I have no problem here mark .
Again I must remind you that you seem to be feeling personally attacked here and your not .
While I do find your choice of words somewhat irritating “Cult “ or as a life long hunter my self the thought of justifying experience by number of kills . I can get past that . To each their own , no mater how much I disagree with that line of thought .
Here is the deal what qualifies for killing power ?
Again in todays way of thinking we have this warped since of view / opinion on this .
These same lines of though range all through the different hunting disciplines
For archery it’s the given idea that compounds are more effective then traditional bows .
Even in the wheel bow community there is a difference . Ya I know because I don’t a lot of compound hunting as well through the years . IE the speed of and overdraw with light carbon arrows is somehow better the slower velocities of a large heavy arrow of the riser mounted rest . Then we have those that feel that a BH with retractable blades is better then a fixed blade . I stopped at Cabelas last week and was looking in the archery section and to my amazement here were retractable broad heads that opened to give near a 3 inch cut ?? , why
? Whats the need
Get in range and Place your shot
In the modern center fire world you have folks touting bigger is better magnums over standards . Large calibers over smaller . I cant tell you how many times I have heard this same argument that you seem to be putting forth. IE 270 . 30.30 is no good for elk or XXXX you need to go bigger
? Why ? Whats the need , get in range and place your shot .
We have the same thing with muzzleloaders .
Somehow its come to the thought that modern is better then traditional . That folks need higher faster . Longer range . They simply have to have it . I just don’t understand that line of thinking . Whats the need , get in range , place your shot .
That is why a bring up the 22 . As an example
Lets ask ourselves here a few questions concerning muzzleloader .
What was the most common caliber of rifles prior to the plains area ?
If we look we will find that concerning rifles 50 cal was a big bore . And in fact what we consider squirrel guns today were the calibers most commonly used to take deer IE 40 cal and smaller . Now lets remember these were people who to make money , left their farms every so often and went hinting for hides . Thinking back to my research I cant think of any documented case where these people were close enough to their civilization , where they could just go back and get more powder and ball . They had to make every shot count . Lets also not forget that these folks in most cases were in areas that they were not supposed to be . Thus if found or caught . They at the very least lost everything they had OR at the most lost everything they had to include their lives . So I seriously doubt it would have been a good idea do a group of men to be using a rifle that was to small for the job and thus resulting in them chasing an animal very far . Or for that mater taking more then one shot which in itself would have been very foolish . IE now not only did they let anyone within ear shot know exactly where they were but also using up their valuable supply of ammunition . Also not to mention sending them tracking an animal to who knows where
The rifle simply had to be consistent , highly accurate and thus effective . It had to be because their lives depended on it .
So how did these fellas do that considering that most of there rifles would not meet the minimum caliber requirements for their chosen pray that we have set today ?
Has the animal changed
have they evolved to be different then they were 200 years ago ?
Now lets jump forward to another very good example that was highly documented and detailed . That would be the Lewis and Clark expedition
If we look at the rifles they carried we find that lewis had a 36 . . They also obtained rifles in 49 . There is some debate as to if any 54 were taken . Now this is excluding the smoothbores
Clark writes in now and then about his favorite rifle which he referred to as his “small “ rifle . Now if this is do to it being made by Johns Small or if it was do to the Caliber ?? I don’t think anyone can say . But the point is , it was SMALL in caliber . However he must have been confident in using it as it id documented that he used it for elk . Mind you this would have most likely been the much larger Eastern elk .
The diary from John Ordway writes about one instance of the use of this rifle . He says
"the Capt. [Clark] Shot Several times at one [elk] but his rifle carried a Small Ball, took 2 men went to hunt it and he did not Git it.
But if we look at Clarks entry we find that he mentioned that in addition to killing two bull elk that evening he wounded two others, but could not track them by blood drops because "my ball was So too Small to bleed them well..
This is what SAM is speaking about when he says size of ball .NOT that the ball would not or could not effectively kill .
Now we could easly say that this proves your point , couldn’t we .
However if we read on we will find a number of accounts of hunters using larger caliber rifles and smoothbores , using every last ball in their bag but not succeeding in killing there animal . These are mostly concerning buffalo . Now how can this BE
Was it that the Ball was not adequate even at 69 cal
The answer is NO . the reason for this is that they did not know that a buffalo’s kill area is much lower then that of a deer or elk and thus they never placed the ball where it needed to go .
We do know though that Clark preferred his 36 when he could as he was still using it when he got to the pacific coast ..
Now what about the grizzly bears . Well despite being warned by local natives “ I would read them as experienced hunters wouldn’t you ?” that they would not hunt a bear without a large group of warriors . But Lewis felt that the bear would be no match for his rifleman “ mind you Lewis was an Experienced hunter to “
But he found out very quickly that even his large caliber rifles were no match .
This still holds true today even with center fire magnums . Hunters many times have a back up person ready to shoot but very few find a one shot kill .
So what does this teach us ??
Well to me at least it show that a 36 cal will kill big game . BUT if we rely on the same distances and kill areas that we do with deer , were probably going to be less then happy with the results . But this can also hold true with larger calibers if we do not place the shot correctly
See what im what im thinking is you trying to add in a BUT / what if .
I do the same and that’s why I chose to use what I use when im up on the canyon rims . Its not that the RB isn’t effective , it is . But I want to hit that bull with everything I got . If I owned a rifle that was 69 cal id still use a conical because I know that even when driven right through the hart and lungs that bull can still go further then I want .
But I also understand that this has nothing to do with effectiveness ONLY with my want .
These what IF’s happen to everyone , every hunter and it doesn’t mater the caliber you use or the gun type you use , you still can have what ifs .
The only way to lessen those is to become confident in the system you use be it rock ,a bow , muzzleloader r a center fire .
If your having difficulties or less the desirable results then you must find out what you are doing wrong because
Dead is dead Mark . Its final , there is no way of coming back from it be that a 22 cal round to the head at close range or a magnum caliber to the hart and lung at long range . Both effectively achieve the same things IE death .
If you definition of effectiveness is based on soul damage done you have to understand that you will never see with a muzzleloader ,the damage achieved my a small caliber high velocity center fire round .
Well you may if you go to some of the modern designs shooting heavy charges and jacketed bullets . But you will never see that type of secondary damage with a muzzleloader , regardless of the caliber you chose . Its simply not capable of doing that type of damage .
Lastly being an experience hunter has nothing to do with the amount of game you have taken . I have friends in Alabama that hunt from one or two tree stands all year long . They take a lot of deer to and in fact in 2 years can take more then I , my father and grandfather did in a life time .
But if they also with all honesty couldn’t track a raccoon in a mud bottom without a very Large blood trail . Now are they hunters
You bet they are god bless them .
But when they come out here and hunt a different way , they struggle . They have to learn new skills and agin NEW experiences .
Now I know I have already writen a book here but I been struggling to write this for 2 hours now so im going to keep at it .
One of these fellas called me up a few years back and said Charlie , I would like to hunt mule deer would you take me . Sure I said ..ill take 5 days off
He then calls me back all miffed that the state would only give him 1 tag !!
Yep I said that’s all you get . To which he replied , what are we going to do for the other 4 days .
Well said I unless you get real lucky and find the buck you want or accept a doe , then we will be hunting . He couldn’t get his mind around this . And we discussed it all summer long .
The day before the first day of his hunt , we sat around a camp fire talking .
The next morning we got up at 4 and hiked for 2 hours up the mountain to an area that I new had some nice bucks along the way I was checking sign , showing him tracks . He simply was amazed at the size and got all excited. Now mind you I would have to say this man is a very experienced hunter in his own right .But he wasn’t in his own Right and I had to explain that what the tracks were, were actually Doe’s or small bucks and NOT what he came here for . If he would have had his way he would have say right there on the trail .
We spent all morning checking out the basins , seeing lots of smaller bucks and doe’s . Any of which I would have hunted . But he wanted something bigger
On the third day he was getting kinda disgusted. With going up and down the mountain so we went to the very top and sat down .where we could look at most of the 3 basins from one place . Now this was something he could relate to so while as it was along a game trail with lots of sign .. I set up my spotting scope lit my pipe and started looking down into these DEEP , Deep Basins .
4 hours later with him not seeing a thing he was again getting miffed . Mumbling things like the cost of the hunt , not seeing anything , wasting his tag and such .
Finaly I had , had all I could take and said LOOK , we haven’t even hunted anything yet.
When you see a buck that you want that’s when we will start to hunt .
About an hour later he spotted a group of 7 bucks , way down in one of the basins and made the statement to the effect of . WOW there is a couple nice ones but they will never come up here . I wish I had my 7mm id take a shot .
So I said really ? In my book , that’s not hunting , its shooting , why not just hunt them and he kind of looked at me like I was stupid .
So we packed our gear and we worked our way down to those bucks . He finally took a nice 4X5 nothing record book mind you but a very respectable buck . We actually set up on that group 3 different times before he got a clear clean RB shot at less then 50 yards .
The buck went less the 30 yards and dropped .
The day I took him back to catch the plain home , he was still smiling
To this day when I talk with him on the phone , it always comes up about coming back out here to hunt . How great the experience was . I also always give him a bad time about it but someday I hope to have the money to go east and hunt with him .
So I will stop this book that I seem to have written here and say .
In my life time some of my best hunting remembrances had nothing to do with filling a tag or harvesting a deer on that hunt . I don’t harvest ever time I go out but I never fail to learn something on those hunts , thus I gain in experience . I don’t know it all but I do know that hunting is so much more then killing and I find no measure of experience in the numbers of animals one kills as proof of their hunting skills .
In fact in all honesty , I have come to the point in my life where I receive very little pleasure in the harvest . Though I do still get a vast amount of enjoyment in the hunt . I would just as well take another person out and hunt . My wife and I no longer really need the meet . Though with the economy the way it is , that may have to change .
Dead is dead . It doesn’t mater how one does it , only that they do it effectively and are reasonable enough to understand HOW to do it within the limitations of the weapon they have . If that’s a little 22 and they understand that they must be within no more then 30 yards , they are willing to accept that , take the time to work to get into range . Have learned to read the situation and thus have little doubt that they can place the shot , so be it . In doing so they have placed themselves in a situation where their weapon is effective and thus the result will be the same . DEATH
To coin a fraise here , FLAWLESS VICTORY
