Traditional Muzzleloading Association
Traditional Firearms => Caplock Long Guns => Topic started by: butterchurn on October 13, 2008, 12:30:21 PM
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I've never owned one of these and was wondering about them. If I were to look for one, what would I look for and in what gauge? My only concern is to get enough use out of it for the expenditure. Is there a way to find good used ones for a good price?
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I just got mine a couple weeks ago at a little gun shop in town. I t is an older Pedersoli 12ga. Cost me $140. I also saw 3 Old doubles at the Log Cabin Shop on Saturday. They were pretty busy, so I didn't get a good look.$ were $99, $250 and 3 something. Not sure what to look for on an older gun, but I like my 12, Just shot a turkey last nite with it at just over 30 yards.
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Well I would recommend at lest a 20 gage .
Bores should be bright , but it cant be to deep .
most time bores can but for in the most exstream cases be freshened up .
IMO Damascus barrels are alright , just watch the pitting and if the seller will let you , ring the barrels so you know the ribs are ok.
While your doing that take a look at the breech stamping . Its not uncommon to run across SXS that are listed as 12 gage but actually be 11, 14 or 16 gage so know what the bore actually is .
If you have a choice , go for the english barrels over belgium though
Watch for cracks in the stocks , especially concerning back action locks .
Just as with any muzzleloader , check for good main springs by cocking the hammers of cocks back .
The other thing to watch is that the hammers rest solidly when at the full cock .
Its not uncommon right now to find late originals for around 150 -300 that are good and sound .
SXS up until recently have not been to collectable , but that is fast changing ..
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I've had several. Pedersoli makes a good shotgun. The best I ever had was a Beretta over and under muzzleloader. I could kick myself for selling it. It even came in a wooden case that was canvas and leather covered.
Of course smoothbore flintlocks are also shotguns.
There is a single shot "cape gun" on Gunbroker in .69 caliber (12 gauge). That would be a heck of a great shotgun. I would love to own that one but I don't really need it. You ought to take a look at it. Here's the like:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =112493736 (http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=112493736)
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Depends on what you need it for,if it is just a knock about gun then go for a cheap repro such as Pedersoli , etc .
If you are looking for something that is well built and handles well in 12,14,16 for pheasants etc then the original is the best .Smaller bores such as 20,24,28,are ideal for small winged game and once again the original is the best .As a purist that is my opinion ,here in the UK the originals out numbers the repro in the field.
Feltwad
A Flint Lock will not secure a chicken house door
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currently there are alot of late originals around . i know of an original 10 gage greener that could be had for 250 .
you just have to look around .
alor of the repos are alot highrer in cost and IMO no where near as nice .
just keep your eye out and you will find them . but be picky
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Captchee - I haven't seen any originals around here. Where did you see the Greener? Where might a fella look? What did you mean by "ring the barrels?" I'm not familiar with that phrase.
Thanks!
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WOW little question that’s asking for a LONG reply LOL
well lets start by ringing the barrel . We could go in depth as to why this happens but unless you really want to the simple explanation is this .
You take the barrels of the stock and you hang them.
Normally if im going to gun shows , farm auctions and such I take a 2 ft piece of cotton string in my pocket , and a small brass rod that’s about 4 inches long , just for this purpose ..
Any metallic rod will do really even metal. . Hang the barrels by the string and then tap them . You don’t need to hit the barrels hard , just tap them like you would fine crystal . What your checking for is that the ribs are still tight to the barrel . If they are the barrels will ring a nice sharp DINGGGGGG just like a sweet bell .
If the buzz or make a thud sound , that means the barrels have a loose spot .
Meaning that the barrels need some work
The greener is a a couple towns away , Im sure the fella still has it . I was going to buy it but my wife wouldn’t let me said I has enough SXS in my collection
She just happened to walk by as I was looking it over , very poor prior planning on my part .
The barrels do need to be cleaned up as there was some pitting but not bad enough they couldn’t be freshened up . The locks were sound and crisp . No cracks in the stock and all the engraving was still in fair shape .
I can try and give the fella a call today if your interested .
As to where I look , well I look everywhere LOL .
As I stated before , farm auctions are a good spot and you often get the best prices .
SXS haven’t been to collectable and the prices are still relatively low .
I also look at gun shows but the prices at those are usually on the higher side or way out of reason .
Pawn shops are another good place to keep your eye out in . most times you will find them hanging up on a wall , you have to ask . a lot of time they will say they aren’t for sale . But other times they are and are up there because they couldn’t sell them .
I also have bought Many Originals . LMAO way to many according to my wife up at the Monroe WA gun show .
3 years ago I came home with 7 , all but 1 in shoot able condition and I didn’t pay over 200 for any of them . In fact the one that wasn’t shoot able was easily reparable and I paid 125 bucks for.
LMAO I bought every SXS that was for sail at the show that year LMAO . My wife was not a happy camper .
The next year , word got out and the prices went up 100%, I didn’t come home with any .
But last year a local club member wanted a SXS and gave me 300 if I ran across a good one .
I was one of the first 25 in the door and . Right inside the door was an original Williams, in reasonable shape for 225.
I snagged it figuring if I came across something nicer ok , if not , it was a steal .
All I saw through the rest of the show were a couple originals in the 350-600 range .
A couple CVA’s in the 300 range and 1 Investment Arms for 450 .
As it turned out , the Williams was a great buy . Stock had a crack in the wrist , nothing that couldn’t be fixed and the barrel and locks were clean and sound .
I also watch while im working and talk to folks in conversation . You would be surprised what folks bring out . I once had a fella tell me that he new a man that had a couple old SXS that I thought he would sell for cheep .. The guy was up there in age , lived out on an old ranch .So I ask if he would call the person and see .
He said im sure they are , I heard he was having some money problems and such , but ill call
Sure enough , yep they were for sale . So we took a trip over to the guys farm to take a look .
Now I want to say something here . When you go into peoples homes , be honest with them . I would say 99% of the time they have no idea what they have . The guns I find for the most part are very Old and handed down through the family . Sadly many art in very good shape and havent seen the light of day for many years . But still be honest if the guy offers to sell you something for 50 bucks and you know its worth 10’s of thousands , tell them . The kindness will come back to you 10 fold .
don’t rush in , sit down , chat with the person , have coffee . Let the subject of why you are there come naturally
With this particular case , after a walk out to look at a new Bull the guy had just bought , a couple pots of Coffee , he brings out this 10 gage Remington , rabbit eared SXS . At one time it had been a grade A SXS , fully engraved with a high end Bernard ” off on spelling sorry “ pattern. But the stock had once been broke and the fella said his dad had carved a new one from a piece of Oak they had .
I told him I might be interested but that it was missing a lot of parts. . He understood about the Remington but ask if I would give him 25 bucks for it . I looked it over and figured with some work I could repair it or at the very least use a lot of the parts that were left . So I said , How about I give you 50 . The old guy smiled and said sold .
He then brings out another old Belgium gun , also a breechloader but a very early one .
He said , you know , I don’t know about this 16 gage but its been in the family for a while . My dda gave it to me when I was a boy . He started into this long story , much longer then this one im writing now lol . I sat there an listened for about another hour about duck hunts with his father and such .
You could see in his eyes that there were a lot of memories in that old SXS . Finally I said sir , you need to keep this gun .
IMO you write all this down . Put it in an envelope and , roll it up and slip it into one to the barrels . He slowly got up and put it away .
Comes back out and says well son , that’s all I have I guess , that’s worth anything .
I said well sir I think you for a fine day , if you know of anyone that has any old muzzleloaders , that what im really looking for .
He say you mean those old front stuffers ? Ya I said that’s what really hold a place for me ..
Then he says . I have one but its not much good . Its been in the family for who knows how long . My grandfather said it was his grandfathers and they brought it with them when they homesteaded this ranch back in 68 .
So you know what he meant by 68 , that 1868. Heck if its any good , id just give it to ya .
It should be out in the barn in and old trunk of things .
So we made another trip to the barn with full coffee cups . Listening to him tell me how he had meant to throw all this old stuff away but just had never found the time .
To make a very long story even longer LOL , this wasn’t just a trunk . This thing was a SEA chest about 5 ft long with big bands going around it . You could see that at one time it had been covered in leather .
I mentioned that which lead to another story about his great ,great grandfather was a Ships captain if he recalled . .
As he opened the trunk , it was filled with letters and pictures on top . He just scoped them out onto the floor . Under those were dresses and petty coats and such . I remember thinking WHOLLY SMOKES!!!!!!! And saying SIR!!!! You need to take this stuff down to the local historical society .
Which just got me a odd look .
But anyway eventually he says , ahhhhh here it is and he pulls out the dress that wrapped around this gun . He laughs and says you know I haven’t seen this since I was a boy . Cant tell you what shape its in .
He un wrapps it and drops the dress to the floor .
There in this old mans hands rested a Manton SXS flintlock in about 75% condition .
To tell you the truth I about went to the floor with that dress .
The old guy says , I know its not much , always been in this trunk , don’t really know anything about it .
Im standing there looking at the inscription with the name Joseph Manton, my mind just shifted into neutral and I remember say something like JESUS .
The locks worked flawlessly . The original RR with a wonderful hourglass shape at the tip was still in place . .
I said sir , I cant take this
The old guy started to get upset and said I told you it wasnt much .
No I said I really cant take this . And I told him about the maker , about the locks about what he had and that he really needed to get this ensured and that IMO the SXS was worth in the neighborhood of 25 thousand but I wasn’t sure .
He started to laugh said , that would be nice but I doubt its worth all that
I quickly placed a call on my cell ,to a guy I know who is a collector and we spent the next 45 minutes on the phone checking markings and numbers .
The gun now sits in his collection vault don’t know what he ended up paying for it but I here it was enough to help they old fella out immensely.
But because of that kindness , mind you , I could have taken that SXS and ran like a fox from a hen house . But because of that kindness , folks remember or have heard and they take me at my word because they know im not going to cheat them .
Sometimes I come home and there is a box of original gun parts on my porch . No name , nothing , just sitting there .
Others bring me old SXS and ask if I can fix them so they can shoot them or they here that I have some old parts and they need something . Be it a firing pin , maybe a mainspring or such for GG grandpas shotgun .
I don’t charge for those parts that get left , I just pass them on to folks here and there
So butterchurn just take your time , look around , there is a lot of them out there to be had .
In fact ill send you a PM I have something you may be interested in
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Captchee,
Thanks for the wonderful story. Your point is well said. In my other hobby (ham radio) you get unscrupulous people preying on widows all the time when their husbands die and leave her with radio equipment that she doesn't know the value of and they just come in and steal it from her. Honesty is always the mark of good character and true civilized people.
I am very interested in the receiving a PM from you. looking forward to it.
Ron
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should be in your in box now
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Cap, that is one of the greatest stories I have ever read.
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Cap' great story and sage advise to boot !
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OHHHh you would be surprised what is still out there in folks closets .
in fact , the falla i mentioned above that is a collector , i met at a farm auction .well actually it was an estate sale but
he Bit me hard that day LOL
im standing there looking at this old half stock rifle .
was kinda rusty and such . but the stock was clean enough you could see that it was at one time very high grade .
normally i dont take much money to these things . if i do i get carried away and spend it so i let the wife give me my allowance LOL
but anyway , im looking at this rifle and this guy is standing next to me . we get to chatting about guns .
Im a nice enough guy and when the fella ask what it I thought it was worth , i said , i dont know maybe 100 ??? was a nice rifle at one time .
he just smiles at me .
the auctioneer started the bidding at 50 bucks , not one taker , he dropped it to 25 and I bid .
Then this other fella bids as well and im thinking ok this guy is a auction scammer that’s bidding me up . So I let the bid go , going once .going twice . Just to let the fella know that I wasn’t going to go over 150 for that rifle . See momma had only given me 175 to spend .
They guy bids again and I thought YOU,!@#$ ….^&%$ and I went 175 . He bidds me up again ,
But im done , that all I had .
He then comes over to me and apologizes and says , son , that there rifle is worth a lot more then you think . Gives me his card and says call me in a couple weeks , ill have it cleaned up .
So Im miffed but I called him and went over for coffee we talk a while and we go down stairs . Low and behold the rifle was an Original Derringer LMAO and a real Butte to .
Well some times you win , sometimes you lose , you just never know .
Im strictly small time and don’t have a lot of spending money . Sometimes I win but most times I don’t LOL
but i buy the ones i like sometimes they are just junk , other times i find that i have something . but i enjoy them all
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Cap,
The richness of the stories are surpassed onlyby the goodness of your honesty. Very refreshing, it is nice to know there are still folks out there with integrity.
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What Cap said about ringing the barrels is correct but there is another fault you can pick out by the same method and that is a crack in a damascus barrel most often on the the seam which cannot be seen with the naked eye.
I have done restoration of antiques for many decades and have occasionally come across a cracked barrel .
As for antiques still out there it is surprizing what comes out of the woodwork we call them {sleepers}I have obtained many muzzle loaders like this
The best period for them was the 1950s here in the UK with a lot of rebuilding and modernization after the war a lot of these old guns came to light and where did most end up,. in the States
Feltwad
A Flint Lock will not secure a chicken house door
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yep what feltwad said , any losness to the barrles will come to light when you ring them , bad ribs , bad barrels and such .also dont forget to check them for loads , , drop the RR down the bore ..
not alot of original early rifles around but there are alot of shotguns . you start looking and you will be suprised what you find
the Muzzleloader shop has some . there are always some on gun broker or auction arms as well
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Butterchurn,
You ever get down to Morristown? There's a "little gun shop" there called Ahlman's (advertises they have 5000 guns) that gets some doubles once in a while...
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Riley - Yeah, I've been there but its been a long time. I used to go down there and do cowboy action shooting. Ammo getting too expensive so I stopped.
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but i buy the ones i like sometimes they are just junk , other times i find that i have something . but i enjoy them all
That's the way to go, if you buy it because you like it you're safe, you aren't worried if folk tell you it isn't what you thought it was.
I just bought a Durs Egg percussion 13 gauge. Bill Curtis was severely raining on my parade, said it was made after Egg was dead and there isn't much Bill doesn't know about guns :rotf
The cherry on the cake came when I found the wear plates by the breeching and barrel vents were pure platinum and due to the inflated metal prices I'd actually got it for around it's scrap value so the gun has to be a bargain. Shoots good to
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shhhhhhhhhh dont sya nothing about platnum folks will be bying all the good ones up just for that and then dumping the rest of the gun