T/C Hawkins accuracy

[Stevep51d]

 I have 3 T/C hawkens and a T/c Hawken Cleland match rifle that is 40 cal...Now I know that for good roundball accuracy a 1 in 66  twist is preferred, and I know that the Hawkens are 1-48 twist to work with both ball and Maxi balls...So my question is why would T/C make the Cleland match rifle in a 1/48 twist? I would have thought they would have gone slower.....Now it does use a very tight patch/ball setup and is very accurate so I would think you could use a similar ball/patch in other calibers with the Hawkens and expect the same accuracy??? Where do I error here..

[Ohio Joe]

I have 3 T/C hawkens and a T/c Hawken Cleland match rifle that is 40 cal...Now I know that for good roundball accuracy a 1 in 66  twist is preferred, and I know that the Hawkens are 1-48 twist to work with both ball and Maxi balls...So my question is why would T/C make the Cleland match rifle in a 1/48 twist? I would have thought they would have gone slower.....Now it does use a very tight patch/ball setup and is very accurate so I would think you could use a similar ball/patch in other calibers with the Hawkens and expect the same accuracy??? Where do I error here..

Steve, I can't answer that question, but I can add some potential insight for your 1 in 48 twist.

The .40 cal Green Mountain Barrel is 1 in 48 (I have one in 1" x 42" on my chunck gun) and it's accurate.  Also I have a custom Ed Rayl .40 cal barrel (7/8" x 36" with 1 in 72 twist, .012 depth round bottom rifling) and it's accurate as all get out with just about any charge you want to feed it.

Don Davis (a known X-Stick NMLRA competitor) is known to have used a 1 in 48 twist barrel off the sticks, and he was quite good with it.  It all comes down to working up the most accurate load for your rifle - no matter what the twist.

 

[Stevep51d]

 I need to get out and do just that..Right now I am in the Southwest on vacation and I have to renovate my rent house when I get home so it won't be this year at least.. I was just sitting in the hotel room pondering the why to it all...Thanks

[Buzzard]

Steve, caliber and velocity determine twist rate required. At any vel. smaller cals require faster rates of twist. Done right, for exp, a 32 would need 1 twist in 36-40", 40cal, about 1 in 45-48", etc. 50's and 54's have standard of 1 in 60. 58 - 62's should be around 1 in 72. FOR RB Accuracy!! Conicals need to spin faster because they are longer, (higher ballistic coefficent), and are moving slower. Your Cleland, 1 in 48" is correct for RB comp at normal vels. The hawken 50, for best accuracy with RB, should keep vels. under 1750fps, as the velocity/BC dictates. The larger the cal., the higher the BC. But just barely. My 54 Renegade is most accurate at 50grs-2fg, at 1200fps. Double that powder, and things go to h--- quickly.  RB's have a very low BC, therefore, do not need a fast twist rate. There for, we need to keep vels. in the moderate range with T-C, (one twist fixes all), barrels!!! On the other hand, when shooting conicals, we must push them as fast as necessary to achieve acceptable accuracy. 2 books on this matter have been wrightin by Sam Fadala. Ya might try to find them as he explains this better than I, plus he gives the numbers we need to understand this.

[Uncle Russ]

My friend Buzzard is 'spot-on', as usual, but there is a formula that has been around for years that will help you determine the "best" twist rate yourself.

That formula is known as the Greenhill Formula.
However, and this is a must, you MUST use a chronograph to determine velocity as loading tables, available from many different sources, only give you an approximate, a real close approximate perhaps, but each and every barrel is a wee bit different...."a science within itself" as the experts like to say.
And as such the velocity will vary just a bit, even in the same make, model, caliber, same manufacturer, same everything...it will still be a little different.

Many experts that have studied the Greenhill Formula in depth all agree that the 'constant' in the Greenhill Formula MUST be 130, as opposed to 150 and 180, as you will see in the link I will provide.
Also, the Specific Gravity for pure lead is 11.35
By substituting these two numbers in your calculations the formula will work for the lowly Patched Round Ball. (PRB)

(My good friend Hank from W. VA and I were discussing this very thing on his last visit out here.)

Here is the link, don't let the formula itself scare you off, with todays ultra modern calculators you can easily do this by simply following the instructions... if you're truly interested.
https://www.vcalc.com/wiki/AndrewBudd/Greenhill+Formula+for+Optimal+Rifling+Twist+Rate.

Uncle Russ...
   

[Stevep51d]

Thanks Guys,

I have a lot of studying to do now, Love it!

[Hawken]

I'm a 1-72 man myself....and I'd rather fight than switch!!

[Rocklock]

The modern 1/48 narrative came about when TC came out w their Hawken and other rifles.  Their barrels were button rifled and grooves were only about .004” deep. Many original barrels had 1/48 twists but were cut .010-.012” deep. The button rifling is done forcing a tungsten button through the barrel imprinting all 8 grooves in one pass vs cutting each groove with multiple passes and is therefore more cost effective. TC also offered the Maxi-Ball which gave a much greater contact between projectile and barrel and worked well in those barrels. I had great luck in the ‘70s w a .490 ball and .010 patch using 40-50 grains of FFg. Accuracy w 70-100 gr was dismal.

A 1/48 twist barrel w .010” deep rifling using a tight ball and patch combination does well with loads considered heavy for caliber.  My next barrel will be a .48 caliber w 1/48 twist .012” deep. The 48 twist in that barrel should provide good target accuracy w 40-50 gr of FFg.  My .54 built for hunting elk an maybe larger at upto 130 yards has a 1/70 twist .012” deep.

I see no use Discussing rate of twist without including depth of rifling and application.
TC

[Eric Krewson]

All barrels are different, I had a TC Renegade that would shoot a cloverleaf with any patched ball charge, I have also had TC guns that wouldn't group well with anything, all were bought new.

I had a sewer pipe TC barrel bored from .50 to .54 by Bobby Hoyt, 1 in 48,  .012 round bottom rifling that is amazingly accurate with a patched round ball. I used 75gr of 2F, a .530 ball and .015 ticking, it just about put them in the same hole at 50 yds so I didn't try anything else. It was a friend's gun so I handed it back to him with the right components, told him how to clean it properly and sent him on his way. He killed three deer with the rifle last year.

[Uncle Russ]

All barrels are different, I had a TC Renegade that would shoot a cloverleaf with any patched ball charge, I have also had TC guns that wouldn't group well with anything, all were bought new.

I had a sewer pipe TC barrel bored from .50 to .54 by Bobby Hoyt, 1 in 48,  .012 round bottom rifling that is amazingly accurate with a patched round ball. I used 75gr of 2F, a .530 ball and .015 ticking, it just about put them in the same hole at 50 yds so I didn't try anything else. It was a friend's gun so I handed it back to him with the right components, told him how to clean it properly and sent him on his way. He killed three deer with the rifle last year.

Eric, FWIW:  being a longtime fan of the lowly Renegade, mostly because of the overall design, but especially because of the butt stock design, I have experienced the exact same thing.

Don't get me wrong, I love the looks of the "Hawken or Plains Style" rifles, and I still have a few, and still shoot 'em every time I get a chance, it's just that I simply feel more comfortable behind the shotgun style stock of the Renegade, and the semi-look of a English Sporting Rifle is very pleasing to my eyes,  but that's just me.

Anyway, I've gone through a lot of barrels over the past 60 plus years of shooting Muzzleloaders, and,.....for no reason, that I was ever astute enough to see, some barrels shot very well, while others just didn't shoot as well, no matter what I tried.

I spent a lot of years "spinning my wheels" doing my best to make 'em shoot when it just wasn't there.
It would likely be more accurate to say that while most have shot "pretty good" by many standards, a few of the others were simply outstanding, while using the same cal., same load, same patch, same lube, same seating, same, same everything....like I've always said, I was spinning my wheels because I could not accept the simple fact that two exact looking barrels were still just a wee bit different somehow.

So, Just like you said, ALL barrels are different!
Even on consecutive serial numbered rifles, one barrel will truly shine, while the other not so much...go figure!
It is often said that every barrel ever made is a Science within itself.
The older I get, and the more experience I get with the lowly T/C, the more I believe in that statement.

Uncle Russ...

[Ohio Joe]

1 in 48, 1 in 56, 1 in 60, 1 in 66, 1 in 72 twist's...

.005, .007, .008, .010, .012, depth rifling...

Calibers - you pretty much name it...

What do they all have in common???

You still have to work up a load for it to find out what works best for you from the barrel(s) you have. IMHO, everything you read is merely guidelines to get you started off on the right foot, and if you do enough load testing you'll find out what - powder charge, patch thickness, lube, and ball diameter, works best for your smokepole.   

[doggoner]

A big AMEN to your words Ohio Joe. The only true "expert" on the load for a given gun is--------  THE GUN.

doggoner

[Winter Hawk]

in 1992 I bought a T-C Pennsylvania rifle, brandly new, and it was scary accurate.  1:66 rifling, .50 caliber flintlock and it shot better than I can.  250 gr. Lee R.E.A.L. bullets dropped in at 3" at 100 yards.  Then I foolishly traded it away.

Fast forward to 5 years ago when I had the chance to pick up another one.  The barrel is now with bobby Hoyt to see if he can do something to make it work better - 6" groups at 25 yards is the best I have been able to come up with, sometimes the groups open up to 12".  The rifle has a very low serial number and had the old style lock which I have replaced with a L&R.  It is certainly NOT the same as the first one I had.  As has been said before, each one is different!

~WH~

[Stevep51d]

I'm a 1-72 man myself....and I'd rather fight than switch!!

Man you are bringing back some memories to me with that statement, what was the cigarette brand that made the statement? Ok I looked it up! It was Tareyton from the sixties! Im not that old am I?

[Winter Hawk]

I'd rather fight than switch!!

It was Tareyton from the sixties! I'm not that old am I?

Nah, you can't be.  I remember those ads and I'm still a young pup.... although I'm older than Hanshi!   

~WH~