Post by: Osprey on February 19, 2010, 08:15:56 AM
"Colebrook, New Hampshire- BlackMag Industries of Colebrook, New Hampshire, makers of BlackMagXP muzzleloader propellant, a proven blackpowder replacement propellant, has introduced a new product to their powder line.
Called "FLASH," the new powder is the first blackpowder replacement specifically designed for the flash pan in flintlock muzzleloaders. Like BlackMag XP, "Flash" is non-hygroscopic, is moisture resistant and is actually recoverable after exposure to moisture, has a low ignition temperature to ensure faster, sure-fire ignitions and is non-fouling, is non corrosive, non-toxic and biodegradeable. The granulation size of "Flash," 40 to 50 microns in size, is comparable to FFFG blackpowder and is designed to optimize ignition in both old and new style flintlock flash pans with varying flash hole sizes. "Flash" is designed solely as a priming powder in flintlock muzzleloaders, and should not be used in the bore as a primary charge.
"We realize in today's muzzleloading market the number of flintlocks used is comparatively small," says Craig Sanborn, President and CEO of BlackMag Industries. "But it is an important and dedicated fraternity, and with blackpowder becoming increasingly difficult to find we wanted to provide a reliable and viable alternative."
The new "Flash" powder will be packaged in convenient 150-grain, waterproof speed loaders designed for field application.
For more information both dealers and consumers are invited to contact BlackMag Industries directly or visit the company's web site at http://www.BlackMagPowder.com (http://www.BlackMagPowder.com). "
Post by: Mike R on February 19, 2010, 08:30:19 AM
Post by: biliff on February 19, 2010, 11:12:36 AM
Post by: Gordon H.Kemp on February 19, 2010, 11:44:26 AM
Post by: Trois Castors on February 19, 2010, 12:12:48 PM
Quote from: "biliff"
The price worked out to over $400 a lb......Do you use less of this"stuff"by volume than BP and supposedly
get the same results?
Post by: biliff on February 19, 2010, 12:28:45 PM
Quote from: "Trois Castors"
Quote from: "biliff"The price worked out to over $400 a lb......Do you use less of this"stuff"by volume than BP and supposedly
get the same results?
Don't know. It would have to be an awful lot less to even out, though. Even at 1 grain per pan charge, you're still talking 6 cents a shot just for prime.
Post by: followed by on February 19, 2010, 12:50:57 PM
Post by: Gordon H.Kemp on February 19, 2010, 02:05:43 PM
when they first started marketing the pills it seems they had a small amount of real BP in the center.
Post by: Mike R on February 19, 2010, 02:38:17 PM
Post by: biliff on February 19, 2010, 04:09:39 PM
They're selling the priming powder at $8.95 for 150 grains per container. That's 46.66 containers to make one pound X $8.95 per container = $420/lb. Yeah, it comes in its own handy plastic tube but still.....
Post by: Mike R on February 19, 2010, 04:25:03 PM
Quote from: "biliff"
I'm talking about the flash pan powder not the main charge powder (which is what I think you're referencing at $40/lb).
They're selling the priming powder at $8.95 for 150 grains per container. That's 46.66 containers to make one pound X $8.95 per container = $420/lb. Yeah, it comes in its own handy plastic tube but still.....
OK, they are gouging you for the container--which I understand is the dispenser too--that is, it is its own priming device--of course being plastic it would not work too well for pre-1840 events...and priming powder lasts a long time--a pound would take me at least a long time to use up [say 3 gr per charge, 2333 shots per pound]. I have been working on using up a tiny plastic pill bottle sized ffffg amount for a long time now--a gift from a buddy who has cans of the stuff....
Post by: Uncle Russ on February 19, 2010, 08:38:24 PM
Here's why I feel that way...........
I was talking to two guys just before Christmas that have owned muzzleloaders for the past ten or eleven years, according to them, and both of them were surprised that I actually use real black powder....I guess surprised is not the right word, amazed is closer to the truth. Actually, they were totally amazed that real black powder even existed!!
Both of these young men (mid thirties) are from this area, and both of them thought that real black powder was a thing of the past....since they both hunt "once ever two or three years" with their muzzleloaders, they were told by "the guy behind the counter" that Pyrodex was all that was available and performed much better than that old fashioned black powder stuff....they took his word for it, bought a couple cans each, and never questioned him or anyone else.
The reason I mention this is because I got to wondering just how many more are in the same boat. They got their muzzleloaders so they could extend their hunting season, which was true about ten years ago, but that is a thing of the past.
Real black powder is from hard to almost impossible for some folks to come by, without driving a couple of hundred miles and most folks are just not up to that kind of thing.
Many of us have enough powder, real black powder, to last us for many years.
Others, like the two guys I mentioned, never really get into muzzleloading because the performance of their guns with the "powder" they have been talked into buying gives less than sterling results, so they never develop the guns full potential, and quickly loose interest....that guy behind the counter, especially in our large chain stores, can often do more harm than good, simply because he / she has no clue.
See where I'm going with this?
If there is actually a product on the market that will help the faux powders perform even marginally better, I am all for it.
I feel fairly sure that my grandkids will not have real black powder avaible to them twenty years from now, seeing the way things are today.
Keep us posted on this product, it may be a God send, albeit in wolf's clothing because it is not "real", but it just may help in some small way to keep the sport alive.
Still yet, at the prices I'm seeing....no matter what the merits, it will never receive wide acceptance untill technology and competition brings that price down.
Sorry I got long winded, but some things seem to need a little more talkin than others.
Uncle Russ...
Post by: Kermit on February 19, 2010, 10:07:55 PM
Can't see any good reason to stop using the "real thing" until it's absolutely prohibitive. What's that? I can see paying $50/lb for black, even on my slim retirement income. BUT DON'T TELL GOEX!!!
And as for availability, you can still order it shipped in, no?
Maybe I should order up some more...
Post by: Longhunter on February 19, 2010, 11:21:03 PM
Post by: Gordon H.Kemp on February 20, 2010, 12:02:33 AM
I'm certain there are others here that remember when a person could buy from a few sticks to a case of no#40 dynomite at the area farm supply with very little paper work involved. No one then thought the day would come when , you would have to pass a security check, and have to attend classes and buy a license with large amounts of forms to fill out , But IT HAPPENED!
I think bp will go out the same way. So I would agree with Russ that it may be a God send if this sub. will really work as claimed and function in Flinters. I just hope they can through a handfull of sulphur in some for us old farts.
Post by: Longhunter on February 20, 2010, 12:32:10 AM
Quote
I can envision the day when real bp sales to private individuals will be prohibited .
That's why I'm stockin up...
Post by: snake eyes on February 20, 2010, 07:17:23 AM
Quote from: "Longhunter"
QuoteI can envision the day when real bp sales to private individuals will be prohibited .
That's why I'm stockin up... ;)
Post by: flintlock62 on February 20, 2010, 10:09:00 AM
It is ascorbic acid based and is allegedly totally none corrosive.
Post by: Captchee on February 20, 2010, 10:31:50 AM
Ever one of these powder things is a gimmick and a play on words so as to make something legal that would other wise be illegal OR at the very least not appealing to those being marketed
Lets break this down into parts
Quote
the new powder is the first blackpowder replacement specifically designed for the flash pan in flintlock muzzleloaders
WOW that sounds great doesn’t it folks . However notice later on they contradict their words by stating the size is of 3F but it is not intended for use as a main charge .
Quote
The granulation size of "Flash," 40 to 50 microns in size, is comparable to FFFG blackpowder and is designed to optimize ignition in both old and new style flintlock flash pans with varying flash hole sizes. "Flash" is designed solely as a priming powder in flintlock muzzleloaders, and should not be used in the bore as a primary charge.
Now ask yourself just how that can be if it it’s a replacement ..
See what they are doing is playing a wording game . That word replacement is key . It has to be there
Lets go on
Quote
Like BlackMag XP, "Flash" is non-hygroscopic, is moisture resistant and is actually recoverable after exposure to moisture
Anyone else find this a contradiction ?
If the powder is “ non-hygroscopic” you should never have to worry about recovering it after exposure to Moisture . Also notice , they did not say WATER , but Moisture .
Quote
has a low ignition temperature to ensure faster, sure-fire ignitions and is non-fouling, is non corrosive, non-toxic and biodegradeable.
Why is it that BP is now classified as a class 1 explosive and these new synthetic powders are classified as propellants ? Mind you that classification is why for many folks BP is harder to get then any of the synthetics . It is also why you pay a hazemate fee . It is also why the Fed , as well as many States have place completely obscured restrictions .
Two real reasons
a) ignition temperature
b) rate of burn
So if the first part of their statement is actually true , then the powder has a lower ignition temp , equal to BP . And it also has a higher burn rate , equal to BP .
So now I ask you is it or is it not also then an explosive. Which will in turn make it just as hard and costly to get as BP . This classification is also what Goex was fighting not to long ago .
Simply put the re classification was for no other reason then fear or something people could make bombs with . But the simple mater of fact is that ANY of these synthetics when confined and ignited , will in turn produce the very same explosive result as BP
As to the non-fouling, non corrosive, non-toxic and biodegradable., part .
For the most part this again goes back to the first statement about being a replacement
. We have to understand a couple thing . BP by its nature is not that efficient . Basically when ignited , it converts around 50% of its weight , to gas thus producing pressure . The other 50% is just residue that’s either blow out of the barrel or stays in the barrel as fouling .
When these synthetic companies market their product . They have to say less fouling . The reason is , is that’s a major concern for a large % of the modern market . They simply don’t like cleaning .
But is the statement truthful ?
For the most part like with T7 and Pyro ,,,,, no its again a play on words .
Why because both those powders also only convert about 50% of there weight.
So how is it that they can claim they burn cleaner ?
Remember that “ replacement “ word . While they may be a close in the pressure the produce . Close in the fact that they can be measured by volume . They are not close in the actual weight of the powder . So in reality its cleaner because your using less powder by weight . Less powder means that even if the powder still only converts 50% of its weight . There is less to be left as fouling .
non corrosive, non-toxic and biodegradable ???
I have yet to see the non corrosive statements of any of these powders hold up . They simply are corrosive in a different way . Either by the chemical make up or by drawing moisture . Or by the break down of those chemicals as the powder ages .
Fi folks spend some time reading the modern folks experiences with many of these new powder . Something becomes apparent. The powders often times become less viable as they age . Sometimes producing nothing more then sparklers or a slow moving , burning marshmallow type of load .
This is why some of these products also carry an exasperation date .
Anyone ever seen an exasperation date on BP ?
This last part simply infuriates me
Quote
"We realize in today's muzzleloading market the number of flintlocks used is comparatively small," says Craig Sanborn, President and CEO of BlackMag Industries. "But it is an important and dedicated fraternity, and with blackpowder becoming increasingly difficult to find we wanted to provide a reliable and viable alternative."
Why ?
Because no company ,, again NO company is going to produce a product for a small section of their market base . If they do not feel they can get an adequate return on their investment.
It has NOTHING to do with being a important part of anything . It has to do with money .
So companies put out wording like this so people will get that worm fuzzy feeling and say ; AHHHH look what they are doing for us , how nice of them
But as is the case with most all these powder . It shows in the price .
BH 209 is one of the newest , for lack of a better description “ god powder “ that’s hit the market .
For those of you who are paying 20+ a lb for true black . BH209 going to set you back 35-40 a lb .
Why so much ?????
Same with this flash powder . If the companies above statement was true , why the high cost ?
Right now im paying 11.00 a lb for all grades of powder . That cannon ---4F. And I know for a fact that the person is still making 2.00 a lb on the powder
1 can of 4 F will last me around a year .
For the cost of 1 lb of this powder , I can buy 50 lbs of black powder .
But see folks despite that warm fuzzy feeling the company is trying to give you . The simple mater of fact is , this company is not marketing this product for you and I .
The are marketing for a modern market , who is willing to pay 25.00 for 12 conicals . 30-50 a lb for a lb of powder that will last them , sometimes times longer then they will own the rifle .
So while some of us may say “ its about time “ I have to ask , about time for what ? For the very same sickness of greed , that’s infected the modern muzzle loading sport , to effect the traditional side ?
Lets talk about that for a second here .
One of the greatest things about traditional muzzle loading is that like Archery. For the person who is willing , there is nothing that cannot be made with your own two hands .
From every last part of the gun , right down to the projectiles and POWDER ..
The knowledge and ability is what is really being lost here
Why , because of the loss of self reliance .
Case in point . The resent run on ammunition.. Based around a fear of lack of ability to obtain that ammunition . Suddenly both the anti’s and the pro gun world realized that; HA we don’t have to take away the guns , all we have to do is get rid of or make the ammunition so costly that people cant afford it .
After all if you cant get shells . If you can reload what you have . That gun is nothing but a nice looking club suited for nothing but looking at .
There is no long any self-reliance left . You simply have to BUY what you need .
doesn’t mater if you’re a reloaded or not . You , HAVE TO BUY.
You now rely on someone or something that can be taken away . Simply put the ability to adapt has been removed without people even knowing it
Modern muzzle loading is moving that same way . The numbers of folks who can cast their own bullets is far smaller then the numbers of traditional shooters who do the same thing .
Not to mention the numbers of rifles that can be shot with basic simple loads is growing smaller and smaller . If you doubt that .
How many of you traditional cap lock shooters here , know how to make a Cap ?
Many of us that have been around muzzle loading for most of our lives remember a time when you folks did that . Then came the kits . Dixie used to market a set of field pliers and all the components to produce your own caps . . Long gone now isn’t it fellas
How many modern rifles , now being sold . Use the #11 cap ?.
For that mater how many of the modern powders now marketed will consistently ignite, using that cap .
The number is getting fewer and fewer each year .
But then we also have the lead banns coming on hard . This also will force folks to rely on companies to provide an alternative for projectiles at a greatly increased cost ..
Thank for one second what would happen id for some reason the modern movement found they possibly could not get powder and modern bullets ????
See the ability to be self sufficient has been slowly , without much notice , taken away from most of them . Thus without the ability to BUY . They , find themselves in the very same boat as the center fire folks .
They have to have caps , they have to have powder , they have to have the modern bullets that many of their rifles are now being built around
So while it may seem fantastic that a company is trying to market an alternate powder of the flintlock shooter . Myself I see that as nothing but a way to increase the reliance on the BUY . While at the same time the ability to increase costs to the shooter . Which over time will reduce the ability of the public to be self reliant.
There simply is no justification for these costs other then . If you think you have no choice , you will pay the cost or be removed from the mathematical equation .
IMO what we all should be doing is say ; WAIT why is it that companies can produce a product like this . That is no different then and existing , long lasting product . Yet not have to comply with the same restrictions that has made the older product hard to get ??????
We should be all standing up and saying LOOK eather define all these modern powders as also being explosives NOT propellants. OR reduce the classification of BP so that is once again can set right along side these modern powders , in the very same stores that sell them .
If we don’t demand that justification and support products such as this one .
Not only do we lose . But so do the generations of people yet to come .
Ok . Im don with my rant here . Sorry . I just had to get that off my chest
Be safe
Post by: Longhunter on February 20, 2010, 11:29:46 AM
Post by: Gordon H.Kemp on February 20, 2010, 01:03:41 PM
It's my opinion that , as the number of folks such as Russ , Longhunter , Captchee my self and others in the 60 and older group die off there are fewer and fewer strong advocates to keep the desire for individual freedoms alive . I have , as I'm sure many others here , become tired , and feel we are fighting a losing barrle ! The one shinning light is the young people who have caught the spark of the importance of the individual freedoms we have under the Constitution and Bill of Rights .
I feel that the salvation of these rights lies with thesr younger folks , If the momentum of the antis gain ground , and are not stopped . It's only a matter of time to the day we as a nation fall in line with England , Austrailia Germany and most of the other countrys of the wold . We as Americans will no longer be leaders in freedom , but followers into a society as discribed in George Orwells' book 1984 .
Post by: flintlock62 on February 20, 2010, 01:33:33 PM
Gordon, aint 60 yet , but close to it. Many young people do not understand if we lose the 2nd ammendment, we will be slowly striped of all the others.
Post by: Captchee on February 20, 2010, 03:00:05 PM
Post by: Trois Castors on February 20, 2010, 03:09:27 PM
Post by: Gordon H.Kemp on February 20, 2010, 03:23:02 PM
Post by: graybeard on February 20, 2010, 03:46:16 PM
Post by: AxelP on February 20, 2010, 03:59:38 PM
They are not trying to replace the old way---they are trying to preserve and protect the traditions we all cherish by offering a viable option. This is only a small part of their total business... they know well that they will not make any sort of great profit---they don't have to develop this new product---it is truly for the love of the sport that they are doing this.
I dont know much about this new powder sub at all... but....
So before you put the kabosh on some of these new products, I would maybe give them a phone call and talk a few minutes with the makers... Their marketing is always going to try to rope in the largest target audience-- that is what advertising is supposed to do---of course they want to sell to the modern Muzzleloader as well as the traditional--- thats just smart biz.
I doubt they are trying to replace blackpowder... they are simply trying to offer a substitute for those folks that cannot get or use BP for whatever reason. What would you rather do if you had to make the choice? stop doing what you love to do--completely? or adjust a bit and be able to still do the thing that makes your heart beat and put a smile on your face?
I live in the California Condor lead ban area... this means that I am facing this very kind of choice---right now. And from what I read, there are areas all over the US (and the world) that are on the edge of this cliff. Fight for the right to keep blackpowder and lead!!!... but also be practical and look and cultivate the options so you can still do what you love if the worst happens...
Ken
Post by: Captchee on February 20, 2010, 04:09:15 PM
i used to have a small set of pliers that was kinda like a hole punch ..
The first kit I had punched out a little 4 leaf clover . You folded the edges up and then placed a drop of fulminate on a dot of paper . Then place that into the cap .
but like making powder , it became something that was to dangerous . and if frankly it could be very dangerous. But we also used to ride our Bicycles without helmets. Slept in homes that were painted with lead base paint and god forbid , played with actual fireworks on the Forth of July
Then they came out with a set that was all in one . . You simply punched the complete cap out of a sheet .
But basically this was like making caps for a cap gun . Its still marked though not very popular . Its called a tap -o cap . A quick search and I see its still available . Here is a link to brownells
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=842064
and why is it AxelP that these older products are so hard to get ????
if you make a product that is a replacment for BP , koodo to you .
but i ask you . if it looks like a duck , acts like a duck , flies like a duck . should it not be treated as a duck ?
so if a product is does the same thing as BP . has the same ignition temp and produces the same pressures . should it not then have the very same restrictions as BP ?
if not why ????
lets say your product does all the above . why should it be outside the restrictions and easy to get . ?
Post by: AxelP on February 20, 2010, 04:46:47 PM
Post by: Captchee on February 20, 2010, 05:11:59 PM
BP does what it does because of its make up .
A replacement , when placed in those conditions , must do the very same thing or as you say close to it .
So how close is acceptable ?
Is the powder to be high enough in ignition temperature that you need a modern rifle cap to set it of ?
OK I can accept that . But we also must accept that at some point , its no longer true to any real base .
If we are not supporting that base then what are we supporting ,,, shooting ?
Again , I can accept that . But as we move farther and farther away from that original base . More and more of it is lost . More and more of the understanding is lost . More and more of the true history is lost . more and more of peoples aboility to be self reliant is lost . thus the day may come when that powder for what ever reason is also no longer avalable .
maybe someone deems it unsafe . now what ? you wait for so me one to sell you something new ? or you simple do without . proclaiming that what you loved is now dead from no fault of our own .
when in reality its all our fault
Sure we can say ; But we are still shooting .
Here is a comparison for you . How many people know how to start a fire with either flint and steel or with a wood bow ?
In the last few years I have been greatly surprised at the numbers of muzzle loading folks , I come across who never have done either. They know it can be done . That it was once done . But they have never attempted it or know how .
Why is that ? Basically because an easier more convenient way was marketed . Thus the old way and old knowledge for many , is simply lost . For those people , I honestly think they would set in the cold an freeze to death for want of a fire . Even if you laid the needed tools within their view .
Top that off with a fear of that knowledge .
A couple years back I and some friends were ask to put on a class for a local school .
I did the fire starting and showed both processes .
After the first class went through , the district supernatant came to me and said to drop the fire starting instruction . .
He stated that they felt it was hard enough to teach kids not to play with matches , without having them running around trying to get rocks to spark or sticks to glow .
To say I was simply dumb founded would be an understatement.
Talk to Black smiths who have put on demonstrations. You just might be surprised at the number of them who have stories about even adults who stick their hands into the coals claiming its fake .
Both the above case are based on the same thing . Something new came along and the knowledge of old , was lost .
don’t get me wrong , im not against the new . I just think that if the new is going to be so close to the original , then it should be treated just like the original .
Again BP has become had to get because its classified as an explosive.
If this new powder is so easily ignighted that it will go off from the sparks of a flintlock . If its ignition creates a burn fast enough to propel hot gas and flame into the touch hole . Mind you hot enough to even set of modern synthetics . Which many times even Priming a pan with BP will not do if the main charge is a synthetic .
Then why is this new powder also not classified as an explosive and just as hard to get as BP is claimed to be , by many ??
A duck called by any other name is still a duck .
But if you call a dog a duck long enough . People forget what a duck really looks like
if this powder is sold openly and freely without restrictions . then so should true BP
Post by: Gordon H.Kemp on February 20, 2010, 06:26:54 PM
There are entire companys that do nothing but sell their services of developeing a promotional campain for manufacturs and venders . , most of the individual have no idea of the new product and many don't care as long as the campain sells the product. Much of the time the slogans and quips used is based on half truths and evasive double talk . most of these adversing fims have big time law firms on retainers in case they are caught in a statment that could be construed to be beyond truth .
I would have to agree 100% with Captchee on His assesment , that if the substitute chemicals have the low ignition tempeture of black powder , WHY is exempt from the same restriction imposed on BP?
Post by: AxelP on February 20, 2010, 09:04:20 PM
I have worked in advertising for 25 years. There is no conspiracy... There is no big law firm backing up my ad agency, believe me. We are simply creative people helping other people sell products. Ad agencies are not responsible for a product being good or bad or even phony... the maker is. I have never worked on a project or a client that was ever found to be a fraud... I am sure they both exist and that is the way of the world... I just do not think they are hiding behind every tree.
Ken
Post by: Ironwood on February 20, 2010, 09:12:28 PM
Gene
Post by: bluelake on February 20, 2010, 09:47:04 PM
Post by: Captchee on February 20, 2010, 11:51:32 PM
we will have to agree to disagree .
i have had my say . i simply cant say anymore that i have not already said .
Post by: faithtreker on February 28, 2010, 05:59:27 AM
Post by: Kermit on February 28, 2010, 02:53:28 PM
First Responder friends of mine say they are well aware of the number of folk who rathole/store/stash various powders and ammo, and are just hoping they never have to fight fire where that's the case. Heck, I don't even store most of my flammables in the house or garage. Powder is stored in an outbuilding safely and well away from the house. Not everyone who has explosives or "propellants" is fortunate to have a set up like many of us have. It's not necessarily "antis" who are after powder storage, it's cops and firefighters as well. I know a good number of 'em. We have a responsibility, as well as a dog in the fight.
I'm still trying to figure out what I'm willing to support to keep first responders safe, as well as to keep BP out of the hands of idiots. We seem to have more and more of those--of various kinds. Tough balance to maintain.
I'm curious what restrictions other countries may put on BP and propellants. Canada, GBritain, Germany?