Traditional Muzzleloading Association
Traditional Firearms => Caplock Long Guns => Topic started by: Hylander on November 07, 2017, 07:54:16 PM
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Hi, new here.
I have decide to get a Lyman GPR in 50Cal. Percussion.
Most vendors are out of stock, anyone have a line on one in stock for a decent price.
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Gunbroker.com has some.
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Gunbroker.com has some.
Just used or kits.
I did just find them at Midsouth.
Good Price?, good customer sevice?
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/000156031102/great-plains-half0-caliber-percussion-right-hand-rifle-complete-gun (https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/000156031102/great-plains-half0-caliber-percussion-right-hand-rifle-complete-gun)
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It's an auction site, there are new, used, kits etc. try a search. Midsouth has great prices and customer service from what I hear.
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Yep, been checking GB for a few weeks, so far just used.
Been a customer of Midsouth for years but never ordered anything big or expensive.
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It's an auction site, there are new, used, kits etc. try a search. Midsouth has great prices and customer service from what I hear.
I've only had a few dealings with Midsouth, and I've got no complaints. That $460.00 kit is not a bad price, and it's an enjoyable project IMHO. :bl th up
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It's an auction site, there are new, used, kits etc. try a search. Midsouth has great prices and customer service from what I hear.
I've only had a few dealings with Midsouth, and I've got no complaints. That $460.00 kit is not a bad price, and it's an enjoyable project IMHO. :bl th up
I agree, the kits are great, I have am waiting on another backordered 54 flinter now. :bl th up
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The Lyman GPR is an excellent choice, and Midway is a topnotch vendor.
Update:
I thought you had said Midway; while they are great, Midsouth is also a fine vendor and their prices seem a little lower than Midway, on this item.
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to put things in perspective ...
lyman trad ml's are rebranded with their name, the actual gun is made by investarms, italy. imho, they are the best of ALL the offshore guns out there today.
lyman trad ml "kits" are actually "screwdriver kits" 'cause that's all it takes to put them together. might take all of, oh, maybe ten minutes and the gun is ready to load and fire. seriously.
while that lyman gun is screwed together and ready to shoot, it could still use some work, and this is where the serious elbow grease can kick in, or not kick in - all depends on the level of finish one requires. i'll say it again - once screwed together, it IS a gun that's ready to load and shoot, and kill critters as well as any store-bought, fully-finished, ready-to-shoot gun.
at the very least, one could take some coarse sandpaper, say 80 to 100 grit, and go over the wood (mostly the butt stock) to smooth it all out. then some 220 or so grit to clean up any of the rough sandpaper scratches. this could take about 10 to 15 minutes. now go get a 3oz bottle of tru-oil and apply a coat. when it cures overnight, buff out the finished wood with some 0000 steel wool, or just a paper towel. now give it another coat and let cure. done. go load and shoot. the gun will last a lifetime if ya clean it well.
to take finishing to a much higher (but unnecessary) level, and take lots of time (like up to a few days), rasp all the proud wood down even with the furniture. this also means contouring the stock's wrist area where there's a "bulb" of extra wood - smooth it all down and get the wood to flow nicely. this doesn't take a master cabinet maker's skills, just let the rasp do the work, eyeball it, and when it looks good to you then it is good. yeah, this will scratch and mar the metal, no big deal. now go over all the wood with 100 grit, 220 grit and 400 grit sandpaper - yes, the furniture will get some sanding, too, in the process. now buff out the metal scratches with 0000 steel wool. the lyman/investarms stock wood is walnut and to stain it or not is purely for aesthetic reasons. i've stained some of these guns dark, some light, but most are just fine without staining and just applying some type of protective finish. there are a number of oil finishes i like using, but the easiest, fastest, surest gun stock finish is still good ol' tru-oil, wiped on with a piece of 100% cotton t-shirt material.
there ya go! look what ya done! ya put together yer own rifle! you did it, it's yours and ready to serve ya well! congrats! :applaud
now learn how best to feed and care for it! :bl th up :bl th up
:*: :wave
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What Rob said! :bl th up Btw, I bought a .50cal. percussion GPR barely used, but customized, from Track of the Wolf several years ago and am extremely pleased with its reliability and accuracy. i.e., once I found the ball diameter & patch thickness it likes. In my gun at least, the latter two factors were much more important than the powder charge and/or granulation.
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... I bought a .50cal. percussion GPR barely used, but customized, from Track of the Wolf several years ago and am extremely pleased with its reliability and accuracy. i.e., once I found the ball diameter & patch thickness it likes. In my gun at least, the latter two factors were much more important than the powder charge and/or granulation.
what maven said! :bl th up :bl th up
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Well I was about to order from Midsouth, had one in my cart.
Now it says "out of stock"
Putting in a request to see if my store buyer can get one.
Also I think Lyman just got a batch in, just waiting for them to through quality control.
Will call them again tomorrow.
Already started bought some powder and #11 Mag caps.
Will go to Wally World and get some Pillow Ticking.
Already have some Lube made up.
Nothing putting the cart before the horse :laughing
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Looks like TOTW has GPR's in .50 and .54 cal. in stock.
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A guy on GunsAmerica has some:
https://www.gunsamerica.com/Search.htm?Keyword=<id-all=1&cid=801&lid=146370&ns=0&numberperpage=50&
Not a bad price. Scroll down to find the GPR kit. All new in botx.
~Kees~
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Graf & Sons has the .50 and .54 kits for $454. I recommend the .54
.50 https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/10259
.54 https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/10260
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I have found a few places stating in the kits that the barrels are blued ?
And some they are not, but none will send me a pic of the actual list.
Also found a few places with the rifles in stock for a good price, just don't know if they are a good place to order from.
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never seen a lyman kit gun with a blued barrel - they'e all in-the-white - i wouldn't want it blued or plumbed or brown or grayed, white is right.
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Graf & Sons has the .50 and .54 kits for $454. I recommend the .54
.50 https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/10259
.54 https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/10260
Graf & Sons has always had a good reputation. Their kits seem priced right and their shipping didn't look bad at all.
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What do you all think of this one?
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/713432849 (http://www.gunbroker.com/item/713432849)
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Looks good! In fact, it looks a whole lot better than the last one I bought. Just don't let yourself get sucked into paying more than your would for a new one at Graf's or one of the other places. Auctions can get that way - folks want "that" item and bid way more than it is worth. But I say go for it!
~Kees~
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What do you all think of this one?
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/713432849 (http://www.gunbroker.com/item/713432849)
with a used gun bid that starts at $400, i don't think so.
unless you know the seller and the gun, buying new makes more sense to me, and get a full warranty.
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OK.
I found them in stock at Hinterland Outfitters online.
Researched reviews and they seem pretty darn good and A+ BBB rated.
$522.98 delivered
Think I might just pull the trigger tomorrow.
https://www.hinterlandoutfitters.com/lyman-great-plains-muzzleloader-rifle-6031102-black-powder-hardwood-blue-lock-p-16812.html (https://www.hinterlandoutfitters.com/lyman-great-plains-muzzleloader-rifle-6031102-black-powder-hardwood-blue-lock-p-16812.html)
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good price. the copy talks about the GPR but the pic shows the GPH - make SURE it's the GPR and not the GPH.
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good price. the copy talks about the GPR but the pic shows the GPH - make SURE it's the GPR and not the GPH.
Should be as the MFG is correct #6031102
Well,
For better or for worse, I just placed the order with Hinterland Outfitters.
I called first and verified it was in stock, then placed order online.
Fingers crossed.
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OK, that was fast.
It has already shipped, UPS.
Scheduled delivery is Friday.
Weird thing though, company's address is Huston Texas and it shipped from Louisiana :o
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Received my new GPR yesterday ;D
Awesome fast shipping from Hinterland Outfitters, also best price I could find.
The bore, this is nicest smoothest bore I have ever seen in any rifle at any price, not a single machining mark.
Bluing is deep, dark and even.
Overall I am very well pleased. Very well done for a $500 factory rifle.
Of course the proof will be how it shoots.
Range Report to follow next week ;)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4565/26735022799_16c3a6eee7_b.jpg)
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Received my new GPR yesterday ;D
Awesome fast shipping from Hinterland Outfitters, also best price I could find.
The bore, this is nicest smoothest bore I have ever seen in any rifle at any price, not a single machining mark.
Bluing is deep, dark and even.
Overall I am very well pleased. Very well done for a $500 factory rifle.
Of course the proof will be how it shoots.
Range Report to follow next week ;)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4565/26735022799_16c3a6eee7_b.jpg)
NICE!
:hairy
Uncle Russ...
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Very pretty wood coloring too! You’ll get a lot of use and good fun with it!
My flint 54 wood is too dark, dark brown to the point of almost appearing black. But I bought it as it is a left-handed, flintlock one in 54-cal and those aren’t available anymore.
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congrats on a fine lookin smokepole!
ya prolly don't have the tooling or wanna do what i do with every new investarms gun - pull the breech plug and lather the threads with anti-seize lube, dittos for the bolster/snail. that'll insure easy removal later on, by inhibiting the migration of bp residue that gets into everything sooner than later. but no big deal. at the very least, you WILL wanna clean out the proofing residue in the anti chamber. i don't think the bolster is on for proofing, that should be reasonably clean, but wouldn't hurt to clean that as well. this is what's in yer breech and ante-chamber (aka "patent breech") before yer first shot ...
(https://i.imgur.com/9USnbim.jpg)
the investarms ante-chamber is smaller than the bore ...
(https://i.imgur.com/9sfZYSM.jpg)
a .32 caliber (or so) nylon or bronze brush with some moose milk (or whatever) and a thin patch will clean out the patent breech, then a .50 jag and patch for the bore. yer good to go. a bit of gun oil on patches for the brush and jag will preserve the barrel metal. before shooting, i run a dry patch or two to clear out most of the oil.
another mod i make is to take the investarms ram rod and grind down the bell that's on the ball ramming end - grind it flush to the rod. this allows the ramming end to fit into the stock. then you can screw in the jag to the other end. both are ready to do their jobs, and the ram rod will not have to be flipped around every time you load a patched ball - it'll be all up and down, rather than up-flip-down.
also, both of the brass ferrules will be far more reliable if you drill a 1/16" hole into each, drive in a nail (brass or soft iron/steel), nip it close, then peen and file the brad ends flush to the ferrules. there, now they ain't pulling out and ruining yer range or hunt trip. it's good to make up an extra ramrod, too. 3/8" oak dowel works well, despite what some folks say. get the ferrules online.
enjoy!
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Nice looking rifle, Hylander! :hairy
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Thanks guys,
Rob: How tight is the breech plug, how hard to pull it apart ?
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investarms breech plugs are the easiest of all the offshore trad ml's to work on, but they will require 4 things. a 15/16" breech socket (ebay for about $30 - it has a proper cut out to clear the bolster on a cap gun), a large long wrench to grab the socket (i use an 18" reed corp, but most any long and large pipe wrench will do - goodly leverage is needed), a padded vise that's securely mounted in order to hold the barrel *tight*, some anti-seize lube for the threads when putting the breech plug (or bolster or nipple or touch hole liner) back into the barrel (permatex at any auto store). before removing the breech plug a witness mark line is drawn on the bottom of the barrel, that scribes over the plug and barrel. these are reference marks to properly align the plug and barrel when it all goes back together after cleaning and greasing.
(https://i.imgur.com/B9dkCr2.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/hYoCYij.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/RSuxrw0.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/b9f3uSk.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ObbUm60.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/8k8qVHu.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/CsBIVQr.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/44vtTIy.jpg)
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Thank Rob.
Looks like you have a nice vice clamp for the barrel, are those available for sale somewhere ?
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that's a rice barrel company magnetic octagonal vise clamp set ... $40 worth every penny! also add in the $30 rice plug wrench for traditional non-patent breech plugs.
http://www.ricebarrels.com/products.html
the 18" reed corp flat jawed wrench is $70 ... also worth every penny!
http://www.millsupplies.com/Reed-RCORP-4-12-Smooth-Jaw-Wrench_p_53333.html
all that hardware is worth the pennies for me because i remove breech plugs and other such items quite often, and definitely not just my own. 8)
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Rob:
Do you have a link for the 15/16" breech socket.
I can not seem to find one.
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can't find any listed on ebay other than the 13/16" plug wrench (might wanna contact that seller and see if he has a 15/16") ... https://www.ebay.com/itm/Breech-Plug-Removal-Wrench-13-16-Thompson-Center-Seneca-Cherokee-Custom-Made-/282331965477?hash=item41bc4be825
not sure about this one, it might be a 15/16" - https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-THOMPSON-CENTER-BREECH-PLUG-WRENCH-FOR-1-INCH-BARRELS-/401449339177?hash=item5d783ec929
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can't find any listed on ebay other than the 13/16" plug wrench (might wanna contact that seller and see if he has a 15/16") ... https://www.ebay.com/itm/Breech-Plug-Removal-Wrench-13-16-Thompson-Center-Seneca-Cherokee-Custom-Made-/282331965477?hash=item41bc4be825
not sure about this one, it might be a 15/16" - https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-THOMPSON-CENTER-BREECH-PLUG-WRENCH-FOR-1-INCH-BARRELS-/401449339177?hash=item5d783ec929
Thanks,
emailed seller, no response.
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Those GPR rifles are fairly dependable guns. Keep the patent breach cleaned (I use a 38 caliber pistol brush) and they fire every time. It seams all the 50 calibers I know like an 80 grain charge of 3-F. Mine shoots tight groups with a 495 ball and a tight patch. The deer hate it.
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This short dissertation is under the heading of FWIW..... :bow
I have only owned 3 GPR's over my lifetime of shooting, with the last one being a flintlock "kit", that I put together, maybe 12 / 15 years ago, many of the old-timers here will remember my raving about that particular rifle, and the new unexpected accuracy I was getting at 75 yds..
The GPR, IMHO, was at the time the "most often seen" new rifle on the Ranges that I shot on, and all for good reason.
Back in the day, sometime before Import / Export increases, Yankee Dollar re-evaluation, Trade agreements, and 9/11, had all happened, this Lyman Import represented a pretty good investment for a "one of the better shooting, Hawken looking, rifles" on the market at at right around $200 it was a good deal.....and, with all the changes of times in between now and then, it may very well still be, even at today's sometimes flat-out ridiculous prices.
About the 2nd GPR I ever owned, I got the opportunity to take a close look at the inside of the barrel through a friend who owned a nice bore-scope at the time.
What I saw inside that barrel was not at all what I had expected.
Instead of the nice smooth, shinny, lands and grooves I had expected to see, it looked more like a strip of land that had been fresh plowed, then cleaned-up with a disk and harrow before planting.....not at all what I had expected, and compared, to a early model T/C barrel.
But that "look" did not appear to have any effect at all on the accuracy of those rifles, not back then, and not even now.
Fast forward until today and we find ourselves with more "custom" Rifles, and stand alone barrels, available to many in the market.
Many of those barrels are polished, shine like new money, and are often praised as state-of-the-art barrel making.
Not that many years back I came into possession of my own bore-scope and I have closely examined many rifle barrels since that time.
I've not only looked at the dozen or so rifles I personally own, but that of friends, neighbors, and those just curious.
I have come to the conclusion that the "remarkable" accuracy that the GPR quickly became noted for, was due, in most cases, to its Twist Rate, and had little to nothing to do with how nice that barrel looked inside, rather how well it performed.
Back in the early days of T/C, back when a lot of their rifle parts was sub-contracted out to then up and coming new, and sometimes unheard of manufacturers, they too released quite a few barrels with a Twist Rate other than 1:48.
A few of those older barrels are still around, and they are now demanding much more than than the original cost of the entire rifle when new, often up to 4 or 5 times more!
Is that because they are "Pre-Warning, Pre-Model, but bear the T/C Stamp"? Or is it due to someone's rifling other than T/C?
Many of those barrels were marked with that Manufacturers "stamp" in some unobtrusive place on the barrel, and that's when all the problems started.
The new bean counters at T/C decided that practice was "counter productive" and betrayed the brand.....completely disregarding the new sales figures and upswing in popularity, those sub-contractors were discouraged from adding their "mark or small stamp" to those barrels, and the practice of producing a 1:48 ROT went unabated for years.....accuracy of those 1:48 barrels was, of course, good.
But when it came to the lowly round ball and patch, at many different distances they could barely keep up, still yet they excelled in the "longer than diameter" projectiles that was quickly becoming popular.
The T/C story I just related is not "documented".
Supposedly a fire, sometime in the mid 1990's, destroyed all or most historical records regarding the T/C Muzzleloader.
This story has come to me, over many years, from old-timers that actually worked for T/C for a lot of years.
Up until the time of Corporate Resettlement / Redistribution, when those employees lost not only their jobs, but their investment in the company too.
Is this just a story of disgruntled employees, feeling they got the short end of the stick?
If that were true, then employees of Rice, Green River of Utah, Green Mountain, Douglas, and other employees of "then new and upcoming barrel makers" who had once worked as T/C sub-contractors, would know nothing of their story....but that's just not the case.
Why is all this important?
-Many folks are interested in such things because they own one, or both of these rifles, and both represent a hallmark in affordable rifles for our own hobby of Traditional Muzzleloading.
-T/C is credited with being the one manufacturer that created the entire Muzzleloading craze that took place shortly before the Bicentennial in the 1970's. They did that with dependable, well made Muzzleloaders, that looked a lot like the fabled Hawken Rifle.
Uncle Russ...
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excellent info, uncle russ :bl th up
none of the offshore rifles will have lapped and honed barrels, all will be in-the-rough to, so to speak, to varying degrees. as russ alluded to, the more important key to a good barrel is the twist rate as compared to the bore, and the depth and type of rifling. as barrels are loaded and shot, the bullets and patches are doing the lapping. some folks run a jag with steel wool to start the lapping process. almost all offhsore guns are using the standard square bottom .008" rifling. patch 'n' ball guns will have a 1:60 twist and rifles for conicals will have much faster 1:32 twist - these are both in the GPR or GPH lyman series, guns with 32" barrels. the lyman trade rifle exhibits the compromise 1:48 twist that allows both balls and maxi bullets or lee REALs.
the last GPR kit i bought was this past year, a .50 flinter, with a 1:60 twist for patched balls. i didn't even build the kit let alone shoot it, and sent the barrel to bobby hoyt. he reamed it out to a .54 and we collaborated on the the twist and rifling - it now sports a 1:56 slightly faster twist (due to the short 32" barrel length) and with a .012 deep radius bottom set of grooves. the radius bottom helps with loading and fouiing control. it took a few months for bobby to get to my project and complete the barrel, and then for me to finish it up, so it didn't become a shooting gun 'til late december. well worth the added $150 barrel charge (bobby's reamed other barrels for me). it'll get baptized this spring. can't wait for the winter to depart! :wave
(https://i.imgur.com/jxvYkVO.jpg)