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Author Topic: Conicals in slow PRB twist?  (Read 6055 times)

Offline Captchee

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« Reply #60 on: February 02, 2009, 06:59:32 PM »
dead is dead  and i can tell you i can drop as deer just as fast with a 22 as any 30.06

Offline tg

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« Reply #61 on: February 02, 2009, 07:58:00 PM »
My point is a simple one, and is not aimed at anyone but everyone, useing a traditionl styled gun and shooting a modern designed bullet is fine if that is what chokes yer chicken, but one should not claim that the above is a tradaitional hunting outfit, this is what I mean in regards to setting the bar for those to come.
and saving the meaning of a truely traditional experience.

Offline mark davidson

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« Reply #62 on: February 03, 2009, 10:01:11 AM »
Charles, I am just going to pretend you did not say that and let it go.  :-)

Now, TG, In all due respect, please clarify for me what a "modern designed bullet" is.  Also, what qualifies as a "traditional hunting outfit"?  What do I have to do to enjoy a "truly traditional experience"?  I shoot a custom 42" barrel FLINTLOCK muzzleloader. It has a large Siler lock with sideplate and double set trigger in curly maple. I shoot Goex 2F real black powder with a Hornady patched round ball. Now is that traditional enough?  Am I good enough to play with you boys?  What if I shoot a conical solid lead projectile?  Is that traditional enough? I killed 7 deer last season with PRB and I would hate to find out now that I somehow tarnished the meaning of a truly traditional experience.  The 7 deer that I killed right before that with black powder were with a Hawken and a more modern bullet. I dare not even tell you what the projectile was!!  This whole "traditional" label is getting pretty old to me and seems a bit  too much like a false badge of honor to be worn only by the self appointed chosen few.  What real difference does it make what I "claim" my outfit is or what someone else "claims" my outfit is.  Make smoke and kill some critters and have fun.  How can a darn rockbanging flintlock muzzleloader NOT be traditional enough?????? Come on!!!!!

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« Reply #63 on: February 03, 2009, 11:24:53 AM »
Quote from: "mark davidson"
Now, TG, In all due respect, please clarify for me what a "modern designed bullet" is.

In my PERSONAL OPINION,.... during the heyday of the simple roundball, the invention of the "conical" was a "modern design" for which the traditional slow twist barrels of the day, did NOT shoot well. With the invention of the conical, also came the invention of faster twist rifleings (in order to stabilize the "then new" modern conical bullets).  

Quote
Also, what qualifies as a "traditional hunting outfit"?

ANY traditional muzzleloader shooting the projectile it was ORIGINALY "designed" to shoot.

Shooting  conicals in a slow-twist Pennsylvania long rifle, is NOT "traditional".


Quote
What do I have to do to enjoy a "truly traditional experience"?  I shoot a custom 42" barrel FLINTLOCK muzzleloader. It has a large Siler lock with sideplate and double set trigger in curly maple. I shoot Goex 2F real black powder with a Hornady patched round ball. Now is that traditional enough?  Am I good enough to play with you boys?

Yep! :?


 
Quote
I killed 7 deer last season with PRB and I would hate to find out now that I somehow tarnished the meaning of a truly traditional experience.

Congratulations,... from a "traditional" perspective you did well. :laffing


Quote
This whole "traditional" label is getting pretty old to me and seems a bit  too much like a false badge of honor to be worn only by the self appointed chosen few.  What real difference does it make what I "claim" my outfit is or what someone else "claims" my outfit is.

Hey, shoot what you want,.... but, don't come on a forum dedicated to "traditional muzzleloading" and call shooting conicals in a longrifle (that was designed for roundballs) traditional.  :shock:  :)
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Offline mark davidson

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« Reply #64 on: February 03, 2009, 12:07:28 PM »
RollingB,  :-)  Great!! Now that is a good honest answer and I do honestly appreciate the information. I did not know or understand that conicals were "considered" modern or at least more modern to the point of non-traditional or at least non standard. I do see now from the purist viewpoint that shooting a conical from a slow twist round ball barrel would be considered non traditional. I also see that "IF" the "traditional" aspect is important to me then I should likely not put a fast tist conical barrel on my flintlock. Is that correct? I am honestly asking. I am kinda new in this so I am not too nit picky yet. I guess I am seeing that for some, the whole gun must be considered right down to the small details. To me just the presence of the flinglock mechanism on the back end would make a rifle about as "traditional" as it gets. That is simply where I am right now.  That is all it takes to transport me to yesteryear and make the connection to the past and make the experience FUN.  Truthfully it was just as much fun for me to slam some deer with the Hawken and a very "modern" bullet. It was still loud and filled the woods with smoke and the freezer with deer. At that point nobody really knew or cared what the projectile was. Again, that is just where I am at this point in the journey.  I like the round ball;  I think I just want (need?) a bigger one! :-) Either way, the quest is fun. Rollingb, I think for now we are past the emotion and sarcasm and communicating effectively. For that I am grateful. :-)

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« Reply #65 on: February 03, 2009, 12:45:58 PM »
Quote from: "mark davidson"
RollingB,  :-)  Great!! Now that is a good honest answer and I do honestly appreciate the information. I did not know or understand that conicals were "considered" modern or at least more modern to the point of non-traditional or at least non standard. I do see now from the purist viewpoint that shooting a conical from a slow twist round ball barrel would be considered non traditional. I also see that "IF" the "traditional" aspect is important to me then I should likely not put a fast tist conical barrel on my flintlock. Is that correct?

That is correct.

Quote
I am honestly asking. I am kinda new in this so I am not too nit picky yet. I guess I am seeing that for some, the whole gun must be considered right down to the small details. To me just the presence of the flinglock mechanism on the back end would make a rifle about as "traditional" as it gets. That is simply where I am right now.  That is all it takes to transport me to yesteryear and make the connection to the past and make the experience FUN.  Truthfully it was just as much fun for me to slam some deer with the Hawken and a very "modern" bullet. It was still loud and filled the woods with smoke and the freezer with deer. At that point nobody really knew or cared what the projectile was. Again, that is just where I am at this point in the journey.


Like TG stated, if that's what "floats your boat, then great",.... and as I mentioned, this forum is dedicated to the preservation of "traditional" muzzleloading, and we try very hard to give advice on exactly "what" that is.
However, nobody is gonna yell at you for being a "bit" non-traditional,... BUT,.... your "reasoning" for being so, will most likely be questioned.


Quote
I like the round ball;  I think I just want (need?) a bigger one! :-) Either way, the quest is fun. Rollingb, I think for now we are past the emotion and sarcasm and communicating effectively. For that I am grateful. :-)

Yep,... (as has already been stated a page'er 2 back) if you want "more power", go to a bigger roundball and bigger powder charge (that was the traditional way of hunting "bigger" game before the invention of the "conical").
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Offline mark davidson

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« Reply #66 on: February 03, 2009, 02:15:40 PM »
Well, OK, We are on the right track now. I better understand the motives and purposes here. I suppose as a new player here I kinda assumed it was mostly about the guns and muzzleloading and shooting in general. I do and will respect your efforts to preserve the pure traditional aspects of muzzleloading. To be honest as an outsider or recent convert I must say that to some new folks like me, that whole focus on "traditionalism" however well intentioned can be a turn off. It comes across as elitist and "do it this one way or don't play." I have run across this same mentality for two decades in traditional archery and the battle still rages on traditional archery sites. I suppose I brought some of that prejudice against "traditionalism" with me like a chip on my shoulder when I started playing on here. For that I do apologize. I appreciate the help and info. I have gotten here and hope I have in some way contributed something as well.  To me, the main thing is to win some folks over to our old (or at least older) way of doing things first and then work to tweak them into complete correctness if that is what they want as well. If not, we should help them anyway to make smoke and make meat and have FUN!

Offline cb

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« Reply #67 on: February 03, 2009, 03:27:51 PM »
Quote
ANY traditional muzzleloader shooting the projectile it was ORIGINALY "designed" to shoot.

Not to start a flame, but would that also include the gent who in 1847 was shooting 1" long conicals from his 1/48" twist J & S Hawken? Me thinks the gent wasn't concerned about whether it was purpose designed or not - and that's but one example of folks using conicals in their non-designed for firearms....the info is out there......
While we cannot say that the Hawken was positively a 1/48", all of the info we have regarding the Hawken shop is they used a 1/48" twist excursively.  

As for modern conical designs - while the folks who designed than state they are not based on original designs (per tg) some such as the ballet  are so close to original designs that they are virtually indistinguishable. Also FWIW the earliest designed conicals were made to be shot with a patch - not bare......

FWIW - I've been shooting muzzleloaders since 1962 and am a dyed in the wool "traditionalist" (whatever that exactly means, it does vary dependent on many factors) - I learned from Great Uncle, who owned but two guns, a rifle and a double smoothbore, both late 19th century muzzleloaders. I have shot all kinds over the years and love them all.......I use and have used round balls almost exclusively, except for my rifled muskets and my old two groove Purdey which shot both belted round balls and winged conicals, but frankly ahve nothing against those who stay with the spirit of such but don;t get my knickers in a knot over some one shooting something reasonably traditional...
Frankly I have nothing against any one elses shooting irons except as in the case of some of the inliners who want to prevent the traditionalists from using their chosen firearm...

Quote
With the invention of the conical, also came the invention of faster twist rifleings
Actually fast twist rifling was being employed by the English long before the conicals were used to any extent.......
Again not to start a flame what is "traditional" depends on who, when, and where - if this group chooses to define it as to a certain place and time only then I respectfully suggest that they so define the "rules" for others.........I would also suggest that too narrow of a definition based on personal viewpoints rather than history can and will turn folks off...........

If my statements are found to be unacceptable to this forum and/or group then I will most graciously bow out and refrain from further posts..........
Chuck Burrows aka Grey Wolf

Offline sse

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« Reply #68 on: February 03, 2009, 04:09:09 PM »
The working definition here is rather broad.  The TMA has worked to be inclusive as to its membership and general discussions.  If someone wants to debate what is traditional, or not, that is fine, but it may not have much to do with the guidelines set by the TMA, or allowable scope of discussion.  Otherwise, in addition to limiting our membership, and potentially hindering traditional interests, we'd be spending all of our time bickering about the definition of traditional, which can equate to chasing one's tale.  I understand we do narrow the standards down some, where our postal shoots and min-rondy's are concerned.
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« Reply #69 on: February 03, 2009, 05:39:21 PM »
Quote from: "cb"
Quote
ANY traditional muzzleloader shooting the projectile it was ORIGINALY "designed" to shoot.

Not to start a flame, but would that also include the gent who in 1847 was shooting 1" long conicals from his 1/48" twist J & S Hawken? Me thinks the gent wasn't concerned about whether it was purpose designed or not - and that's but one example of folks using conicals in their non-designed for firearms....the info is out there......
While we cannot say that the Hawken was positively a 1/48", all of the info we have regarding the Hawken shop is they used a 1/48" twist excursively.  


CB,.... I doubt that the gent in 1847 was concerned about "tradition" either,... in fact, I doubt that many/any folks back then were attempting to "preserve" tradition at all.

Anybody know what mold came with a new Hawken rifle back then (roundball, or, conical)?
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Offline tg

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« Reply #70 on: February 03, 2009, 06:15:57 PM »
Like I said I don't know how to put it any plainer a bullet designed in the last half of the 20th century without any use of earlier ML bullest as a guideline is not a traditional bullet, if yo have a nice  flinter that follows the lines of the originals most would consider it to be a traditional gun, if you use a PRB or a style of bullet that was avaiable during the time period of the flinter it would be a traditional outfit (with primitive sights) shove the 20th century bullet down the tube and it is not, one can take a traditional gun use a modern bullet,fast twist barrel and modern peep sights and create a significant advantage over the traditional gun and primitive sights and period projectile. You can call yopur outfit and your self whatever you want,I just look to the logic, ballistics and facts when judging  gun and gear to be traditional or not, I do not think it is fair to those who are new to the sport to be fed a watered down definition of traditional, I don't know why people have to spin the modern stuff into the traditional world, i can only assume it is from some sense of belonging to a group that is trying to maintain the ways of the original ML hunters and use the same ype of gear they did, as I have said before you can take a Renagade or similar gun, put modern high tech sights on it and use a modern design bullet which neither of the two  would have been used on a similar gun in the past, and theony difference in that gun and a modern Inline is the position of the hammer, If you soup up an old style ML to be equal in range and ballistics as a large bore (45/70) cartridge gun you are no longer in the traditional ML world, but if it makes someone feel better to toss the term loosley around that's their right to do so but the majority of those who try to share the experience of gun and gear that out ancestors did know what the real deal is, I don't think here is much point in going any farther with this, if the oint is not driven home after this many posts it is never likley to be understood. I have no interest in what someone shoots only an interest in keeping a reasonable definition of that which is traditional vs that which is modern, set the bar to low and there is no point in even trying to seperate the two, and if we get to that point the ML's may be at risk as much as the centerfires when it comes to gun laws, Many states had shotgun/archery only deer hunts due to heavly urban areas the shorter range weapons were the choice authorities made, now most of these have included ML's which can be loaded to shoot out to 250 yds with all the modern accesories, and yes there were ML's in the past that shot 1000 yds but to stay in the realm of what type of ML's people are useing to hunt with today, once the powers that be see what the potential is for a ML they may vary well be classefied with modern guns, most are down on modern ML's use in ML hunting seasons but at the same time many advocate the use of accesories that put the traditional styed sidelock in the same range and ballistic category as the dreaded inline, the position of the lock is not and never has been the issue it does not alter the guns performance in a manner that is even close to what superior sights and projectiles do. At any rate call it what you wish, but do try and consider those yet to enjoy this sport and let's not modernize the "tradition"out of it completely.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 06:34:24 PM by tg »

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« Reply #71 on: February 03, 2009, 06:20:39 PM »
Quote from: "mark davidson"
Well, OK, We are on the right track now. I better understand the motives and purposes here. I suppose as a new player here I kinda assumed it was mostly about the guns and muzzleloading and shooting in general. I do and will respect your efforts to preserve the pure traditional aspects of muzzleloading. To be honest as an outsider or recent convert I must say that to some new folks like me, that whole focus on "traditionalism" however well intentioned can be a turn off. It comes across as elitist and "do it this one way or don't play."

If my personal opinion gives you the impression that the TMA does not allow shooting lead conicals from a longrifle,.... (which I have never said) then I apologize.

If I've given you the impression that the TMA is dedicated to preserveing the "pure traditional aspects" of muzzleloading (whatever that is, because it isn't even possible in these modern times),.... then I apologize.

If I have came across as an elitist, by saying "do it this way or don't play",.... (and although I've never said that),.... then I apologize.

However,... I readily welcome ANYBODY to show me where the conical bullet failed to change the way shoulder fired weapons were "designed" throughout the (short) declining years of "traditional" muzzleloading firearms.
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Offline mark davidson

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« Reply #72 on: February 04, 2009, 09:43:51 AM »
Rollingb, Sir, there is absolutely no apology of any kind necessary for me and my part. We have just had a pretty educational discussion over the past few days. The inability to hear voice tone and see facial expression on these forums often causes many comments to be misunderstood and taken out of context. I visited my custom MLer builder yesterday afternoon and I am going to just build a .62 cal. from scratch and shoot the PRB and see how that goes. I read the quote, "Caliber is all to the ball"  in the Blackpowder Handbook by Fadala so I am going to take it to heart and see if the 350 rb will do a bit better job on game than the 230rb I have been shooting.

Offline Captchee

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« Reply #73 on: February 04, 2009, 10:04:10 AM »
Mark , don’t pretend anything  and im simply stating a fact .
Dead is dead , there is simply no way around that .
 Something as small as a cactus needle will gill just as quickly as a 155 TOD if that needle itself is driven into the  hart of any living   entity.

I am not exaggerating here at all . Growing up   most of us , I say most as being those who lived around us  Used 22  for mule deer .
 Now that’s not to say your taking a 100 yard shot . that’s simply not the case
 But at 20-30 yards or closer . A 22 hornet   placed  correctly will give you a  dead drop
 Just as any other  caliber will .
 I have taken 2 cow elk with that same 22 .  Both were taken in the salmon river area  from hay stacks  and at less then 15 yards
 I still have that rifle  and would be glad to show you photos if you like , minus the sling , its still set up the very same way it was when I was a boy . Its simply not an issue  as it was not  uncommon .

 See the pint is  and IMO  its one we have gotten away from through the years is  that  we now  seem to need to over caliber everything we shoot.. We have lost an understanding of the weapons systems themselves .

 If a person knows the  rifle they are using  . Both it and your effective range  and that person  gets to within that range  then places the shot to where it NEEDS to go , the result will always be the same  IE death .
 That death will come just a quick and sure  regardless of the caliber
 Today as I  said , many folks have forgotten how to do their part . Thus they want larger and larger calibers to make up for that  loss . they want magnum loads , high velocity rounds  that will reach out to  great distances  and still do the deed .
 But the simple fact of the mater is that  if they would  just simply  take the effort to get closer  and learn their weapon , become confident in their ability to pace the shot where their Chosen projectile needs to go . They would have better results .

So as to the question , what is  effective . What is ethical and what is not . Well that  depends on  at what range  and the person  trying to effect that range

 In this family we have since I was a boy only owned 5 center fire rifle  and those rifles took everything from elk , to bear to Mule deer .
 Of those 5  on 2 are larger then a 22 .  Those would be a 6.5X55 swed and a Winchester 30.30 . that’s it .
 Tell I came back from the service , the biggest shot gun we owned was a 20 gage . 3 other’s were .410  and they took everything from grouse - turkey to sand hill Crain and geese  with no problems .
 This is why I say dead is dead
Later ill dig some  photos out  and prove that to you

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« Reply #74 on: February 04, 2009, 10:06:43 AM »
Mark, that is good news,... and I'm sure you'll be impressed and very happy, when you see how the .62 compares with your .54,... the bigger the ball, the harder they hit.  :)
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