Traditional Muzzleloading Association
Craftsmanship => Gun Building and Repair => Topic started by: RobD on October 24, 2021, 07:12:22 AM
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So, of course I bought yet another offshore "screwdriver" rifle kit. I guess I'll never learn. :Doh!
This time it's an Investarms "Gemmer Hawken" flinter in .50 bore, 32" tube, 1:60 rifling, so it's essentially a patched ball gun. First thing I did was sell the supplied flint lock and order out an L&R RPL-05 flint lock. Waiting for the new lock to arrive so I can fit it in as there's usually some tweaking to the inlet involved, and then the considerably proud stock wood rasping and sanding can begin. A friend sent me a Lee .490 mold and I ran some balls, just to have on hand, and make a ball board.
I was thinking of sending off the barrel to Bobby Hoyt for a ream to .54 but I'll hold off on that 'til the gun's completed as I'm interested to see how it (and me) will perform at longer distances as far out as 300 yards with patched ball.
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Rob I'm sure it will be a winner when you're done.
Good luck, have fun.
Kevin
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Be interesting to hear if there's much difference (if any) between the Gemmer and the Lyman GPR. Looking forward to your review! :bl th up
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Be interesting to hear if there's much difference (if any) between the Gemmer and the Lyman GPR. Looking forward to your review! :bl th up
Don't see a difference other than price. For the .50s, both are 1:60 twist and 32" barrels ... if anything the GPR has brass furniture and the GH is steel.
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That's interesting Rob.
Both my Lyman GPR's have steel furniture. One is 16 years old (.50 cal flintlock), and the other is 5 or 6 years old (.54 percussion lock).
I know I purchased them as advertised (both were kits); Lyman Great Plains Rifle. I guess mine lean more to the Gemmer side.
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That's interesting Rob.
Both my Lyman GPR's have steel furniture. One is 16 years old (.50 cal flintlock), and the other is 5 or 6 years old (.54 percussion lock).
I know I purchased them as advertised (both were kits); Lyman Great Plains Rifle. I guess mine lean more to the Gemmer side.
The naming conventions used for lots of offshore guns is almost laughable as none, not even the Hawkens, are true replicas. Close in some cases, but not close enough. It's all good, they all sorta kinda look the part, if'n even that matters. 8) :shake
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That's interesting Rob.
Both my Lyman GPR's have steel furniture. One is 16 years old (.50 cal flintlock), and the other is 5 or 6 years old (.54 percussion lock).
I know I purchased them as advertised (both were kits); Lyman Great Plains Rifle. I guess mine lean more to the Gemmer side.
The naming conventions used for lots of offshore guns is almost laughable as none, not even the Hawkens, are true replicas. Close in some cases, but not close enough. It's all good, they all sorta kinda look the part, if'n even that matters. 8) :shake
Agree completely.
It would seem that the early Lyman "Plains" Rifles (with the 28" barrel) had brass furniture (to include a brass patch box, nose cap, and butt-plate). Seems when they went to the 32" barreled "Great Plains" rifle (what we know today as the Lyman Great Plains Rifle) - they dumped the patch box, and probably just went all steel furniture with the rest.
Regardless, it has been one popular rifle for sure! :bl th up
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The build continues ...
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Lock is almost fitted to the stock inlet, a bit more wood relief needed here and there.
Bbl wouldn't fit the stock channel as the forward wedge escutcheon stock inlet needed a bunch of relieving,
Two of the screws to attach the ramrod thimble tray are buggered, need to take a good one to the local hardware store to verify the metric thread for some new ones.
And that's it for today.
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Th e L&R RPL05 replacement lock needs lotsa reworking of the inlet, but this ain't my first rodeo with these locks and true to form it took a buncha chiseling with a bit of sanding to get the bugger to fit well. Next up is to remove the bbl, lock, trigger guard, trigger assembly, and begin to take down the proud walnut stock wood - there's a LOT!
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I'm somewhat surprised it's actually real walnut.
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I'm somewhat surprised it's actually real walnut.
"European walnut" so the description sez. Hard as a rock and Heavy.
EUROPEAN WALNUT WOOD
The species is Juglans regia, or Royal Walnut, and is one of the most admired hardwoods of all time. Many of the finest antiques were made from French Walnut. The heartwood color ranges from medium brown, to tan, to orange and can contain black spider web streaks or vein noir.
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Did you carve out the lock panel, or is that how it came from the factory? It looks like you need to take lots of wood off the wrist, well, like you said, all over. I just looked at the forearm cap and it seems to be a lot smaller than the wood behind it. Are you going to take the perch belly out also?
Another question: what are you using for inletting black? What I have is probably 50 years old and in powder form. It makes a big mess and doesn't seem to transfer very well.
The fit of lock looks good. I'm looking forward to seeing your further progress!
~Kees~
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Did you carve out the lock panel, or is that how it came from the factory? It looks like you need to take lots of wood off the wrist, well, like you said, all over. I just looked at the forearm cap and it seems to be a lot smaller than the wood behind it. Are you going to take the perch belly out also?
Another question: what are you using for inletting black? What I have is probably 50 years old and in powder form. It makes a big mess and doesn't seem to transfer very well.
The fit of lock looks good. I'm looking forward to seeing your further progress!
~Kees~
Yes, there is an enormous amount of wood removal to be accomplished. The perch belly will remain - I like that look. I use Permatex Prussian Blue inlet dye.
The lock panel is already inlet for the supplied stock flint lock and fits reasonably well. I sold off that lock and I'm using an L&R RPL05 replacement lock that's of much better geometry and quality. This lock requires a fair amount of wood removal in order to achieve a good fit to both the stock and barrel. I'm about 95% there and need to remove about 1/64" from the perimeter of the inlet so that the lock plate will kiss the barrel for a tight fit. Also, the hole that accepts the lock sear arm needs to be enlarged at its top to allow the trigger to trip the sear.
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Being another shooter who does not like patent breeches I've always tried to avoid them. But that's hard to do with imported rifles. I will admit, however, that I've never had a patent breech caused me a bit of trouble. I have a rifle with a patent breech I bought years ago (percussion) and love it. It's mine and a keeper. But I still don't like a PB!
Just think of that kit as a "blank slate" and yourself as the artist. I think you'll end up with a masterpiece.
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Kind 'a the same with me, Hanshi.
I'm not a fan of the patent breech either, but I've not really experienced many issues with it all. It may be because I live in a climate where we really don't have a lot of humidity here in NW Nebraska.
It does seem to me that, many - many - many years ago when I lived in NW Ohio (where the humidity was always high), I did have some trouble with the patent breech, things like hang fires, cap going off but not igniting the charge (that could of been the caps), but out here I've not experience that at all (that I can recall). I do have a .50 caliber Lyman GPR - Flintlock, (and other flintlock rifles) and I can't recall having any problems with ignition out here with them.
Again, I'm kind 'a convinced that the troubles are more related to humidity after some shots in humid area's - but I wouldn't swear to it. :shake
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I have been shooting rifles with patent breeches for what, maybe 50 years now. Many Thompson Centers, Lymans, customs, etc. Percussion rifles and flintlocks. I have shot in every kind of weather, from hot and dry as Hades, to high humidity (think Friendship, IN), to sub freezing and snow in North Idaho, in the rain and when it was snowing, and have never experienced any troubles with the PB.
I think the main problem is due more to the loose nut behind the butt plate than any other cause. If you don't wipe out the barrel and pop a couple of caps prior to first loading, you are just asking for mis-fires and hang fires. And that's just how it is.
John (Bigsmoke)
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The problem I have with PBs is that their flues are smaller bores than the big main bore itself. So when ya stick that big ol' patched jag down the tube for the first time - don't matter whether it's wet, damp, or dry - yer pushing BP residue into the PB flue.
Depending on a number of factors with the gun, the load, the shooting climate, that might not be an issue, or maybe it could be a real PITA problem. Thing is, with a classic flat faced breech plug, it's almost never ever a problem. So like it or not, those offshore PBs will introduce issues and/or problems that are not present with classic inshore plugs.
I've messed around with different jag modifications to avoid having to use a separate brushed rod for cleaning the PB flue after cleaning the main bore, but no cigar so far.
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I'd agree there's a whole lot to that Rob.
IMHO (regarding percussion ignition & I know we all have our own idea's about this), anytime a person has to fire a cap to clear out that channel that leads to the main charge after every shot to assure the second load will ignite, this is not a good setup.
I don't disagree that the target shooters go beyond fouling control during competition (heck when living in Ohio, and was a member of Shawnee Long Rifles, I did as well). I knew that my load cycle was going to consist of using two caps with each shot (1 to clear the ignition channel - and one to set off the next charge). Granted, back then - caps were a whole lot cheaper - but now they're quite expensive. But, humidity is not a friend to black powder shooting once that black powder has become "fouling" after your first shot, and following shots.
IMHO, and you have to find what works for you (shot to shot) to control that humidity that does show up in you load chain with those patent breeches.
Just my opinion from what I've experienced. And with the above said, that same type of fouling shows up in patent breech flintlocks. :shake
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I'd agree there's a whole lot to that Rob.
IMHO (regarding percussion ignition & I know we all have our own idea's about this), anytime a person has to fire a cap to clear out that channel that leads to the main charge after every shot to assure the second load will ignite, this is not a good setup.
I don't disagree that the target shooters go beyond fouling control during competition (heck when living in Ohio, and was a member of Shawnee Long Rifles, I did as well). I knew that my load cycle was going to consist of using two caps with each shot (1 to clear the ignition channel - and one to set off the next charge). Granted, back then - caps were a whole lot cheaper - but now they're quite expensive. But, humidity is not a friend to black powder shooting once that black powder has become "fouling" after your first shot, and following shots.
IMHO, and you have to find what works for you (shot to shot) to control that humidity that does show up in you load chain with those patent breeches.
Just my opinion from what I've experienced. And with the above said, that same type of fouling shows up in patent breech flintlocks. :shake
I think yer spot on, Joe. :bl th up
From the limited cap rifles I've owned, worked on, and shot, I think they can be a bit more problematic than flint.
With flint, the ignition channel is right there and linear direct, from spark to pan to touch hole to chamber powder. Much easier to clean out, too.
Cap bolsters and nipples have that dogleg to encounter for the heat of the popped cap to reach the chamber powder. Also, while nipples are relatively and easy removal, not so easy to do a thorough clean out as well if the snail needs to be removed. Add in a PB and boy can that be an added hassle!
Between the added need for an additional special part of ignition (caps) and their expense, these are part of the reason why I gravitate towards the flint ignition.
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I am sorry, I just do not understand what your problem is.
As I have outlined above, I have shot in most every conceivable weather condition, from high humidity to dry as a bone, from stifling high temperatures to well below zero and from the east coast to the west coast. I have shot with factory guns to custom guns, and with Patent breeches to flat breeches. I never have had ignition problems. And I am talking percussion guns here, not flinters.
So, what is the secret to this success? I don't think it is using .22 caliber brushes to clean the breech. I don't think it is using funny little scrapers to clean the breech. I don't think it is any of those ideas, because I have never felt the need to use them. In my life, I have probably shot in excess of my body weight in black powder, and that would be 1,575,000 grains of the stuff. I think the secret is that I never clean the rifle by just running a wet patch up and down in the barrel. It seems to me that would just push fouling into the breech. I always flush the barrel and ignition chamber with Ol' Thunder Bore Solvent by removing the barrel from the stock and immerse the breech into a soup can full of the solvent and flush the barrel by running a patched cleaning jag up and down in the barrel. I use three patches, typically. One to clean the barrel, another to dry it out and a third to lubricate the barrel with Just Good Lube. Fast, easy and economical. From initial teardown to final re-assembly, it is faster than a person can smoke a cigarette.
Then when it is time to shoot again, I simply run a dry patch down the barrel to wipe out any oil lingering there and pop a cap or two to make sure the ignition passage is clear. Presto, we are shooting again. Nothing to it.
I will confess that I have had hangfires on occasion in the past. But I attribute that to the fact I was testing some big bore rifles with Pyrodex powder. ;banghead; ;banghead; And the situation cleared up as soon as I switched back to black powder. :applaud
But, all this is just my experience. I cannot speak to what you are doing or the results you are getting.
(Joe, I have never heard of popping a cap to clear the chamber prior to loading each shot. Seems excessive to me.)
John (Bigsmoke)
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(Joe, I have never heard of popping a cap to clear the chamber prior to loading each shot. Seems excessive to me.)
Well, that's what we did back in that high Ohio humidity, and it worked. :shake
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I have owned and used at least half a dozen or more guns with patent breeches without any problem from that type of setup; but I still don't like them. For me it just adds another complexity to a simple device. Long ago I really never thought much about it. But now I'm old and grouchy and that likely has something to do with it; plus I have grown more picky. IMHO a patent breech is a debatable solution in search of a nonexistent problem.
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I have owned and used at least half a dozen or more guns with patent breeches without any problem from that type of setup; but I still don't like them. For me it just adds another complexity to a simple device. Long ago I really never thought much about it. But now I'm old and grouchy and that likely has something to do with it; plus I have grown more picky. IMHO a patent breech is a debatable solution in search of a nonexistent problem.
Aside from definitely having fouling control issues with PBs, I totally agree! :shake :bl th up :bl th up
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Remember, this Nipple Primer came about for some reasons.
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/4/1/PRIMER-B
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Remember, this Nipple Primer came about for some reasons.
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/4/1/PRIMER-B
:yessir: - sure takes a buncha "stuff" to make cap guns go "POP!" :bigsmile:
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Remember, this Nipple Primer came about for some reasons.
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/4/1/PRIMER-B
:yessir: - sure takes a buncha "stuff" to make cap guns go "POP!" :bigsmile:
At times, yes. :o
I'll also mention that all caps are not equal to their task. Personally for my cap guns there are only two that I found to be dependable; #1 RWS No. 1075 plus - (the most dependable) & the CCI's were/are good caps for dependable ignition... IMHO all the rest came in 2nd or lower. :shake
And,,, I may catch a bit of guff over this, but I truly believe that a good flintlock Lock, is the most dependable ignition system when it's straight into the rear side of the charge. :bl th up
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I've never been "into" percussion guns mostly 'cause I'm more into the 18th century era and I appreciate the deadly simplicity of flint lock ignitions. Basically, all I need is powder, flint, lead, and I'm good to go. However, I do appreciate the beauty of a fine percussion gun.
Bottom line to me is that all traditional muzzleloaders, regardless of their ignition system, are works of art in their own way, and I appreciate them all ...
... just let mine be a rock lock, thank you! 8)
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What Rob said! :yessir: :yessir: :yessir:
Except I don't lean so hard towards the flint side. :bigsmile:
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This is fourth RPL05 I've installed on Investarms Hawken style rifles. There's quite a bit of wood to remove for the L&R RPL05 lock to properly fit into an Investarms stock. I used Prussian blue brushed on the lock to spot most of the areas that required Dremel use, chisel work, scraping, and abrasive paper. The last step is to insure that the lock plate fits tight to the barrel, so that there will be no space for ignition BP residue to readily migrate into the innards of the lock mechanism. This is done by lightly scraping all around the mortise edges to lower the plate in the stock wood, and end up kissing the barrel.
While the supplied DST is adequate, the L&R T5 DST is *SO* much better in every way. So I ordered one as well. It will require shortening the the back end and grinding in a step to the front end so that the trigger guard will properly fit. The T5 offers excellent trigger adjustments whilst the stock Investarms DST offers pretty much no adjustment - it has a firing trigger travel screw that makes no sense since it can't be adjusted ... never could figure out why they even bothered adding in that screw. Don't get me wrong, the Investarms trigger works fine as is, it's just not all that adjustable and what you see is what you get. It's worth it for me to spend $60 on the far better trigger.
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Looking good there, Rob! I may have to get one of those triggers myself for the Hodgepodge rifle. Incidentally, the Lyman GPRs I have had both had issues with the trigger adjustment screw; the "fix" is to get a longer one. It's a metric thread, and I don't remember where I got mine but you might try that next time.
~Kees~
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It's a wonderful DST, high quality in terms of materials, build, and function, Both the set and fire trigger adjustments are smooth and easy. In comparison, the supplied Investarms trigger adjustments are almost nil and both set and fire screws are near frozen in the cast metal DST frame.
The L&R T5 DST does take a fair amount of fitting work that will at least require bobbing its tail for about 1/2" or so, rounding it off with files, and drilling a 1/8" hole in what's left of that end for the wood screw to secure it to the stock. I've got it in the stock now, held in by the trigger guard, and the DST is quite smooth and the set let off is just about a pound or less for the L&R RPL05 lock that's been stoned and oiled. What's up next is to do a bit more inlet work for the DST body and grind in a slight shelf its front end to better slip under the front foot of the trigger guard. The trigger rout in the stock also needs to be plugged at its end so that I can drill a new hole for the new DST rear hold down screw.
This should be one fine half stock rifle when she's all done up purty ... well, 'cept for that damn patent breech :o ;D
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The DST mortise needed to filled and redrilled to accept the DST rear screw, so I shaped and glued in with epoxy a walnut filler. After curing, the filler required further adjusting with a sharp chisel. With the DST bobbed in the rear and 1/8" drilled for the hold-down screw, and the front end stepped down wind a grinder and file to accept the trigger guard's front shoe, it fits well into it's mortise. Next up is to remove the lock, trigger guard, DST, barrel, and shape the stock's proud walnut wood to meet the furniture using rasps files, abrasives and scrapers, then smooth it all out to 320 grit, apply a dark walnut stain, wick in water thin CYA to all areas that will be exposed to BP residue, then clear coat the stock with Tru-Oil. Getting there ...
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Wood staining done. I used my favorite brand, Laurel Mountain Forge, one wipe of walnut, another over that with nut brown, and a final wipe of walnut, overnight drying for each coat. I'll pull off the breach plug, butt and toe plates, and begin wiping on Tru-Oil. I also made new ramrods using TOTW hickory 3/8" rods, stained with LMF Colonial Maple and then Tru-Oiled - I added epoxied and pinned brass ferrules (try and find the pins - nope, ya can't!). I leave the ramming ends of the rods plain but I slightly concave them and wick in water thin CYA to harden. In fact, before clear coating the stock, I'll wick in CYA to the lock mortise, breach plug mortise, and the entire bbl channel - this super seals the wood against BP mitigation. I had some American walnut left over from a lap steel fretboard build that I turned into a ball board - love me them speed loader ball boards!
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Looking good! Tons better than the almost black stain which Lyman puts on. Nice RRs also! :toast
~Kees~
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While the progression of clear coats go on the stock, with a coat in the early morning and one in the late evening, time between is spent on the barrel.
After wrapping the ignition end of the barrel with tape to protect, I use special octagon clamping cauls to vise the barrel tight. A witness mark is scratched across the breech plug and barrel, to be used to realign the plug when it gets put back on. A special wrench "nut" is slipped over the breech plug and a large Reed Corp wrench does the unscrewing deed. Investarms plugs come off fairly easy with the right tools.
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There's always a lot of residue left after the manufacturer proofs the barrel ...
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Which gets cleaned out with the help of Ballistol for both the plug and barrel ...
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The touch hole line is screwed in and checked inside the patent breech flue - a bit of the end protrudes, it's removed and about 1/16" is filed off the end and is reinserted using Nikal anti-seize lube. The breech plug is screwed back onto the barrel after getting lubed with Nikal. All ready for firing once the gun is assembled.
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All new and way too shiny for a hunting gun, but it'll be easy to rub it down with 0000 steel wool and then buff with beeewax for a hunter matte finish, once the the finish fully cures in a few days. Other than that, got the lock timing down smooth and fast, very light trigger pull after the set trigger is pulled, so she's ready to load 'n' fire.
(https://i.imgur.com/C1YV73y.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/2GiVaCj.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/P4Rf5qY.jpg)
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All new and way too shiny for a hunting gun
Boy, howdy, it sure is all of that. Almost need sun glasses to look at it.
With the curve in the top ramrod, you would not ever need to worry about it falling out of the thimbles.
It sure looks like you did a great job on the rifle with the updates and all. Quite anxious to read all about the range trip. If it shoots half as good as it looks, you will have a shooter on your hands.
John (Bigsmoke)
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All new and way too shiny for a hunting gun
Boy, howdy, it sure is all of that. Almost need sun glasses to look at it.
With the curve in the top ramrod, you would not ever need to worry about it falling out of the thimbles.
It sure looks like you did a great job on the rifle with the updates and all. Quite anxious to read all about the range trip. If it shoots half as good as it looks, you will have a shooter on your hands.
John (Bigsmoke)
The "bent ramrod" is a 5/16" reclaimed from a .40 I once built, and used only for swabbing the patent breech flue - it's warp is of no consequence in that regard.
This gun won't be used for hunting by me, but none-the-less I don't like shiny gun stocks, so it'll get buffed out over the coming weekend. The bbl will be left as is, as I prefer. If it was for hunting, I'd vinegar patina it dull from the get-go rather than allow time to do its own relicing thing. The bbl has been "Lee Shaver-ized" with oiled patches and 0000 steel wool, and I haven't felt any tight or loose spots so far.
I am most pleased with what is more important that looks, the action and trigger. After setting the DST, the fire pull reads between 5 and 6 ounces on my Easton digital scale.
Range trip may not happen 'til next year, depending on the weather, of which I don't take kindly to much under 50F these dayze of my life.
Then again, it's patent breech gun, and I hate them damn things, maybe I'll just get rid of it. :o ::) 8)
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5 to 6 ounce trigger pull ... sweet DST trigger assembly, and the lock time is Fast.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScJ5wtjVy5Q
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Some folks have asked me why I swapped out the lock and trigger assembly.
The concept of "better" and "best" can be somewhat subjective, at the least. For me, the quality, durability, adjustability, and performance of both the L&R RPL05 lock and the T5 DST is "better" than those stock Investarms components. Are there issues or known problems with the Investarms lock and DST? IMHO, no - both will work well, but IMHO not as well as those L&R components.
Be advised that these L&R components are no where near "drop in". A fair amount of wood will be required to hog out in order to get the lock to properly fit.
Before ...
(https://i.imgur.com/XXujuhE.jpg)
After ...
(https://i.imgur.com/IAjRZcw.jpg)
The T5 DST will require its butt end to get bobbed by about 3/4" and a 1/8" hole drilled into it for the hold-down wood screw. Its front end will need to get a good 1/16" to 3/32" shelf cut/ground into it in order to allow the trigger guard to fit at least reasonably properly - I could have made that shelf deeper but felt it wasn't all that necessary, didn't want to perhaps weaken that part of the DST, and having the front end of the trigger guard be proud of the stock wood wasn't a deal breaker (for me).
DST comparisons ...
(https://i.imgur.com/ggZJoHR.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/K7Eo7vc.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/D3ycrpV.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/92ZL3mD.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/oEZQ30D.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/bUqly1N.jpg)
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Nice job! Want my opinion? No! Well I'll give it anyway. That would make a nice rifle just to "have around" and that doesn't need to be "babied". If it shoots really well then maybe keep it, There's always a place for a fine shooting rifle.
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Tom, yer comments are always welcome by me, Sir! :bl th up
I may just keep the gun, gotta see 'cause I've got another flinter coming in a week or so, a gen-u-wine oldie (and hopefully goodie) Turner Kirkland in .45 bore ...
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Congrats Rob, on shopping victoriously. I have been kinda looking at that on the ALR site. Nice rifle. Doesn't look like it has been used all that much.
I recollect back in the mid 1970's I got my first flinter rifle, it was another Dixie gun, also from Belgium. It was a shooter, for sure. But like a fool, I sold it, one of many that went the way of the trade table. Sure wish I would have kept that gun.
Be interesting to find out how this one shoots.
John (Bigsmoke)
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:hairy That's plumb lovely! Nice crisp edges to the lock panels too. We'll need a full range report after you get it, of course.
~Kees~