Post by: Buster95 on January 23, 2016, 01:43:15 PM
Post by: Uncle Russ on January 23, 2016, 02:44:48 PM
THAT is one fine looking rifled musket IMHO!
And from my "Lookie Lou" I found some interesting things.
First off, that price is really very reasonable, in fact much lower than most from my reading.
And I thought I would post this for others to see;
The 1858 Enfield rifled musket was one of the most commonly used Civil War firearms, second only to the 1861 Springfield. A shortened version of the 1853 pattern Enfield, the 1858 had refinements for infantry use such as the adjustable ladder rear sight. It was one of the most accurate rifles of its day, and was highly sought out by troops on both sides. This modern reproduction features a period-correct color case hardened percussion lock, blued barrel and bands and has the correct style screws.
Specifications and Features:
.58 caliber
Muzzle loading black powder musket
33" rifled barrel
Percussion ignition
Adjustable ladder rear sight
Color case hardened lock
Brass fittings
Walnut stock
Overall length 49"
Weight 8.37 lbs
Blued
I couldn't do a screen grab on the picture, but trust me, it is one fine looking musket.
Chiappa Firearms (http://www.chiappafirearms.com/product/783)
With a twist rate of 1:65 that spells Minnie ball to me, especially the hollow base thick walled type.
With that barrel length and weight I can imagine it to be a great carry gun also.
I'm sure we have a few NSSA members here and they can give you a good assessment of their experience with this rifle, and I also feel sure some of them are likely to see this.
Good on ya, fer yer find!
Uncle Russ
Post by: Buster95 on January 23, 2016, 03:12:59 PM
Post by: rollingb on January 23, 2016, 03:34:31 PM
Post by: Bigsmoke on January 23, 2016, 04:12:52 PM
Really? Sounds more like a round ball twist to me. I guess the Colt was at 1:72, though. I guess nothing is definite. Go figure.
John
Post by: Uncle Russ on January 23, 2016, 05:26:46 PM
Quote from: "bigsmoke"
With a twist rate of 1:65 that spells Minnie ball to me,
Really? Sounds more like a round ball twist to me. I guess the Colt was at 1:72, though. I guess nothing is definite. Go figure.
John
Yep, my Colt "Signature" has the 1:72 "progressive" twist and it literally loves the hard cast Minnie.
The only problem, if such could be said, is the range. Still yet, if it's under 75 yds it's as good as in the freezer
I use the Lyman 575213 565gr.hard cast (bhn-7) Parker Hale Minnie, and the terminal power generated by that huge slug can only be believed by seeing it. Can anyone say "Dyn-o-mite"?
Here is a composite that I put together a few years back with a picture of my then new Colt.
The Bull Elk was just another picture of a Bull to show the effectiveness of that big Minnie. In fact, the only Elk I have ever killed with that rifle was a nice young Cow that I got drawn for one year over in Yakima.......entrance and exit wound was of no significance, but the Minnie entered the chest cavity from the right front and exited "through" the left rear hind quarter, destroying a lot of meat.
But it was a young Cow and the butcher in Yakima gave me back over 200# of nice frozen meat from that Cow.
I can't even start to imagine some of the wounds received during the Civil War, the sawbones seems to always have gotten the Lion's share of the blame, but personally, I think it was that Minnie Ball that should have received most of the blame, as even modern-day surgeons couldn't put the soldiers of that day back together again.
(The experience of those during the Civil War years may well be the exact reason the early 1st.Geneva Convention/ Hague Conventions actually addressed this very same thing. And, Abraham Lincoln addressed his concerns as early 1864.....a very dark day in American history.)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/RussB256/Guns/1861ColtElkRifle.jpg) (http://http)
Uncle Russ...
Post by: rollingb on January 23, 2016, 05:28:41 PM
Quote from: "bigsmoke"
With a twist rate of 1:65 that spells Minnie ball to me,I was kind'a wondering about that too John,.... but, I've never played around with the Civil War era muskets, so I know nuthin' about'em.
Really? Sounds more like a round ball twist to me. I guess the Colt was at 1:72, though. I guess nothing is definite. Go figure.
John
Post by: Uncle Russ on January 23, 2016, 05:41:38 PM
The long barrel and weight of the Colt, and the .69 are just not what some may call call "walk-around" guns.
The old Lyman GPR is my go-to-gun for about any and everything anymore. Love that old gun!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/RussB256/Guns/IM000499.jpg) (http://http)
Geesh! What am I saying?
I have never owned any muzzleloader that I didn't like, a whole lot!
As a side note;
What in the world has happened to Photobucket?
I pull it up lately and I am totally lost...is this supposed to be an improvement?
If it is, then I suspect I need some remedial training on how to use it!
Uncle Russ...
Post by: Uncle Russ on January 23, 2016, 06:41:50 PM
Quote from: "rollingb"
Here is my take on this....and this is strictly my own thinking, based on a somewhat limited experience since I've never belonged to NSSA, and that's the folks who can do a much better job of explaining this than I can.Quote from: "bigsmoke"With a twist rate of 1:65 that spells Minnie ball to me,I was kind'a wondering about that too John,.... but, I've never played around with the Civil War era muskets, so I know nuthin' about'em.
Really? Sounds more like a round ball twist to me. I guess the Colt was at 1:72, though. I guess nothing is definite. Go figure.
John
It seems, from my reading and on some of my own doings, that anything faster than about 1:62 destroys the integrity of the "skirt" or hollow cavity on a Minnie at the exact instant of bump-up, or obturation.
The Minnie, as a rule, is almost twice the length of the diameter which puts the majority of the weight at the front one-half of the bullet.
This resistance, from an object at rest, at initial ignition, puts strain on the "skirt" surrounding the hollow base, and, if the twist rate is too fast at the instant of "engraving", you will get gas cutting or blow-by at the skirt which in turn affects the accuracy tremendously.
This principal is likely the very reason "Progressive, or Gain Twist Rifling" came into being.
During bump-up and at engraving, the rifling is slow, then getting a wee bit faster toward the muzzle to better help stabilize the long hollow base projectile without blowing the skirt as the projectile exists the barrel...the projectile becomes more gyroscopically balanced, if you will.
That is the very reason I use a lead alloy, with a wee bit higher bhn, rather that pure lead which is highly recommended for any Minnie, in most every case, and I choose a very thick skirt which is found on the Parker Hale type casting Moulds.
This, in turn, also allows me to use a little more powder without fear of blowing the skirt of the hollow base Minnie and loosing accuracy.
Can you shoot a Minnie in a .54 or .50cal? Absolutely!
But...you will have to reduce your powder significantly to get any semblance of accuracy.
Here is a very short fer-instance;
With my "hunting load" in my .58 Colt, and using a wee bit higher bhn in my casting, my typical load is 100gr FFg Goex.
If I were to simply "punch paper" all day I would use 40 to 43gr (half-way between 40 & 45) of FFFg Goex, (that is 3F vs 2F) and pure soft lead in my casting.
If I never expect taking a shot longer than 50 or so yards, while hunting, I would use 70gr FFG and pure soft lead for my casting.
Did any of this rambling make sense?
Still clear as mud?
Hopefully someone will come along shortly and fill in all the blank spots I have left, although I am quite sure of what I want to say, I am not all that sure it came out that way.
Uncle Russ...
Post by: rollingb on January 23, 2016, 09:48:32 PM
Post by: Bigsmoke on January 23, 2016, 10:31:06 PM
But then again, they were more interested in throwing out a wall of lead than individual, aimed shots, right? The rifling just gave them a little longer range to engage than the smooth bores did.
Or do I not understand this very well?
I also have never really been that interested in the military scene.
John
Post by: Uncle Russ on January 24, 2016, 12:01:11 AM
I have read that the "Original Load" for the Civil War Musket, used by northern troops, was, I think, about 963fps (certainly less than 1,000fps) when loaded with 69gr. powder and a 510gr Minnie, and the effective aiming range was 100yds, although most were equipped with a ladder sight that ranged to 600yds.
There are "recorded" shots made at much longer distances, but that alone begs the question of "using what rifle".
By casting a Minnie with a bhn of about 7, (vs pure lead with a bhn of 5) and by increasing the powder charge, I am attempting to overcome what many feel is the major draw-back of "ranging" or estimating the range of a given target for sporting purposes.
On a open field, or in the woods, not one person in ten can tell the difference between 75yds and 100yds, and the "drop" on these big heavy Minnie balls moving at any given velocity will drop significantly in that last 25 yds. The one time I fired across a chronograph with my load of 100gr. the velocity was +/- 1250fps with an SD of less than 20fps....that was years ago.
At the time I was very pleased with that as any increase in powder meant I was not going to hit anything.
While looking around to see if I could find something that would better help in the understanding of how twist rate effects larger projectiles used by the common man, but still having nothing to do with the more advance Naval Cannons, or Abram Tanks, I came across this by Chuck Hawes.
"The rate of twist is expressed as one turn in so many inches (i.e. 1 in 10" or 1:10). The twist in a rifle barrel is designed to stabilize the range of bullets normally used in that particular caliber. It takes less twist to stabilize a given bullet at high velocity than at low velocity. At the same velocity in the same caliber, longer (pointed) bullets require faster twist rates than shorter (round nose) bullets of the same weight and heavier bullets require a faster twist than lighter bullets of the same shape. It is undesirable to spin a bullet a great deal faster than necessary, as this can degrade accuracy. A fast twist increases pressure and also the strain on the bullet"
The key to this, IMO, lies in the very last bottom lines, ie "It is undesirable to spin a bullet a great deal faster than necessary, as this can degrade accuracy. A fast twist increases pressure and also the strain on the bullet[/color]"
That is something you don't want to happen when shooting a pure lead Minnie Ball, It pretty much describes what I said before, "you will most certainly damage that thin skirt that forms the hollow base of the Minnie."
Whereas, if that skirt is wee bit harder, a wee bit tougher, and yet remain elastic so you still get good bump-up, you can often increase the powder charge thereby increase your rifle's range effectiveness.
Now see what I done went and done!
I have somehow manage to take away all the excitement I found in Buster95 finding that great looking 58 Musket!
On the other hand, if he is truly interested in shooting the Minnie Ball in that gun, he just might find all this rambling interesting...I certainly hope that's the case and he will forgive me.
What say you Buster95?
Uncle Russ...
Post by: Buster95 on January 24, 2016, 02:28:47 PM
Post by: Buster95 on January 29, 2016, 04:22:24 PM
Post by: Uncle Russ on January 29, 2016, 05:06:35 PM
Quote from: "Buster95"
I just ordered the gun total $645.70 CDN (including shipping and tax). Today $645.70 CDN is $461.17 in US money, not bad I think.
Not bad indeed!
I was seeing the gun from $600 to $900, and you paid the shipping....trust me when I say I've been looking!
I hope beyond hope that you get this Musket and really learn to shoot it well....it will begin a love affair that will last forever!
A Rifled Musket is a hoot to shoot, but they can be cantankerous during in that early learning curve.
The best advise I can give right now is to be sure, actually darn sure, you use the "proper" Minnie Ball.
You should not experience any problem whatsoever with a Roundball and a patch of proper thickness.
When you start shooting those Minnie's, make sure that they have a "thick" skirt, otherwise you may find yourself disappointed and giving up.
Good Luck!
Uncle Russ...
Post by: Buster95 on January 29, 2016, 05:19:26 PM
Post by: Buster95 on January 29, 2016, 05:40:16 PM
Post by: Bigsmoke on January 29, 2016, 05:48:24 PM
With that being said, it probably has the blued steel nipple? If so, I would certainly replace that with a MSM stainless nipple. It is probably 5/16-18 IIRC? You should be able to get that thread for either #11 caps or musket caps. The #11 caps will be a bit less $$$ to shoot, the musket caps will give you more fire to the powder charge. Your choice.
Post by: Uncle Russ on January 29, 2016, 06:30:32 PM
Give the gun a chance. Let it do its thing, then decide if something needs changing.
If it ain't broke don't fix it, has many, many applications in this wonderful sport.
Patience and experimentation with components, changing only one component at a time, are in high demand, and best played out when meticulous notes are taken.
This very important phase of introduction is often overlooked by those to eager.
Uncle Russ...
Post by: dbm on March 10, 2016, 01:04:53 PM
Quote from: "RussB"
...... It seems, from my reading and on some of my own doings, that anything faster than about 1:62 destroys the integrity of the "skirt" or hollow cavity on a Minnie at the exact instant of bump-up, or obturation........
.....This principal is likely the very reason "Progressive, or Gain Twist Rifling" came into being.
During bump-up and at engraving, the rifling is slow, then getting a wee bit faster toward the muzzle to better help stabilize the long hollow base projectile without blowing the skirt as the projectile exists the barrel...the projectile becomes more gyroscopically balanced, if you will..........
The Pattern 1853 Enfield (commonly referred to as the three-band Enfield) had 1 in 78" pitch three groove rifling and 39" barrel. The P.56 Short Rifle with its 33" barrel had the same rifling. The short rifles are often referred to as two-band Enfields.
The P.58 Enfield (Naval Rifle) had a heavier 33" barrel then the P.56 and 1 in 48" five groove rifling. Subsequent Short Rifles, the P.60 & P.61, each had the same barrel weight and rifling as the P.58. The Chiappa rifle with 3 groove 1 in 65 rifling is not a copy any particular Pattern Enfield.
The five groove heavy barreled short rifles have a reputation for good accuracy, and this may also be because the rear sight was further from the eye than on the P.53, giving for some a better sight picture. I've seen both shoot well and here in the UK where we have competition out to 600 yards (sometimes 800 yards). In the 19th Century Rifle Volunteers shooting in Regimental competitions or at the NRA(GB) annual rifle meetings in the 1860s also used them out to 600 yards (generally the P.53, which was their arm of issue).
There's confusion about the term progressive rifling. This is different from gain twist, which as is noted starts with a slow rate of twist (or even straight) then increases in pitch.
The Enfields had progressive depth rifling; ie. the groove depth got shallower towards the muzzle (the bore remaining unchanged). This helped reduce fouling. For the short rifles the grooves were 0.013" deep at the breech and 0.005" deep at the muzzle.
If you're interested in shooting Enfields have a look at the Military Muzzle Loading Rifles (http://http) section of my web site.
David
Post by: Buster95 on May 06, 2016, 09:41:48 PM
(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f337/costaud/Chiappa%20Enfield%201858/Chiappa%20Enfield-1_zpsfa3afepe.jpg) (http://http)
(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f337/costaud/Chiappa%20Enfield%201858/Chiappa%20Enfield-2_zpsgxhyhokv.jpg) (http://http)
(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f337/costaud/Chiappa%20Enfield%201858/Chiappa%20Enfield-3_zpsulhrqeyf.jpg) (http://http)
(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f337/costaud/Chiappa%20Enfield%201858/Chiappa%20Enfield-5_zpsyv2hy0gl.jpg) (http://http)
(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f337/costaud/Chiappa%20Enfield%201858/Chiappa%20Enfield-4_zpsadghtad5.jpg) (http://http)
(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f337/costaud/Chiappa%20Enfield%201858/Chiappa%20Enfield-6_zpsffrawohy.jpg) (http://http)
(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f337/costaud/Chiappa%20Enfield%201858/Chiappa%20Enfield-7_zpsp43jbczv.jpg) (http://http)
Post by: rollingb on May 06, 2016, 11:47:08 PM
..... how long did it take to get it, from the time you ordered it until you received it?
Post by: Buster95 on May 07, 2016, 09:28:24 AM
Quote from: "rollingb"
Good looking rifle,
The gun was in stock when I ordered it but I used the layaway plan of the store.