Post by: shademtman on December 21, 2009, 01:34:14 PM
Post by: BEAVERMAN on December 21, 2009, 01:36:53 PM
Post by: Old Salt on December 21, 2009, 02:10:33 PM
Sitting Fox has a pretty good selection of everyday guns at very reasonable prices. He keeps his costs down with plain stock wood.
Pecatonica has a good selection too.
Salt
Post by: pathfinder on December 21, 2009, 02:18:59 PM
Post by: shademtman on December 22, 2009, 06:06:19 AM
Post by: Capt. Jas. on December 22, 2009, 08:18:27 AM
Post by: Old Salt on December 22, 2009, 09:08:43 AM
Quote from: "shademtman"
Tip Curtis??? does he have a website??
No he does not have a website. If you have an idea what you want to buy just give him a call.
I've dealt with him on two occasions and spoken with him on several others. He has a greater selection of barrels, locks, and stock patterns than any other supplier.
Here's a copy of one of his adds.
Quote
Tip Curtis Frontier Shop - Tip Curtis Frontier Shop - TIP CURTIS FRONTIER SHOP COLERAIN SWAMPED BARRELS: 31", 38", 42", 44" - $190.00 & up. COLERAIN OCT TO ROUND: 36", 38", 42", 44", 46" - $210.00 & up. All barrels available in .40 caliber to .62 caliber rifled or smoothbore. GREEN MOUNTAIN BARRELS: 36", 42" - .32 caliber to .62 caliber rifled or smoothbore – ¾", 13/16", 7/8", 15/16", 1", 1 1/8" - $120.00 & up. GREEN MOUNTAIN SWAMPED BARRELS: 38", 42", 44" - .32, .36, .40, .45, .50, .54 caliber - $180.00 & up. GREEN MOUNTAIN DROP-IN BARRELS FOR THOMPSON CENTER – ROUND BALLS: 15/16", 1" - $190.00 in .32, .40, .45, .50 & .54 caliber. Blued breech barrel includes sights, thimbles & ramrod. GREEN MOUNTAIN PISTOL BARRELS: ¾", 13/16", 7/8", 15/16" in.32, .36, .40, .45, .50 & .54 caliber - $60.00. Percussion locks $90.00 & up. Flintlocks $130.00 & up. CUSTOM GUN-KITS - Pistol kits - $390.00 & up. Straight barrel rifle kits - $625.00 & up. Smoothbore rifle or fowler kits - $725.00 & up. Swamped barrel rifle kits - $725.00 & up. Over 130 patterns to choose from. P.O. Box 203, Cross Plains, TN 37049, (615) 654-4445.
Post by: Captchee on December 22, 2009, 09:46:23 AM
Post by: shademtman on December 22, 2009, 05:18:03 PM
Captchee..... guess i didn't really have a set price.... but i suppose under 750.00$ sound about right?.... there are kits much cheaper, but as mentioned i think you get what you pay for.... and would be nice to put something together that is..."historically accurate?" as the term is used. so i guess 750.00.. lock, stock, and barrel...
thanks
Post by: Captchee on December 22, 2009, 05:25:37 PM
Post by: Capt. Jas. on December 22, 2009, 06:03:23 PM
Post by: Captchee on December 22, 2009, 06:30:13 PM
Quote from: "Capt. Jas."
Also be careful about wood. Some fall for the curl and end up with a piece soft as a sponge.
yep
Post by: shademtman on December 22, 2009, 06:30:31 PM
Post by: BEAVERMAN on December 22, 2009, 07:44:40 PM
Post by: bluelake on December 22, 2009, 07:58:28 PM
http://www.sittingfoxmuzzleloaders.com/k/K2%20Appalachian%20Poor%20Boy%20Rifle/K2%20Appalachian%20Poor%20Boy%20Rifle.htm
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_162_193&products_id=2024
Post by: Captchee on December 22, 2009, 08:20:16 PM
paying an inletting fee , doesnt mean the parts are inlet .
so unless your ready to do alot of work, do the hard inletting , soldering m drilling, taping and final shapping .
your probably better of with the pedersoli .
IMO if your ok with doing all the above you will have a nicer rifle from sitting fox
Post by: shademtman on December 23, 2009, 07:24:03 AM
Post by: Kermit on December 23, 2009, 10:42:20 AM
Post by: shademtman on December 23, 2009, 04:02:25 PM
actually the inletting and various other, time consuming task are within my capibility's i have done a number of start to finish rifles, that were only parts and unshaped stock blank.... nice if ya have alot of time....one of these day's soon it's going to warm up enough to go back to work..(i hope).... so don't know if i'm ready to get into a long project.... probably go pre inletted this time around. I still want the option to stain of my choice and brown the barrel...if i'm not mistaken the pedersoli kit comes with a blued barrel right..??
Post by: Captchee on December 23, 2009, 04:42:14 PM
jim chambers is the only one i know who actual does inletting , when you ask for it .
so if your looking for something where just finish shaping and finsh are needed , the the pedersoli is the way you should go .
asymbolies from the likes of sitting fox , ToW , pecatoncia river do not come inlet , even when you pay to have them inlet
Post by: shademtman on December 24, 2009, 06:50:44 AM
Post by: Old Salt on December 24, 2009, 06:09:56 PM
Quote from: "Captchee"
asymbolies from the likes of sitting fox , ToW , pecatoncia river do not come inlet , even when you pay to have them inlet
I'm not sure I understand this.
If I pay any one of these companies to inlet parts and they don't come inlet then how does a person describe it?
Salt
Post by: BEAVERMAN on December 24, 2009, 06:47:27 PM
Post by: Captchee on December 24, 2009, 07:41:40 PM
Post by: shademtman on December 25, 2009, 06:48:18 AM
Post by: bluelake on December 25, 2009, 07:55:11 AM
Quote from: "shademtman"
does anyone know.... if the pedersoli kit comes with the barrel already blued??.....i would like to brown the barrel, this time around... not blue.
According to DGW:
Quote
Barrel is blued, Octagon ,35 1/16” length with a 1 in 56” twist.
Post by: Captchee on December 25, 2009, 08:49:57 AM
Post by: Old Salt on December 25, 2009, 09:54:45 AM
Quote from: "BEAVERMAN"
they hog out the areas such as the lock mortise, barrel channel, and trigger with a template and a router, you have to do the final fit
I bought my first longrifle kit from Wayne Dunlap. I would say those parts were pre inlet although not to the extent of a Lyman GPR. The inletting for all the brass furniture was hogged out, as you say, but to such a close tolerance that very little work was needed for a good fit. Of course the breech area and tang needed considerable work and I spent plenty of time on the butt plate to make the best fit. I changed the trigger to a double set trigger so that obviously required more work. I don't recall having to do much on the lock..
Even on an in-the-white rifle I bought from Tip Curtis I put more time into the butt plate and toe plate for a better finish. And I worked on the lock mortise to get the best match up with the barrel.
My Sitting Fox kit was only preinlet for the barrel and ramrod, but I chose that option.
I guess what I'm trying to tell shademtman is to shop around and talk to the dealers. Most of the suppliers will do eveything possible to accomodate you.
If you buy a Lyman or Pedersoli kit for example, you'll be dealing with a distributor.
Salt
Post by: shademtman on December 26, 2009, 07:29:41 AM
Post by: crow killer on December 26, 2009, 10:36:33 AM
Quote from: "shademtman"
ya know, i actually thought about a lyman GPR, also.....brown the barrel, mabye a little carving just to personalize a bit, anyone got one? how's the lock on a gpr? what size flint do they use?
i have a GPR, it was the first rifle i built, and it still has a warm spot in my hart. the lock is ok, sparks enough to go off every time (if i keep the patent breech clean). i alway meant to up grade the lock and triggers (L&R makes a replacement lock, and Davis makes replacement triggers) but i just never got around to it. i actaully go a little big on my flints and use 3/4". its still my "go to" rifle. when i did mine i did a few things a bit different, i did a vinegar finish on all the metal (a really tough finish!). i wish i had done more work to the comb and cheeck piece, as i have a really well built hawkens and i can see the diferance now. i can tell you this, the GPR is an easy build, and you will enjoy shooting it for years to come!
heres mine
(http://i914.photobucket.com/albums/ac350/karwelis/my%20guns/gpr002-1.jpg)
Post by: shademtman on December 26, 2009, 05:24:20 PM
nice rifle.......how did you go about your "Vinegar finish"... iv'e never heard of that.
Post by: shademtman on December 26, 2009, 06:47:16 PM
Post by: tg on December 26, 2009, 09:35:18 PM
Post by: tg on December 26, 2009, 11:40:10 PM
Post by: Two Steps on December 27, 2009, 07:18:16 AM
Quote
captchee...
actually the inletting and various other, time consuming task are within my capibility's i have done a number of start to finish rifles, that were only parts and unshaped stock blank..
umm...I don't think we're talking about a "newbie" builder here. I believe the original question was
Quote
best kit for the money.... lock, stock and barrel...tenesee valley? jim chambers.... ?
Al
Post by: Captchee on December 27, 2009, 10:24:52 AM
Quote
I doubt that they are better than Chambers and Jims offer a more completed product from the beginning,probably giving them the edge for less skilled or experienced buiders as we
Tip Curtis makes a good product TG .
But as you said , they are not better then Jims .
I would agree with that whole heartedly .
as to the rest .
i would agree , nothing wrong with the Lyman rifles ..
Reasonable quality .
For the western fur trade , IMO a reasonable representation for the most part of a plains rifle
as to throwing someone who has never built a rifle onto a custom?
well that depends on alot of things .
if they apprenticed, I see no reason not . But custom is Not what we are speaking of here .
As to semi customs. As has been shown here on this forum . Someone with little or no knowledge , with the help of the gunsmiths and experienced builders here . The do produce very nice pieces
One of the reasons I myself recommend Jim chambers is that while his items are up there , an inexperienced person can complete one of his rifles just as easy as a Lyman or any other production gun .
With Jims rifles , you get what you pay for . You pay for inletting , then the parts are inlet and inlet correctly . You pay for drilling , you get drilling .
You pay for a gun in the white , that’s what you get . When you open the box , what you see is so close to being ready to stain and oil , its mind blowing .
No harder to assemble then any kit gun on the market,.
Yet, one gets a very quality lock . Plus all the options in choices of barrels from some of the very best barrel makers in this country .
They also get a product that has a solid historical foundation . If that’s what they are looking for .
Myself I buy most all my semi customs from Pecatonica river .
I have a lot more work into them . But I can provide a product that for a base rifle is completely finished. For little more then the cost of one of jims assemblies.
Just like Jim, if I tell dick what wood I want , that’s what I get .
Now if im building a full custom for a customer . that’s a complete different story .
Depending on the lock needed , I MIGHT get it from Jim Chambers .
I Might get a barrel from Barbie Chambers . Ed Rayl or any number of others all the way up to Demas in England .
The Hardware for the most part comes from the rifle shop .
If not I do my own castings or have 1 of two local blacksmiths forge it
Stock woods come from any number of places . Canadian hardwoods. Tiger maple ,High desert hardwoods Or from my own stockpile of Black and English walnut .
For instance , right now im working on a custom stock for a original Moore SXS .
The customer wanted the stock to be done in Black Limba
The point is fellas , there are any number of very good places to purchase from .
But we should not confuse a semi custom with custom. Nor should we confuse a production gun like a Pedersoli /Investment arms / Lyman , with a semi custom from the likes of Jim chambers or Tip Curtis .
I would also tell you all this . If you ever have to replace a part on one of the Pedersoli rifles OR any of their sub companies . You Will pay either the same price or in many cases more then the cost of a simi custom
Take the Pedersoli Blue Ridge / Frontier rifle/ Hatfield . In 2004 the price for a barrel for that rifle in 50 cal was 350.00 +shipping .
Do you al realize you can get a rice barrel for that cost .
The stocks ran 325.00------525.00 depending if you wanted walnut or maple
The locks back then were 115.00 . .
Basically 20.00 more then what you could get a jim chambers for back then . With no where near the quality
Note also those prices are before the dollar lost its value
Post by: AZ Longrifle on December 27, 2009, 10:26:31 AM
Can you please PM/email me Tip Curtiss' contact info, phone or email?
I'm a Gun Dealer in AZ.
Thank you, Sir!
Curt
AZ Longrifle
Post by: Captchee on December 27, 2009, 10:36:14 AM
why PM it . place it here for anyone who is interested
Tip Curtis
P.O. Box 203, Cross Plains,
TN 37049,
(615) 654-4445.
tipcurtis@bellsouth.net
Post by: AZ Longrifle on December 27, 2009, 10:39:01 AM
Post by: Captchee on December 27, 2009, 10:39:32 AM
Post by: Capt. Jas. on December 27, 2009, 11:16:24 AM
Quote from: "crow killer"
Quote from: "tg"I will have to dissagree about Chambers as they are presented they are top of the line in authenticity and quality, one does not have to ask which parts to buy for a particular type of gun. I have heard that Curtiss has good parts sets but I doubt that they are better than Chambers and Jims offer a more completed product from the beginning,probably giving them the edge for less skilled or experienced buiders as well.
i wish you hadnt said this, cuz im gonna "Censored Word Deleted" you off, i just know it! you my friend are not a gun builder. you have NO experence buying parts sets from either. at this level they arent kits, they are parts sets. ive built guns from both, and tips are more historically accurate, the castings are better, you get a better quality of wood than you would expect to recieve. and with tip you have got way better selection than jim chambers! if i never build a chambers gun again, well im ok with that. the reason people go with chambers instead of curtiss is real simple, chambers has a flashy website that you can look at and order(back order on lots of stuff) and ole tip just has a phone # and can be hard to contact.
my point here TG is if you aint built both dont give your opinion! if you do your research you'll find jims guns arent all that HC!
I DO have experience buying parts from both. I will take Chambers hands down. I really can't see why anyone would think the chambers website flashy either.
As an aside, Has anyone ever heard that the Siler lock Tip sells do not parts swap with any other Siler parts?
Post by: Old Salt on December 27, 2009, 04:11:57 PM
Quote from: "tg"
We have gone from Chambers probably the best out there particularly if PC/HC is a consideration, to Pedorsoli then Lyman Great Plains, a very wide sweeping range of cost, price and authenticity, I suggest making a list of what you expect to use the gun for, and look at the various levels of parts sets or kits available and see which will suit your needs the best.
I was thinking the same thing.
:lol:
Lets see we are making recommendations to an experienced builder and now Tip Curtis contact information is listed twice on this thread.
Regarding Tip's Siler locks he recently told me he sells a large Siler built by M&G. I can't honestly answer if the parts are inter changeable with other large Siler locks. But judging from his description over the telephone IMHO the internal parts won't interchange with a Chamber's Siler. I have an M&G lock on a boy's rifle and I hope the M&G large Siler is as good.
shademtman,
I don't have any experience with TVM or Chambers kits. I know people who have built both. The results depend mostly on who puts them together.
Salt
Post by: flintlock62 on December 27, 2009, 04:54:38 PM
Post by: Gambia on December 27, 2009, 05:38:21 PM
Post by: Captchee on December 27, 2009, 06:31:21 PM
WE ,,,,, don’t care how many times there is information provided or for that mater how many times someone mentions a given builder .
For that mater how many times a topic is discussed or a question ask .
Also since when do we allow such arrogance !!!!
Every person here has a say and an opinion. From the newest person to the most experienced .
If you don’t like what your reading , then your more then welcome not to read it .
If you don’t like someone’s opinion then say you disagree and nothing else
It seems some here have forgotten the rules .
Or maybe the situation is more to the fact that some don’t care
Well I care and YOU WILL FOLLOW THE RULES .
So leave the attitudes at the door or don’t come through . Its that simple
Post by: rickevans on December 27, 2009, 06:39:24 PM
Keep up the debate, but let's not get Capchee's BP up any higher. Civil and honest opinions. I love this site.
Post by: tg on December 27, 2009, 08:56:33 PM
Post by: Old Salt on December 27, 2009, 10:53:24 PM
I built a Lyman GPR from a kit. That was my first foray into building.
The truth is that a person with little or no skill could ruin a Lyman GPR kit as easy as they could ruin a Chambers kit. And regarding Lyman, one GPR kit might have a different set of problems to deal with than another.
I know a guy who has IMHO ruined two TVM kits but he is as proud of those rifle as if they were custom guns.
I know another two guys who struggled to complete Chambers kits but they are both equally proud of their guns.
I know a fourth guy who is a genius with tools and he makes Chambers kits look like the best custom guns available. I am sure he could do the same with any other kit on the market.
Look at all the suppliers and you will see the same barrel makers names, the same lock makers names, the same trigger makers names, the same basic stock patterns and wood grade selections. Some of these guys probably sell parts to one another.
Find the combination that you really like and buy it from the supplier who meets your needs.
PS Check out Brad Ehmig (Sp?) of Cabin Creek Muzzleloaders while you are looking. Small selection but very good stuff at the going rate.
Salt
Post by: flintlock62 on December 28, 2009, 07:32:45 AM
For those of us who do not have a complete machine/work shop, TOTW offers gunsmithing services. Another service they offer is excellent customer support.
Post by: shademtman on December 28, 2009, 11:02:45 AM
thanks
Post by: shademtman on December 28, 2009, 11:28:14 AM
Post by: Gambia on December 28, 2009, 12:00:18 PM
Post by: Gordon H.Kemp on December 28, 2009, 12:06:39 PM
Whats the situation with the parts/kits from TOW????
Post by: tg on December 28, 2009, 12:24:08 PM
Post by: IronDawg on December 28, 2009, 03:37:13 PM
I'm a carpenter by trade and have built several several bows and a few centerfires as well. But do not have much experience at all in muzzleloader kits I have a lyman I put together from a kit (the only one I've put together from a kit). There's a certain bit of tinkering you can do with it but not much.
Mind you it is one extremely fine shooting rifle and veeery accurate. But there's not much doctoring you can do with it. most of the woods hogged off where needs to be and finish scraping is about all thats left.
You can add patina, mess with some metal finishes and maybe do a small scribe or relief here or there on the stock, but in all honesty if you were just wanting a no frills rifle?? someone of your skill set and hand knowledge could literally put the gun together on a saturday, seal the wood, and shoot it on a sunday.
I guess what I'm saying is you can do a bit of doctoring and fancying. but ya aint got much room for it because, like the traditions kits, the gun is so close to being finished.
You'll find yourself scratching your head thining, "What can I do to set this plains rifle apart from other lymans??"
From reading your posts, It sounds like you're more or less ready to tackle something like a sitting fox or TVM kit.
Post by: shademtman on December 28, 2009, 05:30:19 PM
Post by: flintlock62 on December 28, 2009, 05:48:18 PM
That's why I personnaly recomend TOTW. They use top quality parts in their kits. Right now, there is a problem with Green Mountain barrel availability. Green Mountan is in the middle of a big gov't contract. No problem though, just substitute a Colerain barrel instead. I like their round bottom rifling anyway. Balls seat easier, and cleaning is quicker, and their darned accurate to boot.
Post by: flintlock62 on December 28, 2009, 06:04:56 PM
Post by: Old Salt on December 29, 2009, 12:27:47 PM
Quote from: "flintlock62"
I forgot to mention Tip Curtis. He lives down the road just a piece from me. He has a nice shop of which I'm envious!
:) :toast
Shademtman,
I think you got your monies worth on this thread.
Are you closer to making a decision? Have you picked a style say Southern Mt, Early Lancaster? What about caliber or barrel length? Do you want the best wood available? Does brass hardware appeal to you more than iron? How close will you stick to a particular school of rifle building or will you allow some variation?
Judging from your account of experience I image you to be quite capable of completing the majority of options available to you.
When you narrow down your choices one or two dealers will most likely stand out as being able to meet your needs.
It's been a pleasure,
Salt
Post by: shademtman on December 30, 2009, 07:45:38 AM
Post by: AxelP on December 30, 2009, 08:35:37 AM
With a lower drop, any kind of shooting in a prone position is not good... even aiming high in the trees is a bit of a challenge with a gun that sports a lot of drop. Dont get me wrong, I love my lehigh, but it was simply not designed for that kind of hold. Its fine for offhand, and on a knee, sitting with cross sticks, whatever, but the extreme angles are a no go.
Hope this helps
Post by: flintlock62 on December 30, 2009, 08:59:35 AM
The purpose of the big drop on the Bedford is that one holds his head straight up instead of bending the head down to see the sights.
You can find books on the Bedford County rifle. One is called "The Makers of Bedford County Rifles", The author I do not remember, but there are some mighty fine examples. I chose the William Defibaugh school for my rifle.
As far as shooting squirrels, I find that it works perfectly when aiming high up on a tree limb. The big stock drop on the Bedford allows me to set my sights much quicker.
Post by: Capt. Jas. on December 30, 2009, 10:32:06 AM
1. Drop at the nose of comb (most important)
2. drop at heel
These two measurements create a third measurement that is taken at the drop at face or cheek (where the cheekbone rests on the comb)
If you are hovering over the comb to see the sights without your cheekbone resting on the comb or are having to scrunch down hard on the comb to get the sights to line up, the gun does not fit.
Some "schools" of architecture really don't fit anyone, they just adjust to the gun in all sorts of contortions. This is much easier to do with the aiming of a rifle as opposed to a shotgun but a rifle can and should also fit.
Having the head more erect can be a nice feature but just by adding drop at heel without paying more attention to the drop at comb nose will create a monster.
All stock measurements are taken and based on a pre-chosen length of pull. LOP is the least important measurement as long as comfortable but all other more critical measurements are based on it.
You can take any gun you have that feels good in the LOP and take the measurements from that . You can build up the comb if needed with
moleskin, cardboard, electrical tape, etc. til it fits.
Something like Jim Chambers' early Lancaster pattern is usually a conservative set of dimensions of fitting a large group of people.(I am not one of them. I would need to add 1/4" at the nose of comb)
Trigger Pull: 13 3/4" to 14"
Drop At Heel: 2 3/4"
Butt Width: 2 1/16"
Drop At Comb: 1 1/2"
Butt Height: 5"
Cast Off: 1/4"
Cheers
James
Post by: shademtman on December 31, 2009, 01:22:35 PM
Post by: Capt. Jas. on December 31, 2009, 01:52:25 PM
Most all the population can be fit using a LOP between 12.5 to 15.5 inches (3" variation) and building off of those.
I am sure you already know this with your stock building experience but as far as drop at heel from 2 3/4 to the extreme...
the more the heel and nose differ , the greater the incline angle, the greater the felt recoil.
Modern monte carlo rifle stocks for scopes and trap gun stocks drop the heel to allow an upright shooting style and raise the comb to fit the cheek but eliminate the drastic angle by stepping the stock or using mechanical devices.
Post by: shademtman on January 01, 2010, 06:51:04 AM
Post by: Captchee on January 01, 2010, 08:57:01 AM
My 12 gage SXS kick just as had as any smokless 12 gage SXS .
But the recoil is a push not a back ,up and over like smokless .
This is why even with a heavy load , you can just rst the forearm in you have like a recoilless .
No need to choke it .
The other thing with steep drops is that the recoil has to travel down the wrist at a more steep angle so not only do you feel more , but you also place the wrist area under a higher load . Thus making it even more important that the grain of the wood , flow properly through that area
Post by: Old Salt on January 02, 2010, 12:03:45 PM
Quote from: "shademtman"
i think i'll probably go with the 42" barrel....i do like the lancaster style rifles....although i am somewhat partial to the iron hardware look....i think most lancaster style rifles featured somewhat elaborate patchboxes...didn't they?...also the lancaster has a straighter stock (less drop)
Shademtman,
It's entirely possible that I am mistaken but I think the early Lancaster would have been more common with a wooden patch box while the late Lancaster would have been more common with a brass patch box.
I think you are right that the lines on Lancaster rifles are straight meaning the lower butt and upper butt lines are straight. And if you follow those lines to an intersection they will converge near the tang. I'm not sure if drop is part of that.
Other styles of rifle will show a distinct curve along the lower butt line, or sometimes curved upper and lower lines.
I'm hoping somebody with a clearer understanding will add a comment or two if I'm mistaken.
Salt
Post by: tg on January 02, 2010, 07:32:18 PM
That is how the one I did was layed out, the cheek piece was also defined by the lines of the radius that was centered at the rear lock bolt if I recall, but that is the general idea, a wide single piece brass box would also be Ok for an Early Lancaster, one needs to define what is "early" on the particular build for lock choice and wrist width/height features and buttstock width/ straightness many use the Siler which most would say puts it 1770 at the earliest, like most early guns there is not much to go by but generalities common to early guns if meant to be pre 1770. Many consider anything pre 1780 as early some go with pre Rev War as the cutoff so to speak. I do not think there is a hard fast "rule" here.
Post by: Old Salt on January 03, 2010, 02:32:59 PM
Thanks for clarifying the layout. l see now the lines do converge on the rear lock bolt.
Shademtman,
Choosing an early Lancaster allows you to choose between many suppliers. I'll throw Wayne Dunlap of Dunlaps Woodcrafts into the mix with one of his Isaac Haines component sets.
Salt
Post by: shademtman on January 03, 2010, 08:07:32 PM
Post by: Captchee on January 03, 2010, 08:44:38 PM
Dic on pecatoncia river lists a price without a stock . reson for this is that you can chose the grade of stock which can be anywhere between 50.00 and 200.00
Post by: jtwodogs on January 04, 2010, 09:25:01 AM
The reason I am posting here is that some time ago, I was reading about a guy who offered (For people that wanted to learn}, a week at a place I believe it was in Virginia a place "Stone" something I believe it was a civil war battlefield. Anywho there was a flat rate price that paid for your room and board for a week and it also paid for a chambers kit, and the class on how to build the kit, pretty long days, but at the end of the week you had a pretty much finished rifle. If anyone is familiar with this please put that info out there, because if it is still available I myself am thinking about doing it sometime. I think the price was very reasonable, at the time I was reading about it I remember thinking that at that price it would have been nice just to have the class but you also got the rifle.
Thanks
Post by: nessy357 on January 04, 2010, 10:38:06 AM
Cheers Bob.
Post by: Old Salt on January 04, 2010, 11:56:31 AM
Quote from: "shademtman"
well have finally decided on the early lancaster....wooden patch box....best prices seem to be....pectonica river...459.25 ...or Jedediah starr trading company....neither of which, i have ever dealt with, so could use some opinions.
Judging by the photos on the web sites they look like the same parts set.
I'd be tempted to ask the Jebediah Star sales rep where they get thier kits from.
Salt
Post by: shademtman on January 04, 2010, 12:07:52 PM
Post by: Robert D Smith on January 08, 2010, 01:23:57 AM
I put together a TVM Early Virginia rifle some years ago and gained enormous respect for gunmakers. What looks like it would be so simple just isn't. Slow, careful and thoughtful work is very important because a mistake can be very difficult to fix.
Post by: Captchee on January 08, 2010, 07:53:33 AM
Quote from: "shademtman"
could be they get from the same place???...dunno....but i think jedediah starr is actually about 10.00$ cheaper.
It would not surprise me if jedediah starr got their items from Pecatonica River .
Dick makes his stocks and sells them to many places .
In fact many years back ,that’s how I found Pecatonica river . At that time they had no real catalog .
Just a couple lock choices , some hardware and such . Mostly just stocks .
I had just completed an early English fowler with a stock from ToW . It was supposed to be a 3P stock and cost 250.00 . Well it wasn’t 3 P and on top of that it was soft .
So When a friend ask me to build him an economical rifle , I again looked around at the pre-carve market . I found an old add for Pecatonica river in an old muzzleloader mag and thought I would take a look and see if they were still around .
In the first hour long conversation with Dick, he informed me that they make their own stocks as well as provide a full line of blanks.. As such they have stocks which can have different anomalies in them . IE feather cracks in the butt , worm holes , mineral stains and such .
The feeling he gave me over the phone was that he wasn’t just a parts retailer and knew what he was doing . So after thinking on it about a week or so , I called back and ordered a pre-carve . Not just any pre-carve eather . I specifically ask for one with issues .
Basically I wanted to see what he considered issues and the quality of his grading .
When I called I didn’t get Dick as he was out of town . The fella I talked to said they had a pre-carve Lancaster stock . Inlet for a 15/16 barrel . As well as the RR channel was drilled .
That it had mineral stains and a couple small Knots about the size of a pencil lead . These were located in the butt. It also had mineral streaking in the but and forearm. The stock was of medium harness and of 2P maple . Price was 65.00
So I bought it . Days later I got to thinking that I may have just chucked 65.00+shipping right out the door .
But when the stock showed up . All concerns were tossed .
The stock was so much better then the stock on the early English fowler that I had gotten from TOW . To say I was floored was an understatement.
By tracks standards she would have been easily a 4P figure and it was much harder wood . The mineral stains were also nothing more then what was on the 250.00 stock from Tow .
Since that time , I have NEVER bought a stock from ToW . If im working on a pre-carve . Pecatonica is where I go . The only acceptation is jim chambers .
Both places will give you what you ask for . Both grade on the heavy side . IE more figure then what they state . If you ask specifically for a heavy dense piece of wood , then that’s what you get .
IMO the only way one would ever find better is to build from a blank .
Post by: Kermit on January 08, 2010, 11:21:32 AM
Keep it coming!
Post by: nessy357 on January 08, 2010, 11:32:15 AM
PECATONICA RIVER LONG RIFLE GUARANTEE
Our intent is to produce a product better than you expected. Our standards are high. We try to provide wood which has been graded fairly and free of chips, cracks, knots, checks, rot or weak spots. We do not consider a slight mineral stain a defect, as most are completely unnoticeable on the finished gun.
We try to use good judgement in the customers' favor in selecting their stock. We guarantee your satisfaction. If you are in any way not satisfied, simply notify us at once, within 10 days, for shipping instructions for replacement or full refund. Guarantee is void if stock has been carved or inlet in any other way than it was received and may not be returned. Also, we have no control over hidden defects.
We are proud of having very few returns or adjustments since we usually provide more than we promise. We enjoy an excellent reputation and we intend to keep it!
The stock I ordered was better than expected, however, when they sent the wrong trigger guard and buttplate, they were painfully slow in exchanging them (6 weeks ) this was after having to wait 3 months for the kit.
IF I was to order another I would go with Sitting Fox,IMO he has the best value for your dollar.
Cheers Bob.
Post by: Old Salt on January 08, 2010, 12:36:21 PM
Even though the first time builder will still be required to do some final fitting they will be mostly assured that all the parts are located in the correct location. That might save a guy from making a mistake in the location of lock bolts, tang bolt, side plate or trigger gaurd.
I know a person could still make a mistake with those tasks. But with a significant part of the layout being complete there are fewer chances to slip up.
That's not to say a supplier might make an occasional mistake in the layout or that an experienced builder might have thier own preferences.
With regards to Pecatonica I recently ordered a replacement butt stock for a Remington # 4 boy's rifle. The order process was simple and the part arrived within three weeks.
Salt
Post by: Captchee on January 08, 2010, 08:18:51 PM
Quote
The stock I ordered was better than expected, however, when they sent the wrong trigger guard and buttplate, they were painfully slow in exchanging them (6 weeks ) this was after having to wait 3 months for the kit.
IF I was to order another I would go with Sitting Fox,IMO he has the best value for your dollar.
Cheers Bob.
really , never had that exsperiance with pecatoncia . you didnt happen to hit a time fraim where they were gon to say friendship ?
as to sitting fox ?
well i hate to tell you this but i been waiting on a stock and barrel since 15 november . was suposed to be her 2nd week of december .
was told when i called , that it would be out the next week . that been 3 weeks ago now and still no word
Post by: nessy357 on January 08, 2010, 10:19:29 PM
Candyman just bought 3 kits from Sitting Fox with no problems.
There's pros and cons to either of them.
Cheers Bob.
Post by: Indiana on January 09, 2010, 12:00:46 AM
Post by: Buffler Razz on January 09, 2010, 06:41:21 AM
The Chambers kit was everything I was told by friends who have much more experience that I. While it was slightly more $ than a kit I saw from TOW, the wood was certainly a cut above. Jim and Barbie were great to deal with and very helpful, BOTH before and after the purchase. As has been stated here, much of the work was already done for me. I had to do final inletting and fitting along with some shaping of the stock.
My Sitting Fox is a fowler. Ray was great to deal with, very open and honest all along the way. I decided on a piece of cherry for the stock and as with Chambers, in my opinion the wood was better than described. He did falter a bit on promised delivery by a few weeks. I also noticed that the stock came from Jack Garner at Jack's Stock Shop (also Tennessee Valley Manufacturing)
There is a lot more work to be done on this one and I knew that going in. The barrel and ramrod channel came done and the stock is rough shaped, thats it thats all. I'm not complainin, it is what I wanted. Someday I hope to start with a blank of wood and I'm hoping this progression gets me there with the least heartburn along the way.
My only advice, since I am a true Babe In the Woods, is to ask questions. Lots of them so you understand what you are getting and the seller understands what you are looking for.
Finally, thanks all , especially you Cap, for your advice, input and opinions. I've enjoyed reading thru this one.
Razz
Post by: SimonG on January 09, 2010, 11:03:13 AM
Chambers; http://www.flintlocks.com/ (http://www.flintlocks.com/)
TVM ;http://www.avsia.com/tvm/index.html
Pecatonica; http://www.longrifles-pr.com/ (http://www.longrifles-pr.com/)
TOW; http://www.trackofthewolf.com/ (http://www.trackofthewolf.com/)
Sittingfox; http://www.sittingfoxmuzzleloaders.com/SittingFox.html (http://www.sittingfoxmuzzleloaders.com/SittingFox.html)
and then part it out yourself, like Tip Curtis, etc (boy, I wish we had contact info for Tip. LOL)
I have enjoyed this post, I never have bought a TVM or a Chambers but am looking to.
I've gone the Tip Curtis route, great guy, super guy, lots of back and forth, too much for me, " hey this is threaded wrong, this wont fit, this isn't the part I said"...it all comes out right in the end but its too much 'lets go see if this one fits' for me.
sitting fox I've dealt with, they'd have to cut their prices by half again for it to be worth it to me, price isnt everything, I ate up the savings by spending it on Tums and Rolaids.
TOW is always tops in service but I have ordered plain stocks and Extra Fancy and they were easy to mix up if you didn't label them.
The OP said back in there somewhere $750 was the ballpark amount to spend, I'd say based on the consensus spend it on a chambers or tvm and maybe wait a bit to get the best versus the quickest and cheaper.
you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear, and the other old saying you can't shine...junk, is always true.
my experience has proved those sayings are true, you can paint a Rolls Royce with a 4" brush and it still looks like a Rolls, but with a bad paint job.
A Yugo painted by an artist is still a Yugo, with a paint job that makes people say "what a waste of a paint job!".
Post by: Captchee on January 09, 2010, 12:33:37 PM
i think most certainly you cant make a silk purse from a sows ear . But you sure can make a dam nice sows ear purse . In fact , nice enough that someone wanting a silk purse would look twice at the sows ear . Lol .
Through the years I have done a number of sitting fox projects for folks .
Myself , I have never been complete happy with the quality . Though I must say also , that I have never been completely un happy .
The one im waiting on that I mentioned above im not totally miffed at , just yet . Even though its just the stock and barrel
A couple gave me fits ,and sleepless nights ,of that there is no doubt ..
But honestly as Nessy said : there are pro’sand cons .
Its that way no mater where you go . Its simply the nature of the beast when ever your working with something , someone else has started . It something that must be dealt with whenever you cant aford or know how to do it yourself .
IMO best bang for the buck , comes down to the Buck and knowledge added to what a person is looking for .
For some the knowledge is the issue .
If I had only 750 to spend and wanted a VERY high end piece . I guarantee you I could build a rifle for less then that . But I would have hours upon hours into it . So whats my labor worth ?
I can take a cheep CVA bobcat and for 350.00 turn it into something that will stand right next to semi customs as well as customs . Past being told what it was , No one would know .
Will they ever be anything but a CVA . No . I know that as does the customer .
Quality is , what quality is . There simply is no way around it .
One way or another we pay for that quality . Be it in our labor or in the materials we chose to use .
Thus sometimes , the best bang for the buck may not be any of the places we spoke about here .
Its basically just as you say Simon .
Lets mix this up alittle bit .
Lets say a person with 0 knowledge of these rifles , wood working , metal finishing .
Basicly know knowledge at all ..
Now lets say they want ??? OHHHHh ??? A NW trade gun , but only has 750 to spend .
There are any number of places that can provide the parts in any number of degrees of quality ..
But lets say we have a standard .
Davis lock , simple trigger , plain walnut stock, shaped and inlet , barrel by Colerain or Green mountain
Rest of the hardware is simple and cheep ..
Parts alone your into it maybe 500-550 .
That person dives in. they are all smiles because they saved 200 bucks .
Lets say the only spend 40 hours working on it . What they just did was eat up that 200.00 very quickly . the result is they have something that while being worth something to them , frankly isn’t worth more then the sum of the parts .
But for another 50 bucks " around 800" they could have had all that work done for them so as that all that was left was the finishing of the stock .
OR for another 150 had the trade gun completely finished by someone with knowledge . Thus the piece is worth more then the sum of the parts .
So in the above case , would not the best bang for the buck be any of what we have spoken about ? . I would think so if we looked at this as a pure monetary question.
IMO there can never be a price placed on knowledge . One can only get a return from knowledge .
So lets look at the above person again .
Same scenario. But this time the person is willing to opt for gaining knowledge . Time is not a factor because the knowledge learned offsets that .
The person spends 100 of the saved 200 on books that will teach him how to do the job correctly . isn’t afraid to ask questions .
Slowly takes his time . Buys a blank over a pre-carve . No more tools are needed because he will need the very same tools needed for the pre-carve .
Now he may still end up with something not worth more then the sum of the parts .
BUT he has learned and thus at the same time as gaining the pride of doing it himself . He has also gained a greater knowledge and thus a greater return on his investment .
So maybe we are looking at this from the wrong angle here .
There are simply many , many different places to get parts from . Most all sell the same parts from the same makers .
When I last talked with Ray Franks , he told me he was now using davis locks not the cheeper imports , his barrels unless special ordered were from GM .
So whats left ?
The Stocks .
Basicly in so many words level of correctness for the chosen product . Quality and level of inletting , if chosen . Not a whole lot more .
that’s the kicker here and IMO is the only thing that really differs between all the suppliers that have been sugested
Post by: makin meat on February 05, 2010, 07:44:00 PM