75 ft bluff and shoot down into the area bellow .
It doesn’t look that far. Myself I never though about how far we were shooting .
Last fall a fella came out with a bench set up and cartridge gun that he built just for whistle pig shooting . He lasered some of the shots fellas were making .
I myself was greatly surprised
But it all depends on what you used to shooting at and how often you shoot .
One of the things we shoot a lot of here is paper towel tubes with little quarter size orange dots on them . Its great fun . We shoot at them both rested and off hand
Try it some time .
When I tell you that there are guys that can with open iron sights consistently hit the mark , im not exaggerating at all .
Myself I can hit the Tube at 50 consistently but I have a hard time hitting that dang little dot .
But little Mark . That dog gone guy can hit that dot out so far my entier sight covers the tube .
In fact here is a story for you that can be substantiated by TMA member False ears or Erwin warden . Some of the folks here know both these folks .
A bunch of us got together one Saturday and was shooting grass clumps on a sand hill side some 250 yards out .
Erwin gets this bright idea of anteing up 75 bucks for a starting pot . Then charging 5 bucks for 3 shots for this event .
Now mind you we have a big clear hill that’s probably a good 800ft as a back stop .
The even was to shoot clays with out rifles . The person hitting a flying clay got the pot .
Little mark steps up and say Ill take that money if you want to lose it .
Some of us were like ahhhya right . Then his brother inlaw stepped up and advise against putting any money down if little mark was going to shoot . That started an argument of course .
But to make a long story short we did end up shooting clays just to prove the point .
When ,Little Mark , shooting a 45 cal CVA Kentucky popped his first clay out of the air . I call BS luck .
When he then proceded to knock down 3 more , one right out of the other . I went back put my rifle away and had a beer .
I have seen that man pop clays consistently when placed clear out there on that very sand hillside ,. Off hand , with that CVA rifle
You want to know the real rubb for me about it . The bugger hardly ever shoots . I kid you not . Most times he is working his cows .
We see him most times we only see him just before hunting season .
Damdest shooter I have ever seen .
When he comes around . I put my money as deep into my pockets as I can .
There is another fella that the same folks I listed above can test to watching stand toe to toe against a trap club champion shooting a very high end Benelli .
The guy opened his mouth one to many times about how in effective BP guns were while watching our annual trap shoot .
They went toe to toe and ended clear off the trap course and out in the parking lot while we all stood back and watched .
The end result , the guy with the benelli was sitting down and proclaiming how he though he could get out of the range of the BP gun .
It did not happen .
Again this can be attested to by people on this board who were there , and like myself watched .
Post by: mark davidson on December 04, 2009, 12:27:25 PM
Post by: Riley/MN on December 04, 2009, 12:32:37 PM
Quote from: "mark davidson"
... Now that I know what some folks are capable of though, I bet I will be burning some powder trying to get at least in the ball park with such shooters as you describe...
Post by: Captchee on December 04, 2009, 02:31:28 PM
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/delete220.jpg)
Post by: Mitch on December 04, 2009, 03:40:34 PM
Post by: Kermit on December 04, 2009, 06:50:10 PM
A couple of friends and I started shooting at crackers a few years back. Crows do the cleanup. Started as a rimfire game, but moved to other things, including frontstuffers for me--they didn't own one.
Hint--saltines are cheaper and easier to see at 75-100 yards than Ritz.
We called it "sporting crackers."
Post by: Loyalist Dave on December 04, 2009, 11:21:55 PM
Oh yeah, BTW, folks out east build special rifles, and then spend money to go out to ID, SD, And ND and shoot PD's and WP's. It's like an obsession with them. Not that I am using obsession in a bad way...,
LD
Post by: flintlock62 on December 05, 2009, 06:21:45 AM
Post by: Captchee on December 05, 2009, 07:53:01 AM
Quote from: "Loyalist Dave"
GOOD GOSH MAN! I HAVE BEEN THROWING TUBES AWAY FOR DECADES! :notworthy
Oh yeah, BTW, folks out east build special rifles, and then spend money to go out to ID, SD, And ND and shoot PD's and WP's. It's like an obsession with them. Not that I am using obsession in a bad way...,
LD
you want a real challenge , save the Toilet paper tubes :P
yep kermit crackers are fun . so are chrcoal brickets and golf balls
ever done that in the winter ?
in January when it get real cold and the snow builds a hard crust , we shoot a round of golf .
we use the bright orange balls . you get 3 shots and you have to shoot where it lays .
we line the balls all up at 15 yards. .
1 shot you hit will send the ball flying normally another 25-30 yards .
then you shoot where it lays . for good or bad thats your shot .
the person with the ball farthest from the start line after 3 shots wins .
Naa folks , really IMO a caliber is only as good as the person shooting it .
The hart and lungs are a pretty darn big target . Yet its amazing how many cant seem to hit even that . Not just with a muzzleloader either
Small caliber rifles have been more the adequate for who knows how long . They will continue to be so . With the price of lead and powder these days , they may just become even more adequate
Post by: mark davidson on December 07, 2009, 10:08:52 AM
Post by: Captchee on December 07, 2009, 06:49:26 PM
the above are off hand @50 .
the only reason i have the above photos is that it was the best shooting i have done off hand in along time
crackers we shoot normal at 25 or more.
the thing is thos that when we are shooting where we dont have longer ranges , we go to smaller targets .
ever try splitting a playing card , off hand at 15 yards ?
we also always shoot tiebreaker these can be from 10 to 20 yards and normaly 3x5 cards . always off hand
here is one of mine from a couple months back .
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/delete002.jpg)
take this past Saturday .
our local club shot a steel trail 20 shots
those targets range from 10 yards to 150 yards , all off hand
the smallest target is at 10 yards and is no bigger the a quarter . its worth 3 points .
now this is part of what’s called a triple teaser . So there are 3 targets . One about the size of a grapefruit , woth 1 point . A second about the size of a tennis ball worth 2 points and then the little 3 pointer .
You call your shot .
If your going to be anywhere in the top 5 places , you better hit the little 3 pointer .
We also shoot chains at 15-30 yards . Just a simple tier chain , hung from a limb . You only get 1 point for those
Now our 150 yard target is 2x2 steel . Also only 1 point . We do have one target that at 250 yards and that’s a large oxygen cylinder . Also shot off hand .
Now after shooting that when you come down the trail you shoot your tiebreaker .
Last weekend we also had to shoot the very top 3/8 of an inch ball from a n old cloths pin
1 point for the cloths pin and 1 point for cutting skull on the elk . Cutting horns does not count .
Then we turned around and shot at a target that was at about 20 yards . But it had a twist . The target was on the back side of a wood cable spool . You not only had to hit the target but could not cut wood . So you had to thread your ball through the 3 inch hole to the clangor .
Then we turned around and shot 4 shot at a 8X10 sheet of paper with 3 apples that were about 2x2 , also at 25 yards
Toal there was a possible of 30 points .
I came off the trail with 27 and was in 5th place .
But I made up for it on the hawk and knife and ended up in first wit 37 out of 44 possible .
Now sometimes , we shoot PEEPS that’s right those little marshmallow Easter peeps,.
We stick them on the limbs of bushes and shoot then at 25-30 yards
As I said , when out ranges are short , our targets are very small .
Try it some time . See how easy it is to split a playing card at 15 yards . By bets was 5 cards in 5 shots and I lost to a fella who shot 7 cards in 7 shots .
The point is , if your don’t have the range to practice for distance , then make you targets real small . It will teach you to control your sight and pick one small spot , not the whole target .
thats where paper shooter often fail on the trail . without a defined place to shoot , they just shoot at the whole target .
It will also teach you how to control your sights for when you have those longer shots that the front sight either almost or completely covers . You will be surprised
Post by: Captchee on December 07, 2009, 07:22:53 PM
we also shoot those little steelhead corks tied on mono line at 25 yards . usualy there are 9 of those and you have to shoot the bottom one and work up . you cat the group down and you only get scored for the ones you hit prior .
its not uncommon to find that you actualy have cut the fishing line with a ball , yet never hit the cork . :lol:
Post by: Kermit on December 07, 2009, 08:30:53 PM
Post by: mark davidson on December 08, 2009, 10:20:06 AM
Post by: Captchee on December 08, 2009, 11:01:32 AM
Post by: mark davidson on December 08, 2009, 12:17:48 PM
Post by: followed by on December 21, 2009, 05:49:20 PM
Post by: mike rumping on December 22, 2009, 02:57:51 AM
Post by: shademtman on December 22, 2009, 06:38:32 AM
Post by: Loyalist Dave on December 22, 2009, 07:30:05 AM
Quote
the only accurate comparison between a modern projectile and a round ball would be if you had the same weight and same velocity
Well the weights are quite close between the 170 grain .30-30 and the 177-180 grain .490 round ball, as well as the heavier bullets available for the .35 Remington and the 225 grain .530 round ball. The .357 magnum "works" with a light bullet for the .390 RB and with medium weight bullets for the .440 RB. The specific cartridges are mentioned as they are often "familiar" to the modern shooter who is part of the conversation. All the cartridges are factory loaded faster than the BP loads will perform in most barrels, but the reloading data shows the bullet weights and velocities do cross when hand loading. Many of the .357 factory loads from rifles with 20" barrels actually are under velocity when compared to the .390 or .440 BP loads. (Usually the person who is not well versed with BP is asked if they would consider hunting deer at 100 yards or less with a .30-30, a .35 Remington, or even a .357 Magnum in a lever-gun..., and the conversation continues from there.)
AND as was pointed out..., it is a crude comparison, and done for those not well versed in BP performance. For, as is well known, even when using all lead bullets, the cartridge bullets are harder and have thinner cross sections so penetrate better but mushroom or deform less. Still there have been those who on other forums or other threads have wondered about the .530 RB as it's very close to the projectile weight and diameter of a .45 ACP. I use it as a way of getting the ill informed to understand that there is much more to it than caliber.
And shot placement is the key to both black powder as well as cartridge guns.
LD
Post by: Captchee on December 22, 2009, 07:36:49 AM
Post by: Loyalist Dave on December 22, 2009, 07:44:43 AM
When I hit the Power Ball I will set up a private lab, and pull in some physics and ballistic guys from U of MD and maybe Goddart Space Flight Center in Greenbelt MD, and really get into RB's as they were abandonded when cartridges came along right at the same time scientific research started to get useful.
LD
Post by: Captchee on December 22, 2009, 07:59:33 AM
never ending lol .