Plains rifle

[cb]

Here's some info regarding guns in Texas during the early 1840's:

In 1843 Captain Philip St. George Cooke, in command of a dragoon detachment patrolling an area along the north bank of the Arkansas River, encountered a band of Texas "irregulars/freeboters" who were threatening a Santa Fe caravan. Anticipating trouble from the captain and his frontier-toughened troops, the Texans hastily concealed a number of their best weapons (including some Colt repeating rifles), but Cooke nevertheless relieved them of various other guns, including muskets, shotguns, pistols, and rifles.

Among the rifles Cooke confiscated and later turned in at Fort Leavenworth were:
30 flint lock rifles, valued at eighteen dollars each, including the barrel of one which has no stock, which appears to have been lost in transportation.
12 percussion rifles, valued at twenty two dollars and fifty cents, including the barrel of one which has no stock. . . .
3 half stock Middletown rifles, percussion lock, valued at eighteen dollars each.
1 full stock percussion lock [Middletown rifle], valued at eighteen dollars.
1 halfstock flint lock Middletown rifle, valued at eighteen dollars.
The "Middletown rifles" were probably altered U.S. Model 1817 contract arms made by Simeon North
Totals: 31 flinters and 16 percussion

Besides the forty-seven rifles and two "American dragoon carbines" (Hall's maybe - could be either flint or caplock) the Texans were carrying twenty-eight smoothbores of various types:
15 English flint lock shot guns.
3 Tower pieces (most likely India pattern Brown Bess flinters)
1 Large American flint lock shot gun.
2 Double barrelled flint lock, stub and twist, shot guns.
4 Percussion lock, double barreled, stub and twist, shot guns.
1 American musket.
2 Texas muskets (most likely the flintlock M1822 type muskets supplied to Texas by Tryon of Philadelphia in 1840 and marked Texas with a star on the lockplates) - a total of 860 were purchased out of the 1,500 ordered.
Totals: 23 flinters and 4 caplock - the American musket could be of either ignition so was not included in the totals.

The Texas "freebooters" were also rather well equipped with pistols -  Cooke confiscated:
4 pairs of flint lock holster pistols, valued at twenty dollars a pair.
2 pairs percussion lock pistols, valued at forty dollars a pair.
8 flint lock holster pistols, odd, valued at ten dollars apiece.
7 percussion lock belt pistols, valued at fifteen dollars apiece.
1 percussion lock duelling pistol, valued at forty dollars.
Totals: 16 flinters and 13 caplock - just about half and half

Along with the above we also know that in 1834 and later rifles were converted to percussion in the field or at the various posts such as Ft Hall. Another piece of info is the gunshop at the Waiilatpu Mission which ended business in 1847, was excavated and the majority of parts found were percussion.
Regarding half-stocks, Hnery first built them in 1831 and was selling them to the western market by 1836. While this is within the early percussion period, flintlocks were still widely used and available so they may have also been offered in flint, but further research is needed.

However those numbers do not match the numbers of percussion rifles being brought to those vooo’s

The "problem" wit that is the trade lists don't specify whether rifles were cap or flinter and two the number of rifles on the trade lists is far less than the number purchased by the fur companies - one reason being that the companies supplied many of there men with said rifles and were this not trading them (this is documented).

[Sean]

Sean,
I don't now that any of those rifles had swamped barrels?  That might suggest that the maker was actually restocking an older piece, complete with flintlock.

Pete

Pete,

I've seen swamped barrel guns that appeared to have dated to the 1850's, so I don't neccessarily think that alone is a good characteristic for dating a gun.  That gun does not look like a restock to me, it just looks later than the 1830's.  Again, you can't say a lot from that picture, so its all speculation.

Sean

[Captchee]

ohhh come on CB , by your own list  cap guns are just starting to be seen .
Adding  up your  listed , unless I missed something . as im sicker then a dog right now .
 You list 69 flintlocks and 32 cape locks  . that’s a pretty small %
  Even if we dumped everything but the early 1840  list that you provided . The  numbers of flintlocks within that one  account is still 2 X the numbers of cap locks in 1840 .

 Myself by that time , I would have expected the split to be the other way around

 Do we know how many caps  those rifles were supplied with ?
1000x per year ? 2000  maybe more ?
 that’s what im getting at here .
. When you have gun companies pouring latterly 1000’s of rifles into  the market . Suddenly a  50 thousand to 2 million caps being marketed  is very little .
 Especially when you consider, if it was anything like today . Cap production far ,FAR exceeds the numbers of rifles produced
 If we trully want to get to the hart of this . The answer lies in the use  of those caps .
 How many did an experience person ,  who had only the ability to re supply  once a year , carry with him ?
1000, 10,000. Maybe cash  90% ?

 But  untell we know that information . Lists like you have just posted prove the point im trying to make . Even as late as the early 1840 . Percussion systems were still a small %.
 If that were not the case , why lug  along so many out dated rifles , that no one wanted . That were  considered out dated un reliable ?

 The only reason IMO to show more of one type of ignition over another , is that  the ignition with the greatest Numbers was still considered to me  the  weapon with the greatest  prospect of use  or trade

 Kinda like a car salesman  who has  a hand full of those new electric cars .
 I can by one of his fords do  15,000 or  one of those electric jobbers for 45,000.
 Ill take the ford thank  you .

 Myself . I think that same mind set held for a very large % of folks , well into the later 1840’s before the cappers became  rather common ..

anyway , back to bed ,,,,,,

[cmdrted]

This is unscientific but might be relavant to the discussion and the inferences are obvious.  Look to today.  The colt 1911 is 100 years old, "replaced" by what is thought to be better gun yet it soldiers on.  An archeologist from the 23rd century might say the newer Beretta was availble from the 70s or so but in smaller numbers. The 1911 being the more typical gun. Also with respect to you and your wife Captchee, a typical hunter doesn't expend hundreds of rounds in a year.  Most of the older deer hunters in central pa have a box of 30-30 that has lasted them a few years.  They resight in and reverify their sight picture and save the rounds for the hunt.  Maybe more rounds for meat and furs and of course self defense.

[Shawnee Mike]

Outstanding info guys,
Thanks so much for all your thoughts and info.

[Captchee]

Also with respect to you and your wife Captchee, a typical hunter doesn't expend hundreds of rounds in a year. Most of the older deer hunters in central pa have a box of 30-30 that has lasted them a few years. They resight in and reverify their sight picture and save the rounds for the hunt. Maybe more rounds for meat and furs and of course self defense.

 you are correct  we dont today . however how much did  the average  trapper carry  or use in a year
 lead could be re constituted . but not counted on  to  be  reclaimed .
caps on the other hand  are a one shot deal .
 the caps of  150 years ago also are not the caps of today
 so now magnify all the issues with todays caps .
 place then  in an environment of constant  change . Myself I don’t thing even 2000 caps per hunter would be  sufficient

 now add in that you could not re supply  if accidents  came about .

  lets say you may not get back to Rendezvous for 2 years
 How many caps are you really going to need .
 If we go back and read some of the accounts of Ashley  and even hennery . We find that  they were shooting furs , just as much as trapping furs .
 Lets go farther back  to the hide hunters  of the east . .
 How many hides did Boone Loose after a full  years hunting ?
  not just once mind you . but a couple times .

 Now  put a cap lock in boones hands . There is at least 1 cap for every hide .
 I would suspect that  back then , they would have only shot when they needed to . Yet always had a loaded gun . So now  we have to add in the % of caps that  simply had to be replaced  because the fell off  while the rifle leaned against a tree , or  while   being slung across the saddle horn  or just from fumble fingers .

As to the 1911 .  I owned several as well as had several issued to me through the years .
 The reason that it stayed in service , while many others went to the 9mm was because  of .,,,, how should I put this , ,,, a mind set .. The side arm is a close quarters piece .  Myself if things got so bad I needed to pull my side arm , then I wanted something that would hit hard enough  to put the issue to rest and keep it there . not pussy foot around the subject .
 thats why  the 1911  stays on . but its a constant battle between  those who   feel a need only to make a point vs those who feel an need to to not only make a point  but not have to make it a secound time

[Gordon H.Kemp]

Some very iinteresting information has been put forth in this discussion. I have to agree with capt. about the numbers of caps used by any one individual.  Overall I would have to guess that the numbers of caps that became un usable due to moisture contamination and falty construction was much greater then , then now. I also  suspect that under the stress and other conditions wind and cold etc. , they fumbled and dropped more onaverage then we do today. There is also the problem of cleaning , to me it's much easier to clean a flinter then a caplock. The hpghly corrosive chemicals chemicals used in the old primers was bound to cause faster and more severe damage to the weapon then plain black powder.

[swampman]

IMO and based on period quotes the cap lock was prevalent in the pre 1840s furtrade and flintlocks fell into disuse quickly.  That's not a popular opinion for sure.  I believe that 1/2 stock flintlock "Mountain Man" era rifles were very rare if any existed at all.

I think it's best not to try and find documentation to support our desires, but rather to accept it for what it is.

[Captchee]

IMO and based on period quotes the cap lock was prevalent in the pre 1840s furtrade and flintlocks fell into disuse quickly.  That's not a popular opinion for sure.  I believe that 1/2 stock flintlock "Mountain Man" era rifles were very rare if any existed at all.

I think it's best not to try and find documentation to support our desires, but rather to accept it for what it is.

  Exactly my point .
 But documentation must be complete . Not speculated .
 Large # of caps do not = large numbers of rifles .
Peoples want today of half stock percussion  rifles doesn’t  exactly fit  the records either, when it comes to pre 1840 . Which had become the accepted date of the end of the fur trade rendezvous. Which in fact also isn’t true  .

 Taken as a whole IMO , no mater how much we want to believe it . I just don’t see how we can  make a statement  that  by the 1840 date  percussion systems had became the prevalent ignition system .
For that mater found in every  persons hands .
 Not only can such a statement NOT be  supported by sound and complete records  , it goes completely against human nature .
 Very much like stating that once the rifle came about , all smoothbores became obsolete .
 We know that’s not the case .
Again this isnt about  percussion existing or not . that’s un disputed  even  in the early 19th century . But can we  definitively place that  prominence of that system  to a greater number  pre the fictitious 1840 date  using  gun companies   orders as well as production  #  .
 I don’t believe we can.
I would also say that  prevalent is a mater  of location .
 Take the Hawkens rifles .  Where were the highest numbers of those rifles distend for ?
 From  what I have read the largest % were  going to the santa fa   trail and the south west .
 Not to say there wasn’t also orders for the  rocky mountain fur trade . Nope not saying that at all .
 But by todays opinion , one could easily conclude that the hawken rifle was  what everyone carried .
  However that opinion cannot be supported by  documentation . Even base production documentation  when compared to the numbers of rifles  produced by the likes of Hennery , Lehman, Derringer, .

 As such my take is that  if we are to try to support such  statements then we must look at the total picture .IE
* numbers of actual rifle orders
* numbers of actual   parts needed for  the system . IE we have the caps . But where are the numbers of  nipples for those caps . Or are we to believe that   these men went into the mountains with only one nipple for their rifles
*  what was the reliability of  the components themselves  
* we need to see actual numbers of items  felt to be needed for a given time period

All this needs to then be factored into  with the region of use  factored in

 I think there is a lot more to  substantiating  the  word “prevalence”  then  just  taking a account out of context and claiming it as proof

[flintlock62]

Not pretending to be a historian, I would believe there were a few that would have been sceptical of the new percussion system. For one thing, they used fulminate of mercury in the first caps which had a short shelf life and supseptable to moisture.  They did not water proof caps at the time.  This would make the flintlock still superior in some respects.  Flints could be found in any creek bed, but once a cap is wet, it is gone.  Historical accounts of the time are too vague to say how the transistion really went. If I were to live the mountian man life today, I would definately choose a flinter over a cap lock.  Someone living near a township would have had better access to fresh supplies.  Of course, at times I am able to fit both feet in my mouth at the same time, and I wear size 12 EE.

[cb]

They did not water proof caps at the time

Sorry - not true. Water proof caps were made very early on - circa 1827 is the earliest date I have documented for them.

Flints could be found in any creek bed

Also not true - while one can at times find a usable rock it's not as easy as one supposes to find a rock that will spark well as well as one that will spark consistently. Secondly if flints were so widely available in the wild why were they being imported and sold in the thousands?
Also there are several primary docs that mention the fact that many of the flinters were not always of the best quality, there are other period citations for men being without flints and needing to be supplied, and in one year, 1827, Robert Campbell mentioned that ALL of the powder that year was of such poor quality that their guns would often not fire at all.
If one chooses to use the logic that it's better to carry a flinter than a caplock due to the ability to pick up a rock, than the same logic would apply to using guns at all - a bow and arrows can be made on the spot from available materials, where as a gun needs not only a flint or cap, but also powder (which could be of either poor quality or ruined from repeated immersions, etc.) and lead to work - lose any of the three and you've got a poorly designed club left.......

............

I just don’t see how we can make a statement that by the 1840 date percussion systems had became the prevalent ignition system .

It's not just the date that matters, but where as well. Records do show that in the more settled areas east of the Mississippi, that the percussion did become very prominent by the late 1820's/early 1830's, and even half-stocks of various types were being built in larger numbers here in the US by the mid-1830's.

I truly love my flinters and have for nigh onto fifty years, but making more of them than what was (including our own modern experiences with modern made guns) is close to re-writing history.

When looking at trade lists one also must remember that these were only the items used for trade, they mostly do not include the items taken west to supply the company men, either the engages or the skin hunters - aka one of the two types of "free trappers" who contracted with a certain company for supplies - i.e got a grub stake which would be paid back first.
While the trade lists are a valuable resource, they are just one part of the overall picture. For instance when you look at all of the published trade lists you in fact find very few rifles overall of any make, yet the companies bought them by the thousands, but not just for trade..

[flintlock62]

They did not water proof caps at the time

Sorry - not true. Water proof caps were made very early on - circa 1827 is the earliest date I have documented for them.

Flints could be found in any creek bed

Also not true - while one can at times find a usable rock it's not as easy as one supposes to find a rock that will spark well as well as one that will spark consistently. Secondly if flints were so widely available in the wild why were they being imported and sold in the thousands?
Also there are several primary docs that mention the fact that many of the flinters were not always of the best quality, there are other period citations for men being without flints and needing to be supplied, and in one year, 1827, Robert Campbell mentioned that ALL of the powder that year was of such poor quality that their guns would often not fire at all.
If one chooses to use the logic that it's better to carry a flinter than a caplock due to the ability to pick up a rock, than the same logic would apply to using guns at all - a bow and arrows can be made on the spot from available materials, where as a gun needs not only a flint or cap, but also powder (which could be of either poor quality or ruined from repeated immersions, etc.) and lead to work - lose any of the three and you've got a poorly designed club left.......

............

I just don’t see how we can make a statement that by the 1840 date percussion systems had became the prevalent ignition system .

It's not just the date that matters, but where as well. Records do show that in the more settled areas east of the Mississippi, that the percussion did become very prominent by the late 1820's/early 1830's, and even half-stocks of various types were being built in larger numbers here in the US by the mid-1830's.

I truly love my flinters and have for nigh onto fifty years, but making more of them than what was (including our own modern experiences with modern made guns) is close to re-writing history.

When looking at trade lists one also must remember that these were only the items used for trade, they mostly do not include the items taken west to supply the company men, either the engages or the skin hunters - aka one of the two types of "free trappers" who contracted with a certain company for supplies - i.e got a grub stake which would be paid back first.
While the trade lists are a valuable resource, they are just one part of the overall picture. For instance when you look at all of the published trade lists you in fact find very few rifles overall of any make, yet the companies bought them by the thousands, but not just for trade..

Maybe I should clarify that locally, I can find enough chert to drown an elephant.  Chert that will make great sparks, not just medircore ones.  My flinter is not of poor quality, and I said my choice would be the flinter TODAY, not back then.  

As far as bows and arrows go, if one does not know what one is doing, they are not much use either.  It is not just bending a green tree branch of any type wood and a vine for a string.  Improperly made, a bow is just a bent stick and totally worthless.

[Captchee]

yep alot of cheep crap . mostly in the form of trade rifles .
as to finding a rock that will spark . i tell ya  one must be pretty  had pressed not to find one .
 why import flints ? simple they last longer  becouse of better quality  of flint over chert .
 but churt will work very will in a pinch .
 what  will one use in a pinch for a cap ?

 past that  where are the  inventory lists for the brigades  supporting cap locks in numbers .
again remember its about specific areas . just because something may or may not be found in an eastern township . it doesnt mean that item was found on the frontier  or in the rocky mountain.
 The Hall rifle was produced in far greater numbers then the hawkens ever was . Yet where are those rifles .
  Same with half stocks . They were nothing new . Their found all over Europe, much , much earlier then here
 Trade lists are important because they list not only items for trade but needed items for re supply. Lets also remember that items of trade are items of want . So  it would stand to  point that  if caplocks were so quickly being taken over  then they would be an item of great want . Yet they seem to suspiciously  missing ,,, why ?

  As to the rest  there also is sound documentation of folks making their own powder . Boone did it , so did many of the other  frontier out posts .
As to lead . Sorry also  wrong .
  One can read the  notes of  Ashley and find where he made  projectiles out of  salvaged  items  after their  wreck in the Owyhee river  in Oregon ..
Asotin also I believe mentions the  use of improvised projectiles

 Myself I  started long , long ago with a cap rifle . Nothing wrong with them . But if I had to have only one rifle  here in the rockies .  A rifle that I  needed to be relied upon for a year or two  for self protection and  food supply . It would not be a cap lock .
 I find them far to troublesome  

 Where their capers here ? .sure  I have no doubt about that .  
 But I do not believe that they were in the numbers  suggested by many.
 The documentation is just to scarce  to support them with anything but an opinion  
As such one must document  numbers . Numbers that should show up not just on trade lists but in gun maker orders . Orders that  show a line of destination
 Without that .  Its all speculation

[Mustang]

I read somewhere, can’t remember where, that the Hawken family of gunsmiths never produced a flintlock version of the rifle we all know as the Hawken. Would that be a true statement? Do we know how many surviving Hawken rifles there are? I am sure there has to be some still undiscovered treasures out there.

[Mustang]

I would say that is a reasonable synopsis but are you saying that any one of us today would recognize one as a Hawken rifle?