"period correct" rifle spex?

[RobD]

what constitutes the criteria for a "period correct" american built flintlock rifle that could have been crafted somewhere between (or during) the F&I wars through the end of the Rev war?  this would be in terms of overall design, caliber, barrel length and construction, lock origin, trigger(s), furniture metal type that was used and NOT used, ornamentation and engravings (if any), stock wood and spex, fit and finish of wood and metal ... and intended customer - farmer, indian, militia, long hunter, etc.  i know this is quite a lot of ground to cover, but i'm real curious to understanding the role of the rifled barrel and its use during the critical time that lead to and encompassed the american revolution.  

your thoughts and opinions, please?

[Keb]

I'm no expert but I believe a F&I era American made rifle does not exist. Rev war era rifles seem to be the earliest American made rifles mainly coming from the Moravian settlements in east PA. I'd guess most American made arms were of the smoothbore fowler style with imported barrels & locks before Rev war. Mostly cast or sheet brass fittings. Steel was hard to come by. Wood is the big 3, maple being the dominant wood followed by walnut, then cherry. Some were embellished with carving & engraving in the typical areas. Get Grinslade's book. It has a lot of pretty pictures in it and a lot of information about American arms that predate the revolution.

[RobD]

so, focusing on the F&I wars of '54-'63, what were the percentage of rifles versus smoothbores - where did said rifles come from, and what was their typical calibers and barrel lengths?

moving forward to the 70's and the rev war, where did said rifles come from, and what was their typical calibers and barrel lengths?

[BillingsDave]

so, focusing on the F&I wars of '54-'63, what were the percentage of rifles versus smoothbores - where did said rifles come from, and what was their typical calibers and barrel lengths?

moving forward to the 70's and the rev war, where did said rifles come from, and what was their typical calibers and barrel lengths?

We probably will never know how many rifles were used in the F&I war. I have read that there is not any ducumented use of rifles in that war. There are only 2 rifles in existence that might date from that time period and the jury is still out on them. I would bet that the percentage of rifles used would be about 1% or even less. Typical calibers would have been 50-60. Barrel lengths probably between 36-40 inches. They probably came from Pennsylvania.

By 1770 rifle building was still centered in Pennsylvania but had expanded to Virginia and possibly N. Carolina. But it was still very rare to find a rifle in the New England states. It comes to a surprise to many to learn that there is no documented use of rifles in the battles of Lexington and Concord. This was probably right at the end of the transition period. Butt stocks still tended to be wide, barrels shorter that what they would be in the "Golden Age", probably 38-40 inches or so, and there was still a wide use of wood patch box covers. Also, while there was some effective use of rifle companies, the Rev. War was not won by the American Longrifle. It was won by smooth bore military muskets using the accepted military tactics of the time. I would think that the percentage of rifles to smooth bores would not have been more that 10% and probably much less.

Here is a link to a good article that will answer many of your questions:
HistoricalTrekking.com :: View topic - Considering F&I War rifles

[RobD]

that's a great post/article by rich pierce, thanx for sharing billingsdave!

all of what he laid out is pretty much the way i see it with concern to rifles, and smoothbores, and both the settlement and conflict periods of the 18th century.  there *probably* just weren't that many rifles around, and super rarely for warfare.  even washington decreed his army sport no rifles, muskets only.  and for excellent reasons!  

it makes absolute sense for non-military folks to have a smoothbore as well, as it's the perfect tool for fowl or game, particularly on the coast side of the country were fowl was probably (and eventually) more plentiful than small to deer sized game, and forested areas were thick.  in the nor'east game populations were decimated as the indians used hides to acquire firearms.  i've read where the natives preferred rifled barrels for the taking of deer at longer ranges simply because deer had been way over harvested in their quest for skins.

however, reading the further into the thoughts and theories of others, whilst the coastal settlers preferred smoothbores and the natives rifles, the "frontier" (up to and past the kentucky geographic areas) longhunters preferred rifles, perhaps in more open land areas, most of which (within those settlement and conflict periods), were shorter barrelled and far more of jaeger design origins.  whereas the "american long rifle" was more of a design that grew during the rev war, and really blossomed post rev war during the "golden age" of the american long rifle.

so ... perhaps it might go like this - during the early 18th century (1725-1770) smoothbores absolutely ruled for everything and rifles didn't look much like golden age american rifles, as they were more jaeger-like.  reading further, the concept of the long barreled (42"+) could have been spurred on by native americans as they were used to the long barrels of their early "trade" muskets and fowlers, had a penchant for those barrel lengths, and both colonial and british gunsmiths accommodated that desire ... which eventually transferred over to the colonists, since numbers of them took to the indian ways, and therefore the long rifles.

[Uncle Russ]

Very interesting! Absolutely great thread!
You guys keep at it....still so much to learn, and sooo little time!


Uncle Russ...

[RobD]

it's all a theory of sorts, based on not much if any solid evidence, but i also believe that the true "american long rifle" didn't come into being until somewhere in the rev war, perhaps spurred on by the small, but significant desire/need for more accuracy at long range (sniping).

the revelation of sorts for me is all the data that points to the incredibly extensive use of smoothbores outside of the military during the settlement and F&I war (which makes perfect functional sense), and the little use of the rifle by colonials, and the larger use of rifles by native americans ... which could corroborate why mythical caricatures of that era (i.e. - 1757's hawkeye and chingachgook) are depicted as wielding long barrelled rifles as opposed to smoothies, as opposed to the longhunters and frontiersmen pushing west (kentucky) with essentially versions of jaegers and their shorter barrels.

looking at the settlement and conflict eras of roughly 1725-1785, the clear firearm of choice for the vast majority - colonists, native americans, military - was the smoothbore.  only smatterings of use for some form of rifled long gun, with short barrelled jaegers predominent, but with some longer barrelled versions in use by native americans, frontiersmen and military snipers.  with the rev war over, the requirement of the smoothbore diminishes.  with the scarcity of larger nor'east game that were plundered for skins, it would make more practical sense for the rise of the long rifle, in its new incarnation by the american gunsmiths of that time period - the american long rifle, in its golden age.

i just ordered grinslade's "Flintlock Fowlers: The First Guns Made in America" - should be interesting at the least, thanks for the head's up on that one, keb.

[Hanshi]

While I, too, can offer no proof whatsoever as to the building/prevalence of rifles from the early to mid 1700s, it makes sense (to me, ha, ha) that as the Germanic gun builders began settling on the east coast that they would continue building - perhaps along with smoothbores - rifles for hunter's needs.  I do know this early rifle seemed rather to be the jaeger which morphed into " the American" jaeger and transitional styles such as the Christian Springs.  I would bet (and probably lose) that AI demand for rifles came later and that they welcomed smoothbores initially.

*My sources for this info include, but are not limited to, tv Davey Crockett, Daniel (Fess Parker) Boone and several movies I've seen.

[mario]

I have read that there is not any ducumented use of rifles in that war.

Their use is actually quite well documented. Their appearance, however, has been lost to time.

7 Jan. 1758, ordnance stores in New York City show 190 rifled carbines available.

25 May 1758, General Stanwix to Col. Bouquet: "Mr Ourry indented for 16 rifled Barrel Fuzees as delivered to the first Battalion [Royal American Regiment]..."

Anonymous officer on the Ticonderoga expedition: "...and 10 Rifled Barrelled Guns were delivered out to each Regiment..."

12 June 1758, General Orders: "Each Regt to receive ten riffled pieces from the store, & to return the like number of firelocks for them."


April, 1756, Edward Shippen to the Gov. of PA: "The Indians make use of rifles guns for the most part..."

SC agent Daniel Pepper to Gov. Lyttelton, 30 Nov. 1756: "I think it is highly necessary to inform your Excellency that the Indians are daily getting into the Method of useing Riffle Guns instead of Traders [trade guns}..."

These and many others can be found in British Military Flintlock Rifles: 1740-1840 by DeWitt Bailey, Ph.D.


Mario

[RobD]

i've read about those written evidences of rifle use during that colonial time frame, and i do believe it all to be true.  however, in the larger scheme of things, those rifle numbers are like a bucket of water in an ocean as compared to the numbers of smoothbore musket/fowlers in use.  i'll hafta check, but i think there was/is one or two rifles that still exist and are attributed to that period.  

all a moot point - rifles were not the true military weapon, and by written evidences it appears that rifles were primarily the weapons of the native americans and frontiersmen, plus a smattering of military "snipers".

[RobD]

from peter a. alexander's "the gunsmith of grenville county", at least one remaining physical example of a conflict era rifle ...