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Author Topic: Baker Rifle  (Read 13164 times)

Offline Uncle Russ

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« Reply #30 on: December 20, 2005, 01:52:57 PM »
I just got this from Puffer.....It is from his Gunsmith who is doing his "new" Baker Rifle......

[albumimg:3czbnqr8]171[/albumimg:3czbnqr8]
click to enlarge.

To me, it says this puppy will shoot!

It also begs the question of just what my man Puff can do with it.... :rotf

He will have to fill in the details of where they are on that rifle right now...it would appear to me he is going to get a pretty dog gone good shooter.....I will have to shoot that thing when I go up there, I think it is a good looking rifle to go along with the good shooting part, and that makes the honey all that much sweeter.  :lol:


Russ...
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Offline Puffer

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« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2005, 02:17:17 PM »
Quote from: "RussB"
I just got this from Puffer.....It is from his Gunsmith who is doing his "new" Baker Rifle......

[albumimg:1l15btms]171[/albumimg:1l15btms]
click to enlarge.

To me, it says this puppy will shoot!

It also begs the question of just what my man Puff can do with it.... :rotf

He will have to fill in the details of where they are on that rifle right now...it would appear to me he is going to get a pretty dog gone good shooter.....I will have to shoot that thing when I go up there, I think it is a good looking rifle to go along with the good shooting part, and that makes the honey all that much sweeter.  :?  BUT I've already got my excuse list made up. :lol:

As to the next step. - getting it back from WV (about 2 wks.) Then the lock work, browning the Bbl. & refinishing the stock.

You will be kept abreast of the progress, BECUASE there will be a lot of cries for HELP :Doh!

As to YOU shooting it, ONLY if you PROMISE not to kick my rear. (on 2nd thought, knowing you, you'd promise, then kick it anyway & then post it, for all the world to see  :Doh! )

your friend Puffer
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Offline Puffer

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« Reply #32 on: March 01, 2006, 11:26:04 AM »
Quote from: "Puffer"
Quote from: "RussB"
He will have to fill in the details of where they are on that rifle right now...it would appear to me he is going to get a pretty dog gone good shooter.....I will have to shoot that thing when I go up there, I think it is a good looking rifle to go along with the good shooting part, and that makes the honey all that much sweeter.  :Doh!  :Doh!


your friend Puffer

The work is progressing. I posted on "Gun Building"

Puffer
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Offline Uncle Russ

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« Reply #33 on: March 01, 2006, 11:51:22 AM »
Yep, I saw it. That's great news Puff!

Maybe we can get together after the Monroe Show, and shoot our targets for the TMA MPS.....That would be neat, I think.

Russ...
It's the many things we don't do that totally sets us apart.
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Offline Puffer

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« Reply #34 on: March 01, 2006, 07:25:08 PM »
Quote from: "RussB"
Yep, I saw it. That's great news Puff!

Maybe we can get together after the Monroe Show, and shoot our targets for the TMA MPS.....That would be neat, I think.

Russ...

Shooting with you would be GREAT & , BUT if you want to win the TMA MPS, We've got some GRMMers that shoot circles around me," when they get "serious" They let me win until I get "cocky" then they "eat my lunch"  :hairy By the way, one of the "nice things" about the Baker, it is .62 cal. BIG HOLES. :rotf

Your camp mate, Puffer
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Offline Uncle Russ

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« Reply #35 on: March 01, 2006, 07:47:42 PM »
Quote
But if you do not mind the "basement award' LETs DO IT.

Well, one thing about it....if we won that puppy. we would do it in style! :rotf

Russ...
It's the many things we don't do that totally sets us apart.
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Offline Puffer

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« Reply #36 on: March 01, 2006, 07:55:42 PM »
Quote from: "RussB"
Quote
But if you do not mind the "basement award' LETs DO IT.

Well, one thing about it....if we won that puppy. we would do it in style! :lol sign

Puffer
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Offline chuckpa

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Baker Rifle
« Reply #37 on: March 30, 2006, 09:01:57 PM »
Puffer
Thanks for getting me to the TMA site.
I would like to hear Sir Michael's and your comments regarding the British development of their rifle corps and the Baker rifle. Do you think that the British made these developments because of their experience with the American riflemen in the revolutionary war?
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Offline Puffer

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Re: Baker Rifle
« Reply #38 on: March 30, 2006, 09:23:26 PM »
Quote from: "chuckpa"
Puffer
Thanks for getting me to the TMA site.
I would like to hear Sir Michael's and your comments regarding the British development of their rifle corps and the Baker rifle. Do you think that the British made these developments because of their experience with the American riflemen in the revolutionary war?

Cuckpa, GLAD you made it. Go to the Introductions & introduce youself, so everyone can welcome you.

Yes they were influenced by the American riflemen, but They did not have too high of an opinion of them. Actually The Britsh had rifle units prior to 1800 (also in the Rev.war. )I will post some info in the "patriot & Loylist" section

As to The British Rifle Reg.s Sir Michael is the "expert" & I am sure, that when he sees your here, he will chime in.  :lol:  Also get the book we advised.

Did you find the "Baker pics" Also look in "Gun Building" for my "Indian Project"

Puffer
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Offline Sir Michael

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Re: Baker Rifle
« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2006, 10:20:50 PM »
Quote from: "chuckpa"
Puffer
Thanks for getting me to the TMA site.
I would like to hear Sir Michael's and your comments regarding the British development of their rifle corps and the Baker rifle. Do you think that the British made these developments because of their experience with the American riflemen in the revolutionary war?

Hi there chuckpa.  I'm not sure I'm the expert that Puffer makes me out to be but here is what I know.  Or at least what I think I know. :lol:

Starting in 1746 the British Ordnance Board began acquiring rifles.  They were issued in small quantities to select men throughout the army from time to time.  During the French and Indian War (7 Years War) at most one company from a regiment was equipped with rifles.  They tended to be issued for specific operations and then returned to stores for issue the next unit requiring them.  This type of use continued through the First American War (The Revolution).  The rifles used during this time were essentially German hunting rifles and most were made in Germany.

In 1776 the Board of Ordnance established the Pattern 1776 Infantry Rifle.  Something over a 1,000 of these were made and shipped to America.  They were used much the same way that earlier rifles had been used ( a few to each regiment depending on operational demands).  

Regimental Colonels were also purchasing on their own rifles for issue to their best regimental shots.

The Board of Ordnance also purchased some breach loading rifles designed by Patrick Ferguson but they saw little action and spent most of the war in a warehouse in NY.

After the First American War ended several units in the British Army experimented with rifles and/or equipped some of their best shots with rifles.  The British Army also Incorporated several German units into its structure and some of them were equipped with rifles.

In 1797 the 60th Regt raised a 5th Battalion of Germans equipped with German rifles.  It was the first all rifle battalion in the British Army.  It was trained to fight as light infantry along with several other Line Regiments even though they were equipped with Muskets.  The creation of light infantry and the use of rifles was sponsored by General Howe based on his experience in the First American War.

In 1799 the Duke of York established an Corps of Riflemen that was initially organized to train companies of riflemen which when trained were to be returned to their regiments.  In 1800, 14 Reg ts sent 30 men each along with officers to be trained as riflemen and equipped with Baker Rifles or more properly the Pattern 1800 Infantry Rifle, this was replaced by the Pattern 1805 and latter by the Pattern 1810.  Latter that year necessity forced six of the detachments to be deployed as a single unit.  Around this same time the decision was made to keep this Experimental Corps together rather then disperse it after training and it became The Rifle Corp.

In 1802 The Rifle Corps was brought into the line and designated the 95th Regt. Foote (The Rifles).  

After the 95th was equipped with Baker rifles the 5/60 Regt was also equipped with them.  

During the Napoleonic War the Light Battalions of the Kings German Legion were also equipped with Baker rifles.

During the Peninsula Campaign and after, the 95th, 52nd, and 43rd Reg ts were Brigaded as the Light Division.  Although the 52nd and 43rd were equipped with Muskets they were trained in the same manner as riflemen and fought the same way.

All of this is to say that the answer to your question is Yes, the experience in America in both the 7 Years War and the First American War were instrumental in the establishment of the British rifle units.  It was also instrumental in their being uniformed in green instead of red.

If you rally want to read more about all this and really get into it, here is a list of references to get you started.

British Military Flintlock Rifles 1740-1840 by De Witt Bailey, Ph.D.
Rifleman, Elite Soldiers of the Wars Against Napoloen by Philipp Elliot-Wright (Military Illustrated)
British Rifleman 1797-1815 by Philip Haythornthwaite (Osprey)
The Royal Green Jackets by Christopher Wilkinson-Latham (Osprey)
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Offline chuckpa

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« Reply #40 on: April 01, 2006, 07:49:10 PM »
Thank you gentlemen for the reply. I figured that there was a connection to the American experience.
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Offline chuckpa

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Baker Rifle
« Reply #41 on: May 14, 2006, 09:02:33 PM »
Sir Michael
I just got my copy back from a friend of Rifles six years with Wellington's legendary sharpshooters by Mark Urban. I really enjoyed this book. Does anybody have any comments on this book?
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Offline Sir Michael

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Re: Baker Rifle
« Reply #42 on: May 14, 2006, 09:49:47 PM »
Quote from: "chuckpa"
Sir Michael
I just got my copy back from a friend of Rifles six years with Wellington's legendary sharpshooters by Mark Urban. I really enjoyed this book. Does anybody have any comments on this book?
Chuck Beasley

I found it a good confirmation of the autobiography of Sir Harry Smith, and books by George Simmons, William Surtees, John Kincade, Benjamin Harris, and Edward Costello.  It seems to be well researched and it filled a number of holes.

I'm looking for a complete version of Captain Leach's book "Sketch of The Field Services of The Rifle Brigade"

I've also just acquired copies of "History and Campaigns of the Rifle Brigade 1800-1813 Volume I & II" by Wiloughby Verner and "The History of the Rigle Brigade (The Prince Consort's Own) formerly the 95th" by sir William H. Cope, BART.  Both were compiled during the late 19th Century.
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Online Bigsmoke

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« Reply #43 on: May 15, 2006, 01:15:01 AM »
Forsythe Rifling:

Exactly, narrow lands, wide shallow grooves, for example:

.62 - .72 caliber would ideally want to be 8 grooves, 8 lands, the grooves about .006 - .007 deep.  The ratio of width of lands vs grooves would want to ideally be 4:1, that is the groove would want to be 4 times as wide as the land.  Depending on who is rifling hte barrel, they might not be able to get 4:1 so 3:1 works out OK.  Forsythe advocated two different rates of twist, 1:104 and 1:144.  Interestingly enough, if I recall this correctly,Forsythe advicated the 144 twist for medium range shooting and the 104 twist was for long range.  Or visa versa.  Drat, now I'm going to have to read the book over again just to find out what's what.  I'll get back to you in a few days on that.

In my 8 bore, I decided to deeped the grooves a bit to .008 - .009, and that has worked out pretty good.

Fun stuff.

Big Smoke
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Online Bigsmoke

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« Reply #44 on: May 16, 2006, 12:49:47 PM »
Well, dug out my Sporting Rifle book and looked through it, trying to find info on what Forsythe said about rifling.  Here goes,

First, Forsythe used a unit of measurement for powder charges called a drachm.  That is defined as:  Noun 1. drachm - a unit of apothecary weight equal to an eighth of an ounce or to 60 grains

So, on page 72 of my book, at the bottom of the page Forsythe makes up a little table of projectiles to use in a 9 pound rifle, WITHOUT EXCESSIVE RECOIL (emphasis mine)  Read on.

Description  Gauge     Twist   Charge   Point blank    Extreme range
Plain sphere       14     8'8"     3 1/2          70 yards       250 yards
Plain sphere       14    12' 0"     5              95 yards       200 yards

So, 14 gauge we would call .69 caliber, his first charge would be 210 grains and his 2nd charge would be 300 grains.  Interestingly enough, the lighter charge in the faster twist barrel would be for the further distance, while the larger charge in the slower twist barrel would be for the shorter range.

He is calling those charges that do not have excessive recoil in a 9 pound rifle.  He must have been a macho man!!!  Also interesting is that Forsythe's 9 pound rifle was a double, and it probably had a pistol grip stock, as he expressed approval of that design in one place in the book.

Big Smoke
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