Post by: Puffer on March 05, 2011, 02:56:04 PM
As many know, I wear a kilt. Am I PC incorrect ?? NO WAY. ( although my interp. is open to ???
As an example, According to " Washington Irving's " ASTORIA", the Scots that were a part of the "sea segment" wore them in "Hawaii" Obviously They they had them @ the Astoria Post.
Plus, here in the PNW, some Posts had "Pipers & so did "Gov. Simpson" Were they "Kilted"?? ( most likely ) Also the"HBC Beaver Club" indicates the wearing"
Puffer
Post by: Trois Castors on March 05, 2011, 08:35:10 PM
Post by: Puffer on March 05, 2011, 09:54:46 PM
Quote from: "Trois Castors"
Puffer,two Voyageur reenactor friends of mine(McGregor&McCleod)wore plain red kilts canoeing or in camp(rendezvous).These were not their dress "tartan" as both of them had them too.IIRC it was more like "workwear",maybe?.......have you ever heard of such a thing? :toast
A work kilt go for it ( a good Kilt = $$$$ )
Puffer
Post by: Trois Castors on March 06, 2011, 04:31:04 AM
Quote from: "Puffer"
( a good Kilt = $$$$ )Yeah!......at $100.00/yd. just for the material
Post by: Loyalist Dave on March 06, 2011, 10:52:37 AM
As for Tartans, they weren't "codified" until the 19th century, but they existed much earlier. The "set" or the weaving pattern of the width of the stripes and the stripe frequency were more important at first, probably due to the lack of a large amount of diversity in available colors. The Black Watch tartan for example is from the Campbell set..., using different colors than the Campbell family tartan. The big question is how factioned were the sets prior to the 19th century?
LD
Post by: Puffer on March 06, 2011, 01:53:03 PM
Puffer
Post by: Puffer on March 06, 2011, 02:36:20 PM
NOTE, I am NOT an expert. ( I am somewhat familiar with the Kilt, Both as a owner/wearer, "advise" from others who, IMO are. ( Historians, Top end makers etc + I was an "adviser" on a Major Kilt forum & now am a MOD on a "Scots forum"
But NOTE the below is my "opinion & is offered ONLY as "food for thought"
1. The "term "plaid" - although it is sometimes used for a kilt, now days, it most often used to refer to the use of the what was "left over after creating a philabeg ( some "modern names Fly plaid ( a Dress adaptation ), a Pipers Plaid, & a Lairds/Day plaid ( as in my adapt pic.)
2. The "great Kilt" was not "sewn " originally, nor should be now. ( although some mfg.s offer to sew the pleats/folds for the convenience of donning. ( think a big blanket used as attire & "belted/folded for "convenience")
3. It appears that the "original"Féileadh Mòr used material that was about 50" wide & 48" ++ long.
4. The philabeg - You are correct that this "Kilt" was the result to have a more Unitarian kilt.
a. Initially, simply cutting off the top part of the Féileadh Mòr
b. Later taking the wider material, & 1/2ing it.& sewing the results together.
c. It appears the "early one wear not "pleated". The "concept" of "sewn pleats" seem to appear in the late Georgian/early Victorian period (??)
d. A "proper" Kilt ( either Féileadh Mòr or philabeg is ever "hemmed"
As I said, just my "thoughts" The bottom Line = IMO, GET a Kilt, Wear & enjoy. DO NOT SWEAT the SMALL CRAP.
BTW, unless you wish to portray the earlier dates, a Féileadh Mòris ???
Plus although I do not own, I have worn & they are, IMHO a Pain in the rear to put on & move in.
The "Clan Tartan" ???
Prior to 1746 there was no such thing per say.
A. the"clans" wore what was woven in area or they liked ( many examples ( art) that show a "Chief" wearing one & his siblings wearing others" Also note in inner clan warfare, it was not the "tartan that ID'd but the "foliage"/ribbon in the Tam.
In 1745, the "wearing of the "Tartan was BANNED. In 1782 it was lifted & because of this & the Brit. Royalty ect, the Attire became "popular ( starting with George IV) & the the tartans started to become "codified" by both Scots weavers & English.
Puffer
Post by: Puffer on March 06, 2011, 03:10:25 PM
Quote from: "Trois Castors"
Quote from: "Puffer"( a good Kilt = $$$$ )Yeah!......at $100.00/yd. just for the material
You be correct BUT it depends on a LOT of factors. ( weaver, rarity of tartan etc)
I own 12 8 yd. Wool kilts ( all new Mod, period, civilian, made to order ( MoDs never pre worn) The most I have paid was $400.00 ( incl. 3 "custom & a "rare MoD") YES $$ but ...
Also, There are some "synthetics out there, a that are good & less $$$ ( I own 4 )
BTW, I acquired mine over a period of time & being patient + advice.
If You, or ANY TMA member needs Help, contact me, I will do my Da^nst tto assist.
Pufffer
Post by: Loyalist Dave on March 08, 2011, 09:06:32 AM
The Breacan an Fhéilidh was the "belted plaid", not a "kilt" as we understand the term, and the Féileadh Mòr is the "great plaid". The terms fèileadh beag, filibeg, or philabeg refer to the "small kilt, or walking kilt, and are essentually the lower half of the great plaid or belted plaid.
The "modern" kilt, the philabeg with the pleats sewn in existed as early as 1792, and an original example is held by the Scottish Clans Authority. This became very popular, and was the style adopted by the British army unto this day. So 20 plus years prior to the Western fur trade, sometimes called the American Era.
As I pointed out, the "tartan" was not codified prior to 1746, but the "set" was associated with certain families...., otherwise why outlaw the "tartan" at all? Note that the garment was not outlawed, but the tartan was. How does one outlaw what does not exits..., hence it must therefor have existed as some basis for identification as an item of rebellion. No
? The Campbells were very pro-brittain, and they got the "nod" (and the cash) to make the plaids for the Blackwatch, though they used different colors than in their own plaids.LD
Post by: Puffer on March 08, 2011, 02:29:52 PM
Quote from: "Loyalist Dave"
First, I wasn't busting your chops.
The Breacan an Fhéilidh was the "belted plaid", not a "kilt" as we understand the term, and the Féileadh Mòr is the "great plaid". The terms fèileadh beag, filibeg, or philabeg refer to the "small kilt, or walking kilt, and are essentually the lower half of the great plaid or belted plaid.
The "modern" kilt, the philabeg with the pleats sewn in existed as early as 1792, and an original example is held by the Scottish Clans Authority. This became very popular, and was the style adopted by the British army unto this day. So 20 plus years prior to the Western fur trade, sometimes called the American Era.
As I pointed out, the "tartan" was not codified prior to 1746, but the "set" was associated with certain families...., otherwise why outlaw the "tartan" at all? Note that the garment was not outlawed, but the tartan was. How does one outlaw what does not exits..., hence it must therefor have existed as some basis for identification as an item of rebellion. No
LD
LD, #1 I took NO OFFENSE @ your comments. & if my reply, seemed to be an "attack" it was NOT. My response was simply to "stir the Pot."
As I mentioned, over the years, I have "observed" a fair amount of discussion on the subjects we broached. These oft time get VERY interesting. ( & sad to say contentious )
Personally, I take the "position, that although, we have "SOME" info. - Actual kilts - philabeg ( very few) some documentation,( paintings are iffy), there is a LOT of latitude.
Similar to "what attire a "long hunters" wore etc.
When I had my "period" kilt !800 -1812 ) made, the man who made it ( an accredited Historian ) presented me with a # of existing examples. They ranged from No pleats, folds. Sewn pleats ( Box,knife, box, Kingussie Pleated to ....)
The one I choose was a 5 yd. "box pleat" with button closures. ( yes it exists in a museum.) Is it PC = YES. ( except the Tartan ) Is it the "only PC" = ABSOLUTELY NOT. The "only thing is that they seem to have had a "high waist. All else is "open".
As to, "outlawing, IMHO, YES it was the "tartan" not the garment. But IMHO it was not the specific "clan tartan" the Tartan in general.
As to the "Black Watch" - Here is a "discussion that is interesting" - http://www.sconemac.com/bwatch.html (http://www.sconemac.com/bwatch.html)
2 Personal notes
1. At this time, my Ancestors ( Black Douglas ) being both "anti crown & were Border Reivers & these ( the "Watch")were the "cops". ( as were all other "watch units raised by the "Marsh Wardens")
As to attire, some say initially some say Féileadh Mòr, others an "early form of the philabeg" or many, when mounted, "pants"
As to the influence of the " Campbell s" = YEP ( the Grants,Fraser, Monroe etc. were also "involved".
Again, wearing a kilt in the "Americas" is well documented, but what, IMO = ??? In the FUR TRADE = YES, & again, what + ????
IMO, You can "attempt" to be PC ( as best you can, but remember DO NOT "thump others heads" if disagree on "your take"
GO FORTH, WEAR THE KILT
Puffer
Post by: Riley/MN on March 08, 2011, 02:46:23 PM
Post by: Puffer on March 08, 2011, 03:25:55 PM
Quote from: "Riley/MN"
Yeah but, what do you wear under it?
:rotf
But "seriously" I do not go "regimental"
I wear at least "boxers" a "slip," or "bike shorts"
1. My wool kilts cost "mutcho" $$$ to clean. ( think ....)
2. Wool irradiates " my "privates"
3. Modesty
4. At My age,Being "motcho" is not my thing
Just a side note, shirts, until recently were long ( thigh length so ....
Puffer
Post by: Riley/MN on March 08, 2011, 06:24:17 PM
So I just had to ask....
Post by: Kermit on March 08, 2011, 06:43:44 PM
*My shoes and socks.
*Nothing is worn, everything is in perfect working order.
*A wee set of pipes.
*It's the smallest airport in the world.....2 hangars and a night fighter.
*How badly do you want to know?
*What God graced me with.
*Gi’e me your hand lassie, I’m a mon o’ few words.
For the visual among you, see here:
http://old-plod-of-plympton.blogspot.co ... -kilt.html (http://old-plod-of-plympton.blogspot.com/2010/04/what-is-worn-under-mans-kilt.html)
When younger, I was an active Scottish country dancer, and we (the lads) all wore black Speedos there.
Properly, you can wear whatever you please, unless in an active highland regiment, in which case if you wear anything there, I'm told, you are out of uniform, lad. An exception, I understand, is the pipe major, because of the need for some modesty given his high-stepping antics at parade. Undergarments may also be worn while dancing or competing in highland games.
BTW, the kilt pin, I'm given to understand, is a Victorian addition. The tale goes that Queen Victoria was reviewing troops, and as a highland regiment passed by, a bit of a breeze blew up, exposing some of the Scots' equipment. Her sensibilities offended, she declared that a pin was to be added to the apron of their kilts. The vain Scots, proud of the hang of their garments, couldn't bear messing with their accustomed appearance. In compliance with royal orders, the pins were duly added to the apron, but not to pin down that wonderful flowing aspect of the kilt. It is to this day, only a decoration, serving no other function. I often eschew a kilt pin, especially in day attire.
I have two modern kilts (both "ancient" colors, Fraser, hunting and dress), and wear them with fair frequency. I think they ran me around $400 each, custom tailored in Edinburgh about 20-25 years ago. But in my case, they are not 'voo duds. I question the style, the setts, and the dyes used to produce them--not HC. Just not my personal interest. I'm a quarter Scots, and a quarter Swiss, and eighth each Dane and Swede. The rest is general mongrel New Englander, primarily English, wherefrom my surname cometh. I figure I can pretty much pick any persona orientation and it fits. I've just never been interested in portraying an 18th century Scot, and especially not a Highland regiment Scot. Besses don't fit me.
Many Americans--especially the young, for some reason, wear their kilts too long. In Scotland I've been told that the center of the kneecap is the max, and if you've got a bit of pride in your legs, they can be a couple of inches above the kneecap. Mine are at the top of the 'cap. Most also wear them too low on the waist. They should be just below the ribcage. Kilts can feel funny to those used to trousers riding at the hips.
If you dig it though, read a bit, ask some questions, and go for it. I just ask that you do a better job than those SCA wobs who show up in Utilikilts and think they are something other than pure fiction. Good god, I once saw one at a rondy!
Post by: Puffer on March 08, 2011, 09:19:02 PM
Quote from: "Kermit"
If you dig it though, read a bit, ask some questions, and go for it.
Plus I like your "take on the "modern wearing of the kilt"
Puffer
Post by: Firewalker on March 08, 2011, 09:38:44 PM
Post by: Puffer on March 08, 2011, 10:37:15 PM
If you want to be HC, then ???? You can come close (style sett ), but as Kermit said, DYES. ( although I do know a "Lady" that is now dying/preparing/spinning wool per "period" & is trying to "amass" enough to use to weave a "Tartan" ( she figures about 5 years from now
OH YEH, IMO. If you claim HC in clothing, then if you wear linen, you had better "document" that it was grown, prepared, woven etc per "period ( trust me making linen is a "BI^ch before the "industrial age.)
Again, do your best & DO NOT Make claims. I, even @ my "best",I tell people that what I wear is simply a "representation"to the best I can present, but NOT PERFECT Then go out, wear the Kilt & have Fun.
puffer.
Post by: Loyalist Dave on March 09, 2011, 08:57:50 AM
Immigrated to Canada, and kept moving west ahead of government, finally my grandfather came down into Idaho from Canada in 1899.LD
Post by: Puffer on March 09, 2011, 02:53:38 PM
Quote from: "Loyalist Dave"
Well Lad, if you are Black Douglas and no friend of any Watch nor of the Campbells, then we be friends for I am of the Sept Abbot of the Highland Clan MacNab, and we were run out of the Highlands by the Campbells and their ilk. :toast :shock:
What I do know, is that one of the "Hayden" holdings was held by "branch" & the "eldest Son" fell in Love with a "Black Douglas Lass"
OOOPS. The "Hayden family SAID NO WAY. Marry her & you are "cut off." He said ( basically "up yours", Married Her, went to "Holland", boarded a ship ( 1622 ) & came to the "colonies".
Was He "cut off = yes, but He had some $$$ ( established a "plantation" & was successful ( by the Amer. cival war my direct ancestor owned a large "plantation" in Missouri ( another story)
Obviously, My Black Douglas, Blood line is "Matriarchal" But this "Lady" is " proudly" referred/ respected" to ( as are the other
Ladies ) Also note, the "Black Douglas" Historian, has "formally" made me a part of the "family" :( but, a "Hayden rel. in Can. imparted that His "family" ( Hayden) was involved with "Fur Trade" ( HBC & still hold a 'fair amount of stock) )
His direct rel. Worked for the HBC & in 1812 formed a Can. Militia Rifle Co.. :shake & gave me permission to use & off I went. :shock: ) & yes my ancestors may take up "arms" against" me. 8)
Puffer
Post by: Kermit on April 10, 2011, 02:39:27 PM
Here's a look, and how to get started with a book and this on-line supplement so you can make your own box pleated small kilt. I think I'm going to give it a try.
http://www.scottishtartans.org/boxpleat.html (http://www.scottishtartans.org/boxpleat.html)
Download the low-res version if you're just having a look. Be aware that this is a supplement to the book that can be ordered. I haven't found it as a downloadable file.
So much to learn...
Post by: Puffer on April 10, 2011, 08:12:57 PM
Quote from: "Kermit"
Hey, Puffer, I thought I'd bring this back up. I've been doing some reading on-line, and what I'm learning is that my two knife pleated kilts are probably not appropriate. It was apparently a style that gained popularity during the 19th century, becoming the full-blown 8/9-yard kilt late in the century. What I'm reading is that the kilt of the 18th and early 19th century was box pleated. Cheaper to make too, since it only takes about 4 yards of cloth to do. Also, solids are appropriate, especially if Irish, but certainly HC in Scotland too.:lol:
Here's a look, and how to get started with a book and this on-line supplement so you can make your own box pleated small kilt. I think I'm going to give it a try.
http://www.scottishtartans.org/boxpleat.html (http://www.scottishtartans.org/boxpleat.html)
Download the low-res version if you're just having a look. Be aware that this is a supplement to the book that can be ordered. I haven't found it as a downloadable file.
So much to learn...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/looks/p396.jpg)
For Me, My "4-5 yd. box pleat does the job from 1800 +++ ( def. HC) BUT, I wear my MoD knife & Mil. Box kilts often ( late 1820s ++ , may not be HC but NEITHER am I
Kermit, Make the BOX & enjoy.
Jack
Post by: Kermit on April 11, 2011, 11:06:35 AM
Got me thinking about another kilt, fella! Like muzzleloaders, can one have too many?
Post by: Puffer on April 11, 2011, 11:12:11 AM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/CopyofIMG_0240.jpg)
Jack
Post by: Puffer on April 11, 2011, 02:35:55 PM
Quote from: "Kermit"
So I'm wondering if, given the technology of the times, the knife-pleated kilt which used far more fabric, was an item of the more relatively wealthy, while the box-pleated was a more economical choice? Thanks for pointing out the side-by-side existence of the two types. If nothing else, it shows that a box-pleated kilt would certainly be an appropriate choice for a "re-enactor."
Got me thinking about another kilt, fella! Like muzzleloaders, can one have too many?
:Doh!
Jack
Post by: Kermit on April 11, 2011, 09:04:49 PM
I learned the "wearing of the kilt" from an old Scot, and he was RABID that most Americans wore them like their trousers--way too low. That applies to both the top and the bottom. He also went apoplectic seeing guys wearing the kilt with a regular suitcoat or sportcoat that was WAYWAY to long. He had me get measured to have the top edge ride a couple of inches above the navel and the bottom in NO CASE below the middle of the kneecap. On my second (dress) kilt, I had it tailored to the top of the kneecap. Gets the ladies attention when dancing! :th dn
I see "Utilikilts" as an abomination, but maybe it's a start?
I've loved seeing the young lads in Scotland in kilts. They wear 'em with whatever else they want. DocMartins boots to sandals, sweaters to tank tops. But always the tartan kilt. Modern kilt wearing seems almost a free-for-all there, EXCEPT for the tailoring and the fit. Still very traditional.
Post by: Puffer on April 11, 2011, 11:44:24 PM
Quote from: "Kermit"
Interesting--at least to the two of us! So when you talk of the top of the waistband being higher, where does the top land on you, anatomically? Bottom of the ribcage?
I learned the "wearing of the kilt" from an old Scot, and he was RABID that most Americans wore them like their trousers--way too low. That applies to both the top and the bottom. He also went apoplectic seeing guys wearing the kilt with a regular suitcoat or sportcoat that was WAYWAY to long. He had me get measured to have the top edge ride a couple of inches above the navel and the bottom in NO CASE below the middle of the kneecap. On my second (dress) kilt, I had it tailored to the top of the kneecap. Gets the ladies attention when dancing! :th dn
I see "Utilikilts" as an abomination, but maybe it's a start? :shock:
I like Your "old Scot."
BTW, if you want a Kilt that REALLY sways ( walking or other ) then get a Military Box pleat. I own 2 & trust me they are great ( they hang more even than "knives" & "sway == on both sides 8)
The "kids" , hey this "old man" wears as Attire" ergo, my top garb is out of my closet most often. ( no Ts, but hoodies,sweaters,team jackets etc. etc.)
what I mean
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/looks/22554_1088636873114_1742236523_163787_5114460_n.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/looks/Untitled-100-3.jpg) (LSR) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/looks/Untitled-1-6.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/looks/CopyofDSCN0294.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/looks/Untitled-1-1.jpg)
Jack
Post by: Kermit on April 12, 2011, 01:14:55 AM
Also impressed with your photos. Thanks. Proof positive that the kilt is a most versatile garment. With a Mariners jacket at a baseball game? YES!
BTW, I like that solid. What's the fabric?
We need to continue this discussion over ale(s) sometime. Or a bottle of haggis gravy.
Post by: Riley/MN on April 12, 2011, 10:57:55 AM
(okay, I am happy anyway - 23 more lbs would make me happier!)
I don't think suspenders would look right....
Post by: Kermit on April 12, 2011, 11:21:45 AM
Post by: Puffer on April 12, 2011, 11:46:16 AM
Quote from: "Kermit"
I seem to recall that military box pleats command an extra $200 or so to make--if you can find the maker who has the skill. And you have two? I'm impressed.
Also impressed with your photos. Thanks. Proof positive that the kilt is a most versatile garment. With a Mariners jacket at a baseball game? YES!
BTW, I like that solid. What's the fabric?
We need to continue this discussion over ale(s) sometime. Or a bottle of haggis gravy. :walk
Jack
Post by: Puffer on April 12, 2011, 01:33:41 PM
Quote from: "Riley/MN"
Is there any decent way to "take in" a kilt? I'm down 42lbs and continuing... (23 more & I'll be happy)
(okay, I am happy anyway - 23 more lbs would make me happier!)
I don't think suspenders would look right....
BTW, "suspenders" are CORRECT.( you hide them under the vest, jacket sweater.) HC & current
But as to "refitting the kilt properly, Kermit is correct = best done by a Good kilt maker.
Post by: Kermit on April 13, 2011, 10:32:45 AM
http://www.tartansauthority.com/tartan-ferret (http://www.tartansauthority.com/tartan-ferret)