Post by: mark davidson on February 25, 2009, 01:39:49 PM
Post by: Mitch on February 25, 2009, 01:43:56 PM
Post by: jbullard1 on February 25, 2009, 01:47:42 PM
Post by: No Deer on February 25, 2009, 02:14:21 PM
Post by: Fletcher on February 25, 2009, 04:47:15 PM
I have a 12 ga sxs ML and I love it. But I have no trouble hitting what I want with the short flinter .62 smoothie when loaded with about 1 1/8 oz of shot and about 75 gr FF. I use FFF for priming The load may stick up about half way up the barrel, but seems to perform alright
If I get rich I am going to get a good .62 Trade Gun - I think about 38" barrel. That will be a hoot both for Trade Gun Shoots and shotgunning as well.
Post by: Bigsmoke on February 25, 2009, 04:59:42 PM
Mark, I think you should utilize your modern shotgun experiences to determine what you will want with a muzzleloader. Do you like the 12 or the 20 best? Well, that's probably what is going to happen with the muzzleloader as well.
Frankly, I don't think there is a right answer. Big surprise, I would lean towards the 12 ga myself, but on the other hand, I sure do not discount the viability of the 20, either. As has been said, it is whatever feels better to you. And if you can get around a group of fellows who have some smooth bores before you lay out the $$$, so much the better.
Post by: nobber on February 25, 2009, 06:40:44 PM
Eric Davis
Post by: Gordon H.Kemp on February 25, 2009, 07:54:50 PM
Post by: sse on February 25, 2009, 08:54:59 PM
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What no talk of a 10 ga. this is blasphemy!!What no talk of 14 ga...? I'd sure like to get my mitts on a shootable antique in 14 ga...
Post by: vermontfreedom on February 25, 2009, 10:26:26 PM
how about an 8 bore..
seriously...i'd lean toward the 12
most post 1780 or 1790 smoothbores were closer to 20 even 28 gauge than 12, but if this is a hunting gun, i recommend using what will be most effective on your game
yes, you can customize the load in the 20, increasing pellet volume to match the 12 with 1 1/4 or even larger loads, but you might experience shot stringing.
stringing is the effect of longer/taller shot columns leaving 'trails'. imagine shooting at a piece of 4 x 8 plywood mounted on a moving car. a shot column that is short and wide will have more pellets hitting the board in one location whereas the same volume of shot in a taller column will tend to string out as it impacts the plywood. think of the extremes of a 2-ounce load in a .410 versus a 10 gauge. which shot column is taller - .410 and it will have a serious string. the difference is less great between 20 and 12 gauge, but still measurable
this is not so much an issue when shooting turkey because your target is or effectively is still, but if you're wingshooting, shot stringing can be important: the longer the shot column, the greater the shot string. a larger bore, all else equal, will have a wider shot column, so less stringing.
Post by: Roaddog on February 26, 2009, 06:30:38 AM
Post by: mark davidson on February 26, 2009, 09:59:18 AM
Post by: jbullard1 on February 26, 2009, 11:19:01 AM
I don't duck hunt but I do love turkey hunting
I don't think BraveHeart will ever shoot a 2 ounce load of shot like my Anderson built Winchester Super X II
The gun will handle it but Jerry can't :shake
Post by: mark davidson on February 26, 2009, 12:07:01 PM
(As for the neighbors, mine already think I'm crazy and I don't mess with wasp nests other than throwing gasoline on them while the wasps are present. :-) I have been known on occasion to use WD40 and a lighter as a torch for them. It works great but sometimes you gotta put the barn fire out immediately afterward. :-)
Post by: jbullard1 on February 26, 2009, 12:10:15 PM
Post by: Loyalist Dave on February 26, 2009, 12:26:23 PM
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I use my SXS Pedersoli for pheasants and chukars but my 20 works for rabbits and other bird types.
I use my 20 ga. Pedersoli caplock for all, and it is choked mod x Imp cylinder. I don't juice up my loads to try and dupe a 12 gauge. The last time I used it the limit on Pheasants was 6, and I limited-out. I have never limited out with any other gun. My load was 70 gr of 2Fg, and the same measure was used for #7.5 shot. Regardless of the gauge, if you overload with powder, you actually screw up the pattern, and a miss is a miss.
You can use bismuth and not tear up your black powder barrel. Steel shot, though is a "no no", and if you get a gun with screw in choke(s), be sure the choke is rated for steel shot if you go for waterfowl. Otherwise you will ruin the chokes and the muzzles. (personal experience)
Mark,
NEVER NEVER use regular plastic wads such as Remington or AA brands for BP. There are some wads out there that will take the temperatures, but regular reloading wads aren't them. They will melt in your barrel and cause all sorts of problems (again personal experience). I use paper cartridges, one for powder and the paper is rammmed down on the powder to form a wad, then followed with a newsprint cartidge of shot, which is gently seated on the powder/wad charge. It works well, and is a fast reload.
LD
Post by: mark davidson on February 26, 2009, 01:54:35 PM
Post by: mark davidson on February 26, 2009, 02:10:30 PM
Post by: tg on February 26, 2009, 02:32:45 PM
Post by: mark davidson on February 26, 2009, 02:44:31 PM
Post by: No Deer on February 26, 2009, 02:47:16 PM
Quote from: "mark davidson"
tg, I might launch a few big .72 balls just for the experience or "just in case" but that performance is way, way down my list.
He says now
Post by: mark davidson on February 26, 2009, 03:12:20 PM
Post by: Bigsmoke on February 26, 2009, 04:31:15 PM
Mark, the way I see this is you well might be responsible for putting some gun builders kids through Yale at this rate.
You just gotta love this sport. There is just no end to the surprises or the excitement.
See Wyosmith's posting under what was it? So you like recoil? He has some photos of a 2 bore he was working on that are just phenominal. So, yes, there is an end to this, somewhere. And it is pretty darn scarry. Once you get over a 4 bore, the fun really has stopped, and depending on the load, maybe there is no fun with a 4 bore either. But lots of horsepower!!!!
Post by: russ t frizzen on February 27, 2009, 12:43:01 AM
Post by: mark davidson on February 27, 2009, 09:44:14 AM
Russ T; I too have come to the "big is good" conclusion. Way too often I have begun too small. A big knife will do anything a little knife will do but a little knife will not do anything a big knife will do. Seems that a bigger bore gun will do anything a smaller one will do but again not the other way around.
For a fowler, if I discover that availability of components is not a real issue, then I might well build a 10 guage or even an 8!!! Years ago I killed ducks OK with 2 3/4" shells but the big 3 1/2" sticks I shoot now are the obvious authority. Seems to me that there is no reason to be undergunned no matter how well you do or can place the shot.
Bigsmoke, Actually I picked the .62 over the .72 for a rifled PRB deer rifle cause the ball weight of the .62 seemed an ideal balance between the lighter(maybe too light) .54 I already have and the sure enough heavy .72 which has almost got to have trajectory issues. 100 yard performance is important to me and I would like to have a really usable hunting tool on out to 125 or maybe 150 yards if need be. My eyes are still pretty good.
I guess my kids are doomed to community college. :-)
Post by: tg on February 27, 2009, 10:58:03 AM
The force of the smoothbore is strong Luke
As long as he enjoys his journey and has lots of room to store guns he will do fine, starting with a well fitted 12 bore for shot only usage would be a nice way to go and fuel the fire that smolders within..
Post by: mark davidson on February 27, 2009, 11:39:57 AM
Post by: Kermit on February 27, 2009, 11:55:48 AM
As to "punishment," remember that a 10 in BP is a lot kinder than one of them modern 10 3-1/2" mag things. I've shot 8 bores that were gentler to my body than 12 mags.
Post by: mark davidson on February 27, 2009, 12:10:20 PM
Punishment..Thanks for your observation. That has got me to thinking hard. Recoil with black powder guns in general seems much kinder to me than even supposedly hard kickers in centerfire. I would like to shoot a hopped up 10 guage or 8 and see how it feels.
Is there any real drawback or handicap or detriment to having a 10 or even an 8 other than perceived recoil from standard full power loads? Seriously, guys why are 12 and 20 such the standard pair? Any real advice on why NOT to go with 10 guage or maybe even 8 as a primary bp hunting shotgun???
Post by: No Deer on February 27, 2009, 12:54:59 PM
Post by: rollingb on February 27, 2009, 02:00:13 PM
Quote from: "mark davidson"
Bigsmoke, :-) I see your point. Let's remember, I'm a regular ole broke Mississippi school teacher so I am going to have to pace myself at this gunbuilding and buying thing. ha ha..... I do have the black powder addiction now though and it is pretty cool. I did look at those really big bore pieces and they are beautiful but even I am not that much of a glutton for punishment. Don't get me wrong, if I had a chance to shoot one of those shoulder cannons I would just absolutely have to try it just one time maybe. :-) If the .62 starts to look anemic then I likely need to seek counseling!!! :-)
Russ T; I too have come to the "big is good" conclusion. Way too often I have begun too small. A big knife will do anything a little knife will do but a little knife will not do anything a big knife will do. Seems that a bigger bore gun will do anything a smaller one will do but again not the other way around.
For a fowler, if I discover that availability of components is not a real issue, then I might well build a 10 guage or even an 8!!! Years ago I killed ducks OK with 2 3/4" shells but the big 3 1/2" sticks I shoot now are the obvious authority. Seems to me that there is no reason to be undergunned no matter how well you do or can place the shot.
Bigsmoke, Actually I picked the .62 over the .72 for a rifled PRB deer rifle cause the ball weight of the .62 seemed an ideal balance between the lighter(maybe too light) .54 I already have and the sure enough heavy .72 which has almost got to have trajectory issues. 100 yard performance is important to me and I would like to have a really usable hunting tool on out to 125 or maybe 150 yards if need be. My eyes are still pretty good.
I guess my kids are doomed to community college. :-)
Uuummm,.... well, I won't argue that when it comes to hunting.
However,.... "hunting" is only one aspect of this sport of traditional muzzleloading. Historical "re-enacting" is another important aspect that some of us find interesting.
For instance, if you do any research at all, you'll notice there's not much mention of large caliburs during the western fur trade era (and "this was the land of buffalo, grizzlies, and hostiles").
I've also noticed a lack of mention in the trappers journals, of deliberately hunting ducks and geese to any extent for their survival. I've seen mention of shooting turkeys out of trees, but that can (and was) done with the "small/medium bore" rifleguns of the day.
Also,.... lead was a very valuable commodity, and was "re-used" whenever possible. Those trappers would have had to've used a wheel-barrow to haul any "quanity" of lead around in the mountains, if they'ed been casting balls of 4-6-8-10 or even 12 bore size, for their daily survival. :laffing)
Post by: mark davidson on February 27, 2009, 02:46:25 PM
Post by: rollingb on February 27, 2009, 03:41:00 PM
Quote from: "mark davidson"
Rollingb, Good information. I see your point. While I find the history side of all this interesting, it is not a guiding factor in my enjoyment beyond the base level. I like the connection to history in the fact that I am carrying a "like" or "similar" weapon hunting as our forefathers did. Beyond that my main criteria is simply that my arm be effective in the criteria that I set for it. For me, the bigger more authoritative bores make more sense. I will have to check my state law to see if there is a maximum bore restriction. As usual I had not thought about that. Actually 10 or 12 guage either one would make the most sense for my simple hunting enjoyment. Yes, 4 bore for deer would indeed be overkill; it could still be FUN! :-)
I'm sure it's only a matter of "time" before such things will become important to you, my friend. :rt th
Post by: tg on March 01, 2009, 08:15:28 AM
How true, I can recall when I had litle interest in how close my guns were when compared to the originals, sometimes it is a slow painless development for some towards the historical aspect of the sport, but for others it hits hard and fast like sharp kick in the family jewels both are survivable, and much easier to stay the course with the internet and its vast resources and large numbers of folks willing to help with making correct choices.
Post by: mark davidson on March 02, 2009, 12:33:25 PM
Post by: Loyalist Dave on March 02, 2009, 04:44:20 PM
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Just what is a "paper cartrige". I think I know but if you can describe it for someone new, please do so. Is a paper powder cartrige just your powder charge somehow wrapped in paper and dropped down the bore? I assume the end must be torn off or something to allow the fire to get to it?? Is a paper shot cartrige just your pellets wrapped in paper and dropped down as a unit on top of the powder?
A paper cartridge is a paper tube, closed at one end, that holds a premeasured powder charge, and the open end is folded over. For reenactments they are used as blanks. (In a musket for real combat, it would also hold a solid ball.) You tear open the folded end, pour in the powder, and then ram the paper down on top of the powder to form a wad. I use a decent quality book paper for the powder cartridge.
Shot cartridges I make out of newspaper, and they are the same as the powder cartridges, but only hold a premeasured amount of shot. I don't tear these open, but you could. I make mine so that when finished they just fit inside the bore, so I can ram them down whole. This holds the whole load in place like an over-shot card or wad. The weaker newsprint will rupture as the shot accelerates toward the muzzle, and if you have chokes the chokes will adjust the pattern.
Here is the step by step method, but they are only making blanks and the paper is not rammed down to form a wad.
http://www.najecki.com/40thfoot/Cartridge1.html
http://www.najecki.com/40thfoot/Cartridge2.html
LD