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Author Topic: CVA Varmint .32  (Read 2602 times)

Offline Swamppanther

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CVA Varmint .32
« on: December 01, 2017, 05:13:03 PM »
I am getting a "new" (well it looks that way) toy for Christmas. Its a CVA .32 Varmint cap lock. I am trying to get some info on this gun.
CVA took over by BPI Outdoors and they don't have any info on it. I guess I will go by the load info I have on my Traditions Crockett .32
squirrel gun. 15 gr. Pyrodex P (was using fff Goex but I think I will save the can I have left for my Lyman GP .50 flint)  and .310 Round Ball
.015 pillow ticking - dry patch. Anyone have manual/rate of twist/info on this gun? Any place to get parts?   
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Offline Winter Hawk

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Re: CVA Varmint .32
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2017, 11:24:11 AM »
From a post on Classic Gun Auction website: "This is a CVA .32 Varmint Hunter caplock rifle. It has a 24 in. 1 in 56" twist barrel that looks unfired."

.32 is what it is.  What works in the Crockett should be a good starting point in the CVA.  With 15 grains of powder, I doubt that you will be blowing it up!  Each rifle is a law unto itself though, so you need to develop the optimum load yourself.

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Offline Fyrstyk

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Re: CVA Varmint .32
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2017, 03:52:11 PM »
I have a sililar gun, but mine is called the Grey Squirrel.  It is a .32 with a 25" barrel with a 1:56 twist.  This gun just loves 20 grains of 3f goex, a 310 ball and a .015 patch for 1/2" groups at 25 Yards.  Light and easy to handle,

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Re: CVA Varmint .32
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2017, 05:53:34 PM »
I am getting a "new" (well it looks that way) toy for Christmas. Its a CVA .32 Varmint cap lock. I am trying to get some info on this gun.
CVA took over by BPI Outdoors and they don't have any info on it. I guess I will go by the load info I have on my Traditions Crockett .32
squirrel gun. 15 gr. Pyrodex P (was using fff Goex but I think I will save the can I have left for my Lyman GP .50 flint)  and .310 Round Ball
.015 pillow ticking - dry patch. Anyone have manual/rate of twist/info on this gun? Any place to get parts?
Swamppanther, Congratulations on this newly 'expected' riflegun.

FWIW: The one thing that I can say with certainty about the .32 is the fact that it will pull at your heart strings.
Really! The lowly "three-two" is IMHO one of the most overlooked performers in all of Muzzleloading.
Yes, it is a little bitty ball, and yes it looks rather diminutive when compared to a .50 or .54, but don't let that fool ya...that little puppy barks with complete authority.

There was a time, many years ago, when collective wisdom indicated that you load the little three-two until it "cracked", meaning; until it sounded more like a modern rifle than that of a normal muzzleloader.
I WOULD NEVER RECOMMEND THIS!

However, back in the early 1970's, that was a common practice throughout the Southwest.
And it was through these wild, and often ungodly experiments, that I learn to respect the little three-two.
I have owned three of the little three-two's in my life time, and I learned to love every one of 'em. They are just that neat.
They are NOT a child's gun, or a toy, but they are a rifle for the very discriminating hunter who is after small game.
They are accurate! Unbelievably accurate.
 
At least, everyone I have ever seen was not only deadly accurate, but often much more accurate than the fella behind the trigger.

As has already been said, start low with the powder charge and work your way up in small increments. Quite often it's said to increase your load in 5gr increments, but I would recommend, you using 2.5gr increments if you have a adjustable measure...if you don't, put that high on your "gotta-have list"...it's essential, in order to get the very best accuracy from this little guy.
Quite often these measurers are based on 5 gr, adjustments...if so, scratch 1/2 measurements,  on the barrel of the measurer, between the 5 and the 10, or between the 25 and the 30...in fact, through all the numbers scratch a half-way mark, you'll be glad you did in the long run.

Enjoy your little .32, it is truly the Prince of muzzleloaders, and one of the many reasons our God created Squirrels, and Rabbits.....

Jus'sayin

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Offline Winter Hawk

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Re: CVA Varmint .32
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2017, 04:08:53 PM »
There was a time, many years ago, when collective wisdom indicated that you load the little three-two until it "cracked", meaning until it sounded more like a modern rifle that a muzzleloader.  I WOULD NEVER RECOMMEND THIS!

That was not only for the little .32; I read it somewhere (maybe the Dixie catalog) many years ago as the way to find the optimum load for a rifle, and it has resurfaced fairly often on the Web.  The theory is that the change in pitch means you are breaking the sound barrier.  This brings with it the added turbulence of supersonic flight, reducing the accuracy of the shot.  I agree totally with our favorite Uncle that this is NOT the way to find your best load.

~Kees~
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Re: CVA Varmint .32
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2017, 07:28:09 PM »
There was a time, many years ago, when collective wisdom indicated that you load the little three-two until it "cracked", meaning until it sounded more like a modern rifle that a muzzleloader.  I WOULD NEVER RECOMMEND THIS!

That was not only for the little .32; I read it somewhere (maybe the Dixie catalog) many years ago as the way to find the optimum load for a rifle, and it has resurfaced fairly often on the Web.  The theory is that the change in pitch means you are breaking the sound barrier.  This brings with it the added turbulence of supersonic flight, reducing the accuracy of the shot.  I agree totally with our favorite Uncle that this is NOT the way to find your best load.

~Kees~

You're spot-on Kees!
It's common knowledge that every muzzleloader wants, and looks for, the very flattest trajectory possible, to beat that old adage of a muzzleloader being at best, a limited range rifle.
The faster the ball, the flatter the trajectory...and that's just fine, up to a point.
Especially, when we depend on the Kinetic Energy Formula os often used today.

However, once that ball enters into true supersonic speeds, strange things start to happen, which are due mostly to its shape....still yet, a rifle that was once a great 60 / 100yd gun, now has all same those forces x10 or more, working against it.

FWIW: (better pour yourself a cup of Jo, this may get long).......................
 
Knowledge of those forces were explored very early on, by folks like Cpt. John Norton, a British Officer stationed in India back around 1820 / 1830.
A well know Gunsmith / experimenter named William Greener in London England toyed with these same ideas during the 1830' & 1840's, and then, the now famous French Capt. Claude-Etiemme Minie, in 1849, introduced the world to the Minie-Ball, and this changed the face of War in every battle, in every country since.

The smoothbore had an effective range of 50 yards and an extended range of 200 yards (by volley). The rifled musket increased the lethality of ranged combat by providing an effective range of 300 yards, with an extended range of nearly a half-mile.
No longer could artillery crews set up 'just outside' musket range to deliver devastating grapeshot or canister fire, as they had done during the Napoleonic Wars, because the rifled musket could easily pick off those crews if they were within the 300 yard effective range of canister.
(Due to this fact, the development of conical-shaped cannon shells also began a revolution in artillery, as ammunition like the Parrott and James shells allowed for true rifling in cannon, giving the same guns longer range and with greater accuracy.)

Now, having said all that, it seems that a portion of the muzzleloading community has suddenly rediscovered ballistic coefficients, the importance placed on them has resulted in an idolatry of BC's far in excess of what they really mean in today's muzzleloading environment.

What is a Ballistic Coeffieient?
The Ballistic Coefficient of an object is a physics term, based around a formula that defines how an object will move and act while traveling through space and time.
The BC does not affect the gravitationl weak force, but rather the bullets ability to move through the resistnace caused by the compression of air around the object, and the flow of that air, first around, and then behind. This activity is usually referred to as External Ballistics. Wah?

It may be cute to denigrate a bullet or a ball as bad due to its flight "number," but it has comparatively little real world significance in the hunting field.

To begin with, we must first understand there is no "explosion" in the barrel, that sends the bullet or ball on the way, when we fire a gun...if that happened, we would destroy / melt the ball or projectile, possibly even destroy the gun with each firing....
The fact is, we have just converted a solid to a gas by means of heat, ie, flint, or cap ignition that starts the process.
The loud sound we hear when firing a gun comes from 2 sources:
A.) First is from the pressurized gases created in the chamber and escaping through the barrel.
B.) The sudden change in temperature and pressure is what creates the ‘gun blast’ we are all familiar with....there is no, none, zero, nada, "explosions" as we know the term, taking place.....albeit we often run into folks that believe just that.
Remember that when discussing such things around the camp fire.
A current day description of this process may well be described as .... "The Sound of Silence".

When thinking of increasing the "speed" of a roundball for the sake of velocity, remember this;
A.)The forces working against the ball, don't rise as rapidly for a very short distance, but then they take off again exponentially.
If you look at the force on a 0.50 caliber ball at 1400fps, the ball loses 3.88 fpe for each foot it travels - no wonder it slows down so quickly, it is those "forces" working against it!
B.) The wind factor is "always" present in some form, even 'unnoticeable' wind.
And then, when there is a cross wind, a portion of the speed of the wind is added to the velocity of the projectile (the vector sum), so the ball feels like it is going a little faster than it actually is.
That's because the forces on the ball, no matter what size, rise sharply with velocity, this extra forward resistance from what the ball would normally feel, is now translated to a side push, which accelerates the ball to the side, in the direction away from the wind.
This means that the most 'damage' done by a cross wind occurs in the early part of the flight when the ball is at it 'fastest'.
The ball slows down, but the sideways velocity does not, so the path of the ball curves even more as it travels down range. This is why shooting in a variable cross wind is, and will remain, one of the most frustrating things you can imagine....no matter what size the ball, although a heavier ball will face these challenges a bit more easily.

I apologize for getting so long winded, but as a graduate of Colorado School of Trades, being a life long "Gun Nut" for better than six decades, and a one time fairly strong competitor in the discipline of Silhouette, along with hosting the 1983, and the 1985 NRA LRP Nationals at Ft. Bliss, Texas, I have a very strong interest in ballistics, especially those of the lowly Muzzleloader....that, along with a strong desire to de-bunk all the 'old wives tales' that have plagued this noble sport since its popularity was regained, back in the early 1970's, has me sometimes preaching to the choir, and for that I apologize.

Uncle Russ...
 





 





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Online Hank in WV

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Re: CVA Varmint .32
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2017, 09:54:31 PM »
Russ, I'm a little curious about this statement:   B.) The sudden change in temperature and pressure is what creates the ‘gun blast’ we are all familiar with... Can you explain that a little better for this old knot head? :)   
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Re: CVA Varmint .32
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2017, 03:02:00 AM »
Russ, I'm a little curious about this statement:   B.) The sudden change in temperature and pressure is what creates the ‘gun blast’ we are all familiar with... Can you explain that a little better for this old knot head? :)

Hank, my friend, for this old boy to describe that process in his own words would be awkward at best.
And, for the sake of this discussion, I believe the lack of those "just right words", to describe what actually happens when a gun is fired, is perhaps the one big reason it is avoided in most discussions.
I honestly believe that many folks fully realize what is actually happening but lacking the ability to describe this process keeps them from speaking out.

Still yet, there are those who believe an explosion occurs otherwise we would not hear all that noise.
I know those folks are out there because I have met them, and I have talked to them.....great folks, all of 'em.
However, they have been miss led somewhere down the road.
   
So I went to Scientific American to get a more accurate description of what I wrote in the above post.

Tobias Rossmann, a research engineer with Advanced Projects Research and a visiting researcher at the California Institute of Technology, provides the following explanation.

Any discussion of what happens when an object breaks the sound barrier must begin with the physical description of sound as a wave with a finite propagation speed. Anyone who has heard an echo (sound waves reflecting off a distant surface) or been far enough away from an event to see it first and then hear it is familiar with the relatively slow propagation of sound waves. At sea level and standard atmospheric conditions of 22 degrees Celsius, sound waves travel at 345 meters per second (770 miles per hour). As the local temperature decreases, the sound speed also decreases, so for a plane flying at 35,000 feet, where the ambient temperature is 54*C, the local speed of sound is 295 meters per second (660 miles per hour).

Because the propagation speed of sound waves is finite, sources of sound that are moving can begin to catch up with the sound waves they emit. As the speed of the object increases to the sonic velocity (the local velocity of sound waves), these sound waves begin to pile up in front of the object. If the object has sufficient acceleration, it can burst through this barrier of sound waves and move ahead of the radiated sound. The change in pressure as the object outruns all the pressure and sound waves in front of it is heard on the ground as an explosion, or sonic boom.

Because the propagation speed of sound waves is finite, sources of sound that are moving can begin to catch up with the sound waves they emit. As the speed of the object increases to the sonic velocity (the local velocity of sound waves), these sound waves begin to pile up in front of the object. If the object has sufficient acceleration, it can burst through this barrier of sound waves and move ahead of the radiated sound. The change in pressure as the object outruns all the pressure and sound waves in front of it, is heard on the ground as an "explosion", or sonic boom. .....

*And, I will add for further clarification, "the sound of a gun shot", is no more, or no less, than a Sonic Boom happening right in front of you...in fact, you are holding the source of that Sonic Boom in your hands.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-happens-when-an-airc/

There you go my friend.
Just about as clear as a 10" mud pie, right?

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Offline Hanshi

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Re: CVA Varmint .32
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2017, 06:18:53 PM »
These little rifles can be so very accurate that they'll put a song in your heart.  Work up your own load - a chronograph is nice - for top accuracy.
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

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Re: CVA Varmint .32
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2017, 03:13:09 PM »
Gosh, Russ, I never thought I was signing up for an advanced course in physics and ballistics when I open this thread.  Wow, you knows yer stuff!!!  Thank you for all that.  Not sure I understood it all, but wow!!
One tiny correction though.  You said, "for a plane flying at 35,000 feet, where the ambient temperature is 54*C".  It would be -54C or -65.2F, which is a bit colder than I care to walk around in.  Hmmmm, that's higher than the summit of Mt. Everest isn't it?  How would I even walk there? :Doh!  Guess I'm outta luck.  Guess I'll just stay home and stay warm. :*:
John
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Online Hank in WV

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Re: CVA Varmint .32
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2017, 05:11:52 PM »
Thanks for all the research you've done there Russ. I've had a fair working knowledge of most of that but I still can't quite wrap my mind around how exactly temperature change would contribute to the blast. This subject might be a classic example of the old dogs and new tricks theorem.
Hank in WV
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Re: CVA Varmint .32
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2017, 05:30:44 PM »
Quote from: Hank in WV
This subject might be a classic example of the old dogs and new tricks theorem.
You may be right Hank, this discussion has been going on for years and years...same as the question of; "Why do we have to 'square' velocity to arrive at a number to define the amount of  Energy?".
Insofar as temperature affecting sound, I would have to use the same premise of, "Because that's the way its done".

John, thank you for the kind words, my little 'outburst' on Ballistics may have not been appropriate for this thread, and I'll be the first to admit it, but such threads often bring out other aspects of shooting that many shooters just don't understand.

However, a basic knowledge of Ballistics is good for the soul of every shooter, and helps in many ways to do away with the many "Old wives Tales" that have plagued this wonderful sport since day one.

Back when the wonderful world of Muzzleloaders was starting to come into full bloom, sometime in the early 1970's I suspect, there was so much misinformation passed around as "gospel" that many good shooters gave up on the sport because they believed every local expert, while at the time having very few  places to go for research that would help...all the tales of a Witches Brew being necessary for a decent Lube was pure nonsense, the idea that once a spark hit that Black Powder in the barrel a explosion occurred, and pushing a round ball over 2,600 fps was certain to give one a more "stretched string trajectory", along with an additional ton or two of energy.
All that with ranges being extended to over 250, even 350yds....without any consideration or understanding at all of the forces affecting that round ball in flight at those speeds.

That statement begs another question; "Can a round ball be fired accurately at those ranges?"
The answer is absolutely yes!

However, we must understand that the trajectory of that round ball, at those ranges, is much less than desirable, it is less than desirable only as long as we are still thinking in terms of what a center-fire cartridge might do at the same range, and the current accepted method of how we measure energy.
And that, within itself, is one of the major reasons that the wonderful performance of the round ball, within its own range, is very often overlooked, and even at times flat-out condemned.

Still yet, a round ball, of modest caliber, with a mid range trajectory of no more than 6 to 8" will perform very well at longer ranges, without supersonic speeds, and it will be ranges that often surprise the shooter / hunter unless he has verified those ranges himself, in his gun, or the gun he will be hunting with....therein lies the "secret", if such can be said, of long range Muzzleloading with a round ball.
However, shooting a more ballistic friendly Pritchett type "ball", a Minnie Ball, or about any conical 'bullet" makes long range seem not so long, after all.
By having a higher Ballistic Coefficient, ie Flight Friendly design, they are not facing the same forces that occur with a round ball.

A muzzleloader can be more, a lot more, than a just a 50 or 60 yard gun.

Uncle Russ...

   
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Offline SharpStick

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Re: CVA Varmint .32
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2017, 07:39:38 PM »
The "temperature affecting sound" part is fairly simple.  It's due to the density of the air. The denser the air is the faster sound propagates. The Scientific American article where it says speed of sound is 770 mph at sea level and 660 at 35,000 feet is somewhat incorrect.  The speeds are probably correct, but the explanation is not.

As elevation increases the air density decreases and sound moves more slowly. At any given elevation as the temperature increases the air becomes less dense and sound moves more slowly.  The change in the speed of sound from sea level to 35,000 feet is due to an increase in speed from the decreased temperature and much greater decrease in speed due to the thinner air way up there.

When we're shooting were probably staying at the same altitude so we care the most about the effect of temperature on the air density and the resulting change in the speed of sound.

And temperature can have a big effect on air density. A number years ago they had to close the Phoenix airport when the temperature went up to 122 degrees F.  The air was so thin they didn't know how the safe operating parameters for the aircraft. That is, their charts didn't go to high enough temperatures to tell them how to set their flaps and stuff for takeoffs and landings.

But, most of all, I wish I could shoot well enough that I could notice the effect of a few degree temperature change .  ;)
« Last Edit: December 08, 2017, 07:41:18 PM by SharpStick »
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Online Uncle Russ

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Re: CVA Varmint .32
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2017, 08:28:25 PM »
Nice Post Sharp Stick!
As I had mentioned previously, one of the major reasons for folks not openly discussing this subject is not the lack of knowledge, but rather the lack of ability to describe what's actually happening, so others can understand it...myself included.

You did a great job, IMHO
 :hairy

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Re: CVA Varmint .32
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2017, 10:18:56 PM »
Well, I must be like that high altitude air, dense. I can't see the connection with a sudden change in air temp with helping to create a gun blast. I guess I'll have to come down out of the clouds. Thanks for trying.
Hank in WV
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