Post by: graybeard on August 12, 2010, 10:41:57 PM
Post by: pathfinder on August 13, 2010, 10:04:36 AM
Post by: MikeC on August 13, 2010, 10:45:32 AM
Post by: Gordon H.Kemp on August 13, 2010, 10:46:08 AM
Post by: Riley/MN on August 13, 2010, 12:00:58 PM
Post by: Gordon H.Kemp on August 13, 2010, 12:32:11 PM
Post by: Sir Michael on August 13, 2010, 02:42:15 PM
The pan and frizzen face should be cleaned with cleaned with acetone prior to loading each time.
After loading to prime the pan must be filled full with ffffg black powder which must then be tapped though the touch hole before again filling the pan 1/2 full with ffffg black powder.
Which begs the question why if it is designed to use synthetic powder because real black powder is unobtainable does it require real black powder to fire? Which leads to the question if you can get ffffg black powder to prime it why not just use fffg black powder for the main charge?
I suppose the makers of all that synthetic powder need to find some way to use it.
Post by: Gordon H.Kemp on August 13, 2010, 03:22:21 PM
Post by: Sir Michael on August 13, 2010, 06:55:24 PM
I tend to agree with him.
As for Traditions, they may be thinking that this will solve the problem of getting black powder but, it really doesn't help at all. You still have to have a can of ffffg to prime with and if you can't get fffg what makes them think you can get ffffg.
Post by: Gordon H.Kemp on August 13, 2010, 08:33:57 PM
Then there is the rest of us!! :USA
I don't jnow what the answer is , but I do know that if We , the hard core freedom fighters don't find a way to dig in and defeat the antis we are about to lose ALL our personal rights > :x
Post by: Kermit on August 13, 2010, 09:05:15 PM
Truth: I really don't know what the appeal of the pseudomuzzleloaders is. Really, I don't. There must be a market, suitably identified by "market research," but what is it?
We need to be sure to work our butts off to see that this junk can't be used in "special" seasons. Then the market just dies. Doesn't it? Tell me it does!
I don't think it's "antis" who drive this. It's GUN OWNERS who are buying this stuff.
Post by: Gordon H.Kemp on August 13, 2010, 10:46:19 PM
An example of this type of marketing was just practiced on us a short time ago , with the lead ban in Calif. The trick is to convince a member of , in this instance the gum owner s group , and have the tale cartried to the various sites and boards of the muzzleloading community by a member . The rest is history . Remember the gossip game where several kids lined up and the first kid read to the next kid a message that was written on rhe paper , the last kid would stand in front of the rest and give his or her version of what waS ON THE NOTE.
NEEDLESS TO SAY SELDOM WAS IT CLOSE TO THE ORIGINAL MESSAGE !!! Think about this when someone brings a message to the board' We as gun owners need to ACT not REACT . We the gun owners need to take back as much control as poassible .
The younger folks need to carry the ball . Most of the Old Farts like myself will be going to the big rondy in the sky soon and unless the younger crowd picks up the ball, it won't be long before theres no air in it . :USA
Post by: Uncle Russ on August 14, 2010, 12:57:12 PM
One would think that somewhere along the line someone would have challenged many of these statements under the "Truth in Advertising Act".
Surely "Traditional" users are not the only ones to see that something is bad wrong with all these claims by the manufacturers.
Something many of us have considered and discussed for years...Is it possible that the "Traditional users" of BP represent such a small percentage of total users, that our denial to their claims falls on deaf ears?
Is there, collectively, not enough of us to even matter in the overall scheme of things?
This past Wed. night I gave a pound of Goex FFg to a fellow member of the local Walleye Club.
After a short discussion on Muzzleloaders he informed me that since he started using muzzleloaders, about twenty years ago, he has always been told that real Black Powder is no longer available since it is unstable and dealers can no longer store it for sale....and this man is my age!
How many other untruths are being spread by the clown behind the counter?
The nonsense passed on by the manufactures and distributors of the faux powder is designed to do only thing and that is to sell their product....and that appears to be "The American Way".
I discussed this once with a friend of the family that is an attorney, and a traditional muzzleloader.
His response to my question on why isn't someone suing the living hell out of these folks for all their lies was...where is the liability? where is the safety issues? and where has damage been done?
He also spoke of other "legal" things a law suit must contain before being heard, but this is what I remember most.
According to him, the only law-suit of this nature, that he could recall, and one that had made the journals, had something to do with national advertising on TV about a particular brand-name shaving cream, and the plaintiff lost although the wording within the advertising itself proved to be untruthful and deceiving... one would think that anything proved to be "untruthful and deceiving" would be against the law, and would be the sole reason behind the Truth in Advertising Act....
However, the SCOTUS apparently has modified the Truth in Advertising Act so many times, in order to protect the 1st Amendment, that it takes more than just plain dishonesty to put a stop to something like this.
Just my thoughts.
Uncle Russ...
Post by: Sir Michael on August 14, 2010, 04:42:30 PM
How many prospective muzzleloaders get on the WEB and visit us and other places like us where they are told over and over again that factory guns are worthless because they are are not exact replicas of guns that have survived the sands of time and that they are wasting they time and money getting one and that what they really should get is an umpteen thousand dollar gun from someone's favorite gun maker or that they really should get a kit and build their own. When all they wanted to know was if one gun was better than another.
If we really want to do something about the types of guns manufacturers build and sell, lets start promoting wooden stocked cap and flint lock guns made by the few remaining manufacturers and stop dissuading prospective new muzzleloaders from even getting involved and driving them to the plastic junk on the market.
If we did this maybe just maybe we could build a market for wooden stocked cap and flintlock muzzleloaders and then maybe start a push for more historically accurate guns.
Post by: Gordon H.Kemp on August 14, 2010, 05:11:53 PM
The reporter wrote that there was to be no more tolewrence of these type of jokes . he then proceedesd to list several examples of the banned jokes . many that I'd never heard . The one that has always tickled me most was " WHAT IS 50 LAWYERS AT THE BOTTOM of THE ATLANTIC"????_)________ A GOOD START!!!!!! Becaause of the manner in wich the reporter presented these jokes there was nothing the AG could do about them !
If you are watchfull ? you can see the inroads the ANTIs are maaking into ORGanzations that were , if not , actively promoting private gun ownership , at least remaining neutral .
I think its time that all of us gun-pro people relized we had best not put off getting on the wagon to support our rights if nothing more than a letter to our HO-HO local Representive . :th up
Post by: Gordon H.Kemp on August 14, 2010, 05:29:38 PM
Looks to me you've hit the nail on the head !
Lets all try to think of LITTLE items that can be put into practice , simple but effective . :toast :USA
Post by: graybeard on August 14, 2010, 05:56:16 PM
Post by: Gordon H.Kemp on August 14, 2010, 06:08:25 PM
Post by: greyhunter on August 14, 2010, 06:14:01 PM
Post by: Gordon H.Kemp on August 14, 2010, 11:13:21 PM
My "beef" is with the Mfgs and dealers that are , by their desire for profit , helping the anti gun anti hunting groups nibble away at our freedoms .
Once again please accept my regrets for any misunderstandings .
and also my apoligy fo taking this thread away from the original post . :USA
Post by: Captchee on August 15, 2010, 10:56:50 AM
Cants say I have tried that traditions gun .
Now that being said . Some years back ??? I think it was 1998 ???/ some where there about .
I got to handle a prototype conversion .” I wont mention the company for legal reasons “
I wasn’t told what the make up of the material was or what the flash powder was
But my opinion is that it it was based on the same principle as a magnesium fire starter .
I was told that the frizzen was good for around 1000 falls and then needed to be replace .
The steal “which replaced the flint” was basically a one time deal .
I can tell you that it threw a shower of sparks like nothing I had ever seem before .
And yes that includes the so called nuclear frizzen of the late 1970’s
Now here is the kicker . If you used their priming powder it would ignite synthetic powder
And “cough , cough “ smokeless powder .
Now I don’t know for sure but their pan powder look very much like powdered magnesium to me ?????
But again I don’t know for sure .
Again this was a prototype .
Now past all that . I want to mention a few things on the other subjects brought up here
1) the lead banns are real . don’t for one second doubt that .. When projectile companies don’t have an issue with these bans . The shooting communities had better stand shoulder to should and fix bayonets
2) concerning production guns . The TMA has never had an issue with traditional production guns .
Be that Pedersoli , traditions , CVA , TC or any of the old long gone companies like Jukar , Ultra high , mark well, browning , Remington ……..
Nor can I recall anyone ever stating you had to have a custom or simi custom when it came to shooting .
Now re -enacting . that’s another story . But even then it would depend on the level of the re-enacting one whishes to do. Because frankly even a simi custom or full custom may not fit the bill .
3) powder
There are so many myths out there concerning BP .
It’s illegal . Its un safe , laws have been passed making it hard to get ………. The list goes on and on .
Most have no base or are completely un true .
Sadly though when we point fingers . Some of those fingers are pointed right at many of us .
let me say , I have no issue with a retailer making a profit . However I have a very big problem when retailers use Myth as a base for justifying that profit .
Case in point . Why is it that I can by True BP here. Clear across the country from the plant , for 9-10 a lb
When those of you back east , from what I read . Are paying 21 -27 a lb ? .
Should we not be paying more ?
Top that off by the fact that the person selling at that price is still making 2-3.00 a lb over his cost
So think on that . Who is causing folks to pay this completely out of hand price ?
Is it the synthetic powder manufactures . the government . Maybe the modern muzzle loading industry ?
Nope . Its people who can see they can make a whole lot of profit base on nothing but the fact that to many of their customers believe the myths.
I have ran into this very thing here at some Vooo’s .
don’t be afraid to simply say ; im not paying that . Im not buying anything from you and im going to tell everyone I know what your doing .
Post by: Sir Michael on August 15, 2010, 09:19:59 PM
Good post Capt.
The gun in question today may shoot plastic powder but to set it off requires two pans full of ffffg Black Powder, one pushed through the touch hole into the breach and the second in the pan. From this information I would surmise that the design uses a type of Patent Breach that leaves an empty cavity behind the pellets of plastic powder so the first pan of real powder has a place to go and the second pan of powder is used to ignite the powder in the barrel which then can in the enclosed space of the breach build up enough heat to ignite the plastic powder.
Post by: Captchee on August 15, 2010, 10:32:57 PM
Post by: Sir Michael on August 16, 2010, 01:52:23 AM
Post by: Captchee on August 16, 2010, 07:55:00 AM
i think right now companies are grasping at what ever they can . even the modern muzzleloading rifle companies are in deep .
Knight has closed up . from what i have read . they had one heck of a time selling the company
Savage muzzleloading is rumored to not be doing very well either .
even TC sold out to S&W . so who knows how long they will be producing muzzleloaders .
everyone’s clamoring for any cut they can get right now . so it may be that Traditions is seeing a turn and remarketing a product . aiming for those who dont want an inline . but are still willing to mix modern with traditional
Post by: Mustang on August 16, 2010, 06:27:56 PM
Post by: Uncle Russ on August 16, 2010, 07:58:47 PM
Quote from: "Mustang"
There is a good point and I bet I am not the only one who thinks this way. As a new guy I am not going to spend $3000, $2000, $1000, maybe not even $500 for some builder’s idea of a custom gun just t see if I like flintlock shooting. I think you all should be ambassadors of the sport and not such detractors. You have to walk before you can run.
Well said, Mustang!
This Organization was not built to please only those who felt anything and everything had to be PC / HC to be acceptable, but instead, it was put together to foster the use and acceptance of traditional styled firearms throughout the sporting fraternity.
I have personally watched us slowly move toward the pre-1840 era, mostly out of respect for the members that feel everyone needs to learn to do it right....However, at the same time I have seen many beginners get turned off on the whole idea by thinking you "have to have" such and such before you're even welcome at the campfire.
This is not, and was never the intention of the founders of this organization. We are not, nor have we ever been strictly a pre-1840 outfit, and we did not model ourselves after the AMM, although it is a great organization and envied by many.
It's true that many have gone on to become "purist" in every sense of the word, but the function and mission of the TMA has never changed.
I can not speak for all organizations, but I can speak for the couple I have been a part of...none of them, and that means Zero, Zilch, Nada, and Null...none of them want to turn-off the new-comer by counting threads or condemning their equipment.
Many of the Green River Mountain Men, a very successful, well run, organization here in the Pacific Northwest, are also members of the TMA, and any of them can tell you pretty much the same thing I have just said. Historical correctness is something to be admired, not preached.
There is a time and a place for the purist. Their exactness in everything they do is to only be admired, but turning away a new person to the sport is not a part of their plan.
To the best of my knowledge, our mission here at the TMA has remained unchanged....get the new comer involved and let him decide just how far he wants to go.
Uncle Russ...
Post by: sse on August 16, 2010, 08:53:28 PM
From there one can build on the participation in history by making or acquiring accoutrements to go along with a traditional firearm, and enjoy the recreation along with others. This really is a marvelous past-time, which the TMA was created to celebrate and enhance wherever possible.
Post by: Gordon H.Kemp on August 16, 2010, 09:15:17 PM
Post by: Captchee on August 16, 2010, 09:33:05 PM
some of the first posted and tutorials i ever put on this forum , was on how to fix up ones old CVA rifles .
how to restock them . how to convert them . all for little to nothing ..
again i agree with Russ. im sorry if i may have made it sound like i didnt
Post by: Gordon H.Kemp on August 16, 2010, 09:49:48 PM
Post by: Captchee on August 16, 2010, 10:06:41 PM
Post by: Uncle Russ on August 17, 2010, 09:55:01 AM
Quote from: "Gordon H.Kemp"
Captchee , I wouldn't worry too much about Unc Russ , At his age he'll forget what was said by morning . :lol: :P
Uncle Russ...
Post by: Uncle Russ on August 19, 2010, 01:50:35 PM
However, my first post in this thread brought several PM's and emails that were not very friendly, in view of not what I said, but more what I didn't say, so I thought I better clarify a few points.
First off, I would like to say I am NOT against anyone owning and shooting an In-Line, or any other type modern Black Powder rifle. Or, using any kind of powder they feel they can safely stuff down the barrel.
I just don't think they should be collectively "lumped" together with the traditional rifles and powder.
In an effort to prevent any more hard feelings, I would like to give you an analogy of my thoughts on this.
All my life I have preferred Vanilla Ice Cream to all other flavors.
This preference of mine is by no means unique in any way, as it reflects the choice of thousands of others much like myself.
Chocolate Ice Cream is Okay, as is Strawberry, Pecan, and all the 33 flavors offered by Baskin Robins, however they are just not the same as our beloved Vanilla.
Now, fast forward 30 years and we suddenly have all kinds of Ice Cream Manufacturers, serving their own brands, in their own containers, much of it is at an affordable price, all labeled New, Improved, and much better for you than that old fashioned stuff...and many folks like this, even go for it in a big way, and tons of this Ice Cream gets sold in a relative short time .
However, those of us who always preferred Vanilla in the past, are now getting Chocolate, Strawberry and all of these other flavors in a box that is clearly marked Vanilla.
It doesn't look the same, it doesn't smell the same, and doesn't satisfy nowhere near as much as our old fashioned Vanilla did, but we are still told it's Vanilla.
Do we feel cheated somehow? Would you somehow feel cheated too?
I can't explain this any better.
Uncle Russ...
Post by: sse on August 19, 2010, 02:54:35 PM
Quote
I just don't think they should be collectively "lumped" together with the traditional rifles and powder.As you well know, Uncle Russ, this is why you and the other co-founders "co-founded" the Traditional Muzzleloading Association.
Post by: Falsemuzzle on August 21, 2010, 09:17:18 AM
I am realtively new to ML shooting/hunting. My first rifle was a Traditions 'Deerhunter' .50 percussion because I wasn't sure if I would even like frontstuffers :lol
I would also like to add that I am slowly (as budget allows) working towards a more traditional and period way of doing things. I've only purchased a few reproduction firearms which are, I guess, "baby steps" toward that goal.
I'll keep reading, and keep learning...
Post by: Mustang on October 01, 2010, 12:19:42 PM
I have an affection for the advise from the more experienced “teachers” on these forums but there is no teacher like doing. When one of these guys says, “That won’t work.” It probably won’t, so there is some latitude there.
My own experience is real black powder and Pyrodex are virtually interchangeable in my caplocks but there isn’t any sub for real black powder in my flintlocks.
Post by: Hanshi on October 03, 2010, 01:15:53 PM
Post by: Kermit on October 03, 2010, 02:06:02 PM
I'm pretty sure each one of us has let, even encouraged, the curious bystander or new club attendee to shoot their gun. I think that's a real key. We need the inline pyrodex pellet sabot shooter to come out and join us in the fun. I'm not saying they need to compete in all the same shoots all the time.
The first club I joined had separate scoring of targets based on whether it was shot with percussion of flint. It was later abandoned, and everyone competed together. Maybe it's time to go back to that sort of thing. Might get some folks to come out and shoot. Then let them see and experience all the alternatives.
I started with an interest in single shot rifles and shotguns. That came out of archery. Then single shot simply morphed into muzzleloading percussion and then to flint. Now I'm looking at percussion again--not to replace any flinter, mind you. It started with a twinkle of interest from my wife saying she hadn't shot since she did with her dad, waaaay back. Rimfire came out again, since she can no way handle any recoil at this stage of life. Now she's asking about smallbore muzzleloaders. Could go anywhere, including nowhere.
Rambling here. Guess I'd just say we might benefit by being inclusive. Not every club will. There will be groups that want to be juried and exclusive. So be it. I just think there's room for all, and we need to interbreed a bit.
Guess maybe it's time for me to get serious about picking up a used percussion rifle as a loaner. Might start a newcomer. Maybe even my wife.
Post by: Uncle Russ on October 03, 2010, 02:59:26 PM
Quote
Rambling here. Guess I'd just say we might benefit by being inclusive. Not every club will. There will be groups that want to be juried and exclusive. So be it. I just think there's room for all, and we need to interbreed a bit.
Tremendous amount of wisdom in that little bit of 'Ramblin'.
Uncle Russ...
Post by: Mustang on November 12, 2010, 01:11:26 PM