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Author Topic: Plains rifle  (Read 2772 times)

Offline Shawnee Mike

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Plains rifle
« on: February 07, 2010, 02:59:39 PM »
Hello All,
Im NOT talking about the "Hawken" rifle.
   Does anyone know when "FLINTLOCK" rifles were made commonly available in a "HALF" stock configuration for the general population?
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Offline Shawnee Mike

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plains rifle
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2010, 04:38:57 PM »
Osayo,
OK  That makes sense,  Thank you.
   I ask as I have a half stock flint rifle in 45 cal.  it has a 38 inch barrel.  I was wondering if it would fit any historical time frame.
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Offline Shawnee Mike

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plains rifle
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2010, 05:23:37 PM »
Naw,
Its a new one. Well sort of.  Had it since 82.  was thinking it might fall into the early 1800s range   What do you think?
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Offline Captchee

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« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2010, 06:59:47 PM »
actualy ,, if i may here ,
Erichson in Texsas was making half stock flintlocks  as early as the late 1830's



Gustavus Erichson was a gun maker, gunsmith, and gun dealer in Houston from 1838 until 1872. Two of his sons, Otto and Alexander, continued the business until the 1890s.
An amazing rifle has just been discovered hidden away in the vault at the Sam Houston Memorial Museum in Huntsville, Texas. An original flintlock rifle that appears to have been stocked in Houston as early as 1840 and stamped G. ERICHSON HOUSTON. TEXAS. on the lock and the barrel. Mounted in iron with a pewter nosecap, stocked in walnut. This large rifle measures 61 inches overall and has a 43 5/8", .51 caliber, swamped barrel. The rifle is in fine shape and, at this time, is the only known Texas marked flintlock sporting rifle.



Offline IronDawg

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« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2010, 10:59:17 PM »
Wow how cool izzat!!  Poured end cap?? Do you know or can you tell if the RR goes in to bar ewood or does it have an entry thimble??
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Offline Captchee

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« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2010, 09:04:18 AM »
cant tell really for sure but to me it looks like it has an entry thimble .
 i would think if a person contacted the Museum , they would be able to answer your questions

Offline Pete_Sheeran

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« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2010, 12:25:48 PM »
Capchee,
That is an interesting rifle.  I have been trying to keep track of early 1/2 stocks in flintlock.  There are at least 2 in Shumway's book on Jaeger Rifles from his Muzzle Blasts articles "Our Germanic Rifle Heritage".  Those are both from the mid and late !700's.  

The British seemed to start to go toward the 1/2 stock as a new style in the late 1780's.  

Whisker's book on Virginia rifles has one 1/2 stock flintlock from about 1810.  (The Americans came later to the 1/2 stock table.)

There is quite a strong debate on whether or not J & S Hawkens ever built any flintlock plains rifles and if they did, were they full stock or 1/2 stock.  Some say the flint Hawken in the Smithsonian was not originally flint?  Then there is supposed to be a flint Hawken in Nebraska that Ron Long copied (cast) for his flintlock in the 70's (business since sold to Tom Faux, and then to the Hawken Shop in WA.)

It is difficult to say when the first 1/2 stock flintlocks came about, but I think it was about the time of the double flint, side by side shotguns!  SxS were not full stocked, but you can not really call them 1/2 stocks either since there is no wood wrapping up to the side of the barrel in the forearm to thr muzzle.

See Ya,  Pete
« Last Edit: August 03, 2010, 09:53:21 PM by Pete_Sheeran »
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Online Craig Tx

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« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2010, 06:34:36 PM »
It figures it was hidden away...

I would have loved to have seen it on display when I was goin' to Sam Houston State University (Early '80's), right across the road from the museum...


  :evil:


Craig
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Offline Mike R

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« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2010, 11:39:24 AM »
note the barrel length on that Texas rifle.  Half stock longrifles were made in flint, but the typical "plains rifle" as most know it today was the product of the 1840s-50s [lasting through the Civil War] and was percussion.  The classic Hawken was percussion.  Alot of folks WANT flintlocks these days and are willing to put them on what were percussion era style guns...each to his own as my ol' pappy used to say...
Ch Mbr#53 ,dues in Feb

Offline Shawnee Mike

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« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2010, 08:10:00 PM »
Osayo All,
Yes Cap, Mine looks very simillar to that one.  Not quite as long a barrel.  I think mine is 38 inches.  But overall, looks just like that.
   Thanks for the thoughts guys.
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Offline Sean

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« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2010, 08:03:24 AM »
I would not necessarily assume based on that picture that the rifle we are discussing was originally flint.  It was not unheard of for collectors to 'reconvert' guns that may never have been flint and early reconversions often used a cock like that one.  You'd have to get some more pictures and maybe even get the gun in hand to tell for sure, but the capbox suggests that it was likely a post 1830's piece and well into the period when caplocks were becoming common.  That said Henry Leman made quite a few flintlocks with capboxes.

Thoughts on barrel length...  Long barreled halfstocks were quite common in the 1840's in the South and West.  The 'Parkman' rifle has a 43" barrel IIRC, Tobin's rifle is almost 40", and there are a several surviving long barreled half stock southern guns (arguably possibly cut down from full stock).  Just because its a half stock doesn't mean it has to be short.

Sean

Offline Captchee

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« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2010, 08:56:53 AM »
Good point Sean.
 Most times however   there is some mention of that  in the museums information.
So far and  granted I have not researched this rifle  very far , past what you  see here . There is no mention of a conversion. That however doesn’t mean much  when you consider also the regularity of museums  getting it wrong

Also  The possibility of a conversion is a two way street  .
 While sometimes caplocks were converted to flint . Its far more probable to find a flint  that’s converted to cap .
 While sometimes  that conversion is noticeable  by the lock plate on the converted rifle . A quality conversion , done by a gunsmith  is not as noticeable / many times taking  a hands on approach to even discern the conversion .

 Then we run into the same old topic we have had many times before .

 HOW  PREVILANT WERE PRECUSSION RIFLES  PRE 1840.

 Comes back to the same things .
 Yes there  are large amounts of caps  showing up on  inventory lists .  However when you get down to it  those numbers are still small
 We also can document  cap lock pistols . Again relatively small numbers .
 The number of accounted for rifles ????/
 I think you see where im going with this .

 So why don’t we see more  original flint rifles ????
 Well  for now , we have to speculate .
 Myself though I  hold the opinion that very few of the  original half stock cap locks that survive today , ever saw actual hard use by  the trappers we so often  attribute them to .
 Those we can attribute and  connect  cap lock rifles two  , Bridger , Medina ,  and the like , are recorded very near that 1840 line .

 Then we come down to the Hawkens rifle and its holly grail  flintlock half stock .
 To assume that the Hawkens Bros. did not produce such a rifle .

 The Hawkens produce relatively small numbers of rifles compared to  many of the other gun companies out there . They also came from a family line of gunsmiths that date well back into the early 1700’s

 So  IMO we have to go on  the  question of  why so many Hawkens  half stock  caplocks

1) eather  the cap lock was very prevalent in the pre 1840  dates . In all environments. Of which  that’s hard to prove with today records or they were producing rifles  for a market where the ignition system was prevalent .  Which we can document . IE urban areas
2) the rifles we  see are later  rifles . Which IMO  is more then likely . They system  by its very need , has to be re supplied .  As times changed and more and more trading posts began to pop up .  Those supplies were more readily available    .

 This also leads us to the 1840 date . What is the 1840 date ?
 Simply put nothing more then the date  of the last major  fur company rendezvous in the rocky mountains.
 Its not the end of the fur trade . In fact its not the end of the rendezvous.

 What im getting at here is that  today we have a tainted picture of  what the  western trappers actually looked like    .
 In so many words ist a man with a full beard  . Wearing a big  skin hat ,  holding a half stock  percussion rifle . And sitting atop a fine horse .
 that’s a picture painted by dime store novels and Hollywood .

 As steve mentioned . The prevalence of half stock flintlock  sporting rifles . In Europe is  fairly prevalent . Not really so here . But  the reason could simply be that  do to their environment of use , far fewer  survived in their original form

Offline Pete_Sheeran

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« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2010, 09:03:04 AM »
Sean wrote:
Thoughts on barrel length... Long barreled halfstocks were quite common in the 1840's in the South and West. The 'Parkman' rifle has a 43" barrel IIRC, Tobin's rifle is almost 40", and there are a several surviving long barreled half stock southern guns (arguably possibly cut down from full stock). Just because its a half stock doesn't mean it has to be short.

I don't know that any of those rifles had swamped barrels?  That might suggest that the maker of the Texas 1/2 stock was actually restocking an older piece, complete with flintlock.

Pete
« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 11:01:33 AM by Pete_Sheeran »
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Offline Mike R

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« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2010, 11:00:30 AM »
as to prevalence of caplocks west of the Mississippi: In 1831 merchants in St Louis advertised they had over 2 million perc caps on hand for sale--to me that implies a demand.  Audabon reports that he personally first saw a percussion rifle in New Orleans at that same time--perhaps the southerners were a little more backward than the frontiersman that shopped in St Louis...Of course, percussion caps have also been found by archeologists in the Alamo [1836].  That said, flintlocks held on in many areas and with many hunters until as late as the Civil War, when most switched to percussion--then shortly afterwards to cartridge guns.  Turnbo's articles on the early history of the Ozarks mentions often flintlocks in use there in the 1840s-50s. So, such a rifle as the Texas one posted here is certainly possible and plausable for ca. 1840.
Ch Mbr#53 ,dues in Feb

Offline Captchee

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« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2010, 01:30:28 PM »
.  some time back we had a discussion about the alamo . the AHS put out a very  complete  study showing no percussion rifles at the alamo past a couple side arms  . thus discounting many reports

 so any caps they  must be accounting for a later date .

  we also know that caps  were highly prevalent  quickly in urban areas  very early .
 There are also accounts of traders bring  thousands to  the voosss . However those numbers do not match the numbers of percussion rifles being brought to those vooo’s

 So lets say a trader brought 100,000 caps to a vooo . That seems a lot .
But  in actuality   if they had  100 trappers with  100 percussion rifles . Each trapper  stocking 1000 caps . ,,,, those numbers become very few

 Same with the 2 million . When we consider the numbers of rifles being sold in a given area  2 million because a minuscule number .
 My wife alone goes through over 1000 caps a year .
  that’s  not the caps of old either. And the caps are always protected . Either in the house  or  in the shoot box . Not being  packed all over  or stored in some cash .
 she is also only shooting at events . not every day

 There is no doubt that  the  percussions  system   was spreading  by the mid to late 1830-1840 . But what was available in St Lewis or  HB supplies , relates little to what  was actually being requested  in the rocky mountains .
 Untell such time as we can find large numbers of percussion rifles  being requested or being haled to  where the trappers were . Its going to simply be very hard to say that  the percussion system was more prevalent  no mater how many caps may have been available
 Kinda like  proclaiming the flintlock the standard  and most common firearm ignition system in this country during the same time , base soul on the total number of available gun flints  being marketed

 the only thing it means is that there was a supply . doesnt mean its a needed supply