Traditional Muzzleloading Association

Shooting Traditional Firearms and Weapons => General Interest => Topic started by: melsdad on February 20, 2008, 12:22:53 PM

Title: Fine tuning a trigger for accuracy?
Post by: melsdad on February 20, 2008, 12:22:53 PM
What can I do to make my trigger pull smoother, and to lighten it up some. I have a Lyman trade Rifle, I have no idea what the trigger pull poundage is from the factory. I am certain some stoning is involved, but am not sure where to start. Pictures or a tutorial would be great.

Thanks
Title:
Post by: Sir Michael on February 20, 2008, 05:51:53 PM
Remove the trigger and the lock and polish the surface of the trigger that moves against the sear and then polish the surface of the sear that the trigger moves against.  That will make it as smooth as possible the trigger pull can only be changed by relocating the trigger pivot point closer to the sear bar.  

You might also want to completely disassemble the lock and polish every surface that is against another metal surface.  If there are any visible wear points polish the part that is making the mark until it doesn't.  Inletting Black is good for finding wear points that haven't made themselves obvious yet. :hairy
Title:
Post by: Hank in WV on February 20, 2008, 08:07:04 PM
You can lighten the pull by grinding the sear spring a little narrower and thinner. Grind in the direction of the spring and not across it. Be careful and go slow. Then put a high polish on it. Also, do this on the part after the bend.
Title:
Post by: Pichou on February 21, 2008, 07:33:22 PM
Hi,

I was told to take the lock out, and try it, then take the sear srping off and try the lock again in your hand.  Also move the trigger with the lock out any of thos things can make it hard you don't want to work on one without knowing about the other things.  But polish is always good  8)
Title:
Post by: RichW on February 22, 2008, 09:44:22 AM
Quote from: "Pichou"
Hi,

I was told to take the lock out, and try it...

Who on earth told you that??????
 :rotf  :rotf  :rotf

Oh, I did? :P
Title:
Post by: Pichou on February 27, 2008, 06:05:06 PM
Wiseguy hmmm?  Nyuck nyuck nyuck

(http://myles.eftos.id.au/presentations/crazy_hijax/ui/default/photo_body_choward.jpg)
Title:
Post by: Old Salt on February 28, 2008, 07:18:36 AM
Quote from: "Hank in WV"
You can lighten the pull by grinding the sear spring a little narrower and thinner. Grind in the direction of the spring and not across it. Be careful and go slow. Then put a high polish on it. Also, do this on the part after the bend.

Hank,

The sear spring on a Lyman lock is a very small coil spring.  About all you can do is compress it a little and then give it a try.  If you compress it too much the nose of the sear won't engage the tumbler with sufficient force to be safe.  Of course you can then just stretch it back a little.  

Salt
Title:
Post by: melsdad on February 28, 2008, 09:33:55 AM
Old salt, when my lock is in the full cock position the coil spring looks completely compressed. What else can be done with this spring?
Title:
Post by: melsdad on February 28, 2008, 09:36:11 AM
Here is a picture of it in the half cock position.

(http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee43/MELZDAD/MUZZLOADER/0101025.jpg)
Title:
Post by: melsdad on February 28, 2008, 09:54:08 AM
I have stoned and polished all of the mateing surfaces of the lock assembly, and I can feel a big difference in the triggers smoothness. However the trigger pull itself still seems to be quite heavy. Is there something else that can be done to lighten the trigger pull without any major modifications to the lock?
Title:
Post by: Old Salt on February 28, 2008, 09:57:15 AM
Melsdad,

I can't see the picture when I'm at work. :?  

Without seeing your photo I think you have displayed the main spring on the Lyman lock.  You can't do anything to that spring to better trigger pull.

Salt
Title:
Post by: melsdad on February 28, 2008, 10:04:21 AM
O.K., I understand what spring you mean now, sorry I am still learning all of the parts and there proper names. When I had the lock apart for stoning, and polishing, I didn't pay much attention to this spring.
Title:
Post by: Old Salt on February 28, 2008, 11:53:58 AM
Quote from: "melsdad"
O.K., I understand what spring you mean now, sorry I am still learning all of the parts and there proper names. When I had the lock apart for stoning, and polishing, I didn't pay much attention to this spring.

No need to be sorry, your curiosity is a positive trait.

I've read posts where people cut a portion of one coil off the sear spring to get a lighter trigger pull.  Just be very carefull whatever you decide to do.    

If there is not enough pressure exerted from the sear spring when the lock is at full cock the lock can be caused to fire with very little pressure on the cock.  Basically the sear nose does not fully engage the tumbler notch so it is easily knocked out of the notch.

You can percieve the danger presented with a loaded and primed rifle.  

Salt
Title:
Post by: Sir Michael on February 28, 2008, 03:53:10 PM
Before you go cutting or messing with the sear spring I'd examine the interface between the sear and the tumbler.  Observe very carefully what the tumbler does as you raise the sear bar.  You may need to use a magnifying glass and a good light to see what's going on.  If the sear has to rotate the tumbler before releasing it you can fix this by straightening the face of the full cock notch on the tumbler.  Also look at how far the sear has to move before releasing the tumbler.  You may also need to remove some of the excess material from the outer perimeter of the tumbler.  You may also see that only a small portion of the sear actually touches the tumbler.  This needs to be made square to the tumbler.

Just a couple of thoughts. :lol:
Title:
Post by: melsdad on February 28, 2008, 07:02:55 PM
Don't worry, I had no intentions of cutting the spring. The spring is what gives the cock the energy to strike the frizzen correct?

The way the sear and the tumbler are now in relation to each other, as far as angle goes. The sear does have to rotate the tumbler a bit to release the cock. The way the angles are now the sear is sort of captured in the tumbler at full cock. I thought of changing this angle to more of a 90° instead of the roughly 80° angle that it is now. this way the sear would only have to slide off of the face of the tumbler instead of having to push it out of the way as it is now.
Title:
Post by: Captchee on February 28, 2008, 08:32:24 PM
melsdad
 This is because of a potential  lawsuit  that was files a couple years back against  Lyman. They used to have very good easily tuned triggers . However  you could tune the double set triggers to where they only had about 1lb pull .
 The person who filed the lawsuit did this which made the gun unsafe  and it went off before he was ready to fire . From what I was told this resulted in a hole in the covered  section of the range he was at and  his removal from the range.
 Lyman then followed this by putting  a shorter adjustment screw in their double sets and a greater angle on the full cock notch   .

 This made it so the only way someone could get a better trigger pull was to modify the  tumbler or change out the adjustment screw .

 You problem stems from this .
 Whats happening is as you pull the trigger the sear must cock the lock back just alittle before the sear will fall from the full cock .
 You can fix this but it will require filing the full cock notch . If you chose to do this , DO NOT  file the notch past 90 deg .
 You should not attamt to shorten the depth of the notch as the lyman tumbler design  is  so that the full cock notch is just outside the  plain of the half cock .
 By shortening the depth of the full cock you will bring it into the plain of the half cock . The fly will let the sear slide for a time but  eventually you will find it hanging   on the half cock . When you  then take the lock off you will find that its really hanging on the fly . This is cause by a burr that is formed by the sear contacting the fly  at the wrong angle for the design
Title:
Post by: melsdad on February 28, 2008, 09:09:03 PM
I totally understand what you are saying about the angle Captchee. If the angle were taken past 90°, the sear would simply want to fall off of the tumbler, and be totally unsafe. I am sure the design of the lock assembly as it is now, is for protection of Lymans own butt.
Title:
Post by: Sir Michael on February 28, 2008, 09:14:08 PM
It is my understanding of the sear/tumbler interface is that the surface of the tumbler full cock notch should be on the plane of a straight line drawn from the pivot point of the tumbler through the outer perimeter of the tumbler and that the face of the sear that interfaces with it should be the same angle so that they are flush.  If this makes sense.   :shake
Title:
Post by: melsdad on February 28, 2008, 09:30:10 PM
That makes sense to me Sir Michael, I will look at this more closely.

One problem I have is (refer to picture of lock) the 2 screws that are next to each other, holding the small plate that covers the tumbler. The threads are about ruined on the screws, and the threads in the lock. I fear that if I take this apart one more time I will be forced to make new screws, and I will need to put helicoils in the threads in the lock plate. I have only removed the screws twice and I noticed the first time I removed them, the threads looked like were tore up from when the lock was assembled. So far this is the only downfall I have come across with this gun.
Title:
Post by: Sir Michael on February 28, 2008, 11:53:56 PM
:?  :shake
Title:
Post by: Captchee on February 29, 2008, 09:16:39 AM
no need to  replace the lock because of the screws . simply replace them with a fraction higher screw . If the thread in the lock plate itself are striping then  the plate  can simply be re-taped .    If your threads are stripping in the lock plate , my bet is that the plate it self is not hardened which is not un common  to see in production guns . those two screws shouldnt create a proble in doing this  as they are not pivots for anything , just  screws that hold the tumbler bridle  in place .


  If you have no experience in this , simply take it to a gun smith and have them do it .
  They will either tap to a large screw or weld the hole closed , clean things up  , re -drill and tap the holes.
  folks to many times  when disassembling locks think everything need torqued down  . I see this from everything from lock screws themselves  to  the lock plate screws. .
Folks just apply alittle lock tight and then snug things down , no need to reef the pudding out of the screw to seat it .
Title: No expert, but there is one thing
Post by: Dragoon on June 09, 2008, 04:05:59 PM
Does your weapon have the set trigger assembly? If so, there is a screw between the two triggers that adjusts the trigger pull. I discovered this last night looking up parts for my Lyman Plains Rifle. I plan on doing some cleaning and polishing first and then testing out the pull and adjusting it. Mine could be lighter than it is, but not a lot once I have pulled the "set" trigger.

Go to http://www.lymanproducts.com/lymanproducts/index.htm (http://www.lymanproducts.com/lymanproducts/index.htm) and look up your gun and there is a complete schematic and instructions there.
Title:
Post by: Sir Michael on June 09, 2008, 04:57:02 PM
I have a gun that has two screws that adjust the set trigger.  One, in the trigger plate adjusts the pull on the trigger (length of the pull) the second, is on the tumbler adjusts how much of the sear engages the tumbler.  For this type it is a balancing act between the two.
Title:
Post by: melsdad on June 09, 2008, 06:18:03 PM
Sorry guys no set trigger on my trade rifle. Since I have posted this question a few months back. I have got my trigger to were I like it thanks to all the help from the folks of the TMA.
Title:
Post by: vermontfreedom on June 09, 2008, 08:51:30 PM
can someone post a picture, a link to a picture, or a schematic of the working side of a lock with sears and tumblers and flys indicated

some of us newbies might benefit from a little instruction in the names and parts

thanks,
Title:
Post by: Sir Michael on June 09, 2008, 09:37:05 PM
Here's a couple of links that should be able to answer your questions.  If they can't you ask away here.

http://www.howstuffworks.com/flintlock.htm

This one also goes into all sorts of other things as well.  

http://home.insightbb.com/~bspen/

 :hairy
Title:
Post by: Captchee on June 09, 2008, 09:37:17 PM
here you go VF
Percussion Lock Terminology
http://members.aye.net/~bspen/percterm.html

Flint Lock Terminology
http://members.aye.net/~bspen/flintterm.html

Basic Lock Function
http://members.aye.net/~bspen/lockfunction.html.
Title:
Post by: Lady of the Woods on June 09, 2008, 09:40:06 PM
Fantastic thread, I really appreciated all the information. My GPR had a very stout pull and ultimately was one of the reasons I traded it off. Had I known more about it at the time I could have adjusted it. (still would a been to heavy for me though)  Agree with Vermontfreedom, would love to see a picture with the sears and tumblers.
Z
Title:
Post by: Captchee on June 09, 2008, 10:13:24 PM
(http://members.aye.net/~bspen/percterm-I.jpg)

A- Upper limb of mainspring
 B- Lower limb of mainspring
C- Claw of mainspring
 D- Lower pivot stud of stirrup
 
E- Stirrup
 F- Upper pivot stud of stirrup
 
G- Tumbler axle/pivot
 H- Tumbler
 
I- Pawl of sear (sear nose)
 J- Sear pivot screw
 
K- Body of the sear
 L- Arm of the sear
 
M- Sear spring
 N- Sear spring screw
 
O- Bridle
 P- Bridle screws
 
Q- Hammer
 R- Hammer spur
 
S- Hammer head
 T- Stirrup arm of tumbler
 
U- Bolster
 V- Lockplate

(http://members.aye.net/~bspen/flintterm-E.jpg)

A- Lockplate
 B- Feather of frizzen spring
C- Frizzen spring screw
 D- Mainspring retainer stud
 
E- Frizzen spring
 F- Tail of frizzen
 
G- Frizzen pivot screw
 H- Frizzen (hammer, steel)
 
I- Face of frizzen
 J- Pan
 
K- Flashguard
 L- Cock (hammer)
 
M- Lower (fixed) vise jaw
 N- Upper (moveable) vise jaw
 
O- Vise screw (cock screw)
 P- Sear spring screw tip
 
Q- Tail of lockplate
 R- Sear pivot screw tip
 
S- Tumbler screw


(http://members.aye.net/~bspen/flintterm-I.jpg)

A- Upper limb of mainspring
 B- Lower limb of mainspring
C- Mainspring retainer hook
 D- Tumbler hook of mainspring
 
E- Cup of tumbler
 F- Tail of frizzen
 
G- Tumbler axle/pivot
 H- Frizzen (hammer, steel)
 
I- Face of frizzen
 J- Pan
 
K- Flashguard
 L- Cock (hammer)
 
M- Lower (fixed) vise jaw
 N- Upper (moveable) vise jaw
 
O- Vise screw (cock screw)
 P- Bridle
 
Q- Sear pivot screw
 R- Body of the sear
 
S- Arm of the sear
 T- Sear spring
 
U- Sear spring screw
 V- Bridle screw
 
W- Stop, upper vise jaw
 X- Cock spur (hammer spur)
 
Y- Frizzen pivot screw
 Z- Bolster
 
AA- Fly
 BB- Frizzen spring retainer stud
Title:
Post by: Lady of the Woods on June 09, 2008, 10:24:28 PM
EXCELLENT! I am going to have to pull this up at work tomorrow and print for my shooting journal. THANK YOU!
Z
Title:
Post by: melsdad on June 10, 2008, 04:41:14 AM
Thank you captchee, for the great information. This will be helpful to many people in the future.
Title:
Post by: Captchee on June 10, 2008, 09:15:14 AM
no problem .
 follow the links i provided in the  post prior to the photos , they will take you to the pages that show the same information  and more
Title:
Post by: vermontfreedom on June 11, 2008, 03:04:07 PM
flies and tumbler and sears, oh my!

thanks - now I know my Ps and Qs  :)