Traditional Muzzleloading Association
Traditional Firearms => Flintlock Long Guns => Topic started by: wadedog on January 14, 2009, 08:42:56 AM
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What year is the roman nose type butt of rifles first made or maybe i should say more common or period correct.
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I'd add that perhaps a more distinguishing aspect of the longrifle to determine its apropriate time period, would be the width and shape of the buttplate, the style of lock, the caliber and patchbox style...
Axe
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I agree with Wtosmith & AxelP, more information would be needed to approximate an age or time period.
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As wyosmith says this subject can be a can of worms, I live in Berks County Pa and I have listened to many debates on these rifles. Joe kindig and Henry Kauffman feel that the Golden Era of Gun Making in Pennsylvania is between 1775 and 1830. The suggestion of the Roman nose started in Berks county prior to this time. During the the Golden age the Roman Nose became the most significant identifying feature of rifles made in the Berks County area. As was stated by AxelP there are the other identifying features which must be looked at. A very good source of information on the Roman nose stock is Henry J. Kauffmans book The Pennsylvania Kentucky Rifle.
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Thanks for the replys .
What year would this had been made and be period correct.
http://www.traditionsfirearms.com/eshop ... Code=R2090 (http://www.traditionsfirearms.com/eshop/10Expand.asp?ProductCode=R2090)
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Probably late 20th century, it really does not have the architecture of the originals, many of the production guns start with a plank to narrow to get the stock layoput so the buttsock has to hump up then curve down, I have not seem any production "Roman nose " guns that look like the originals, these are guns are all made in the spirit of the guns of the past and are quite different from the originals they are traditionaly styles but not replicas of any school or type or time period, and way over priced now for the most part.
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well I own a percussion version of that gun and I would really like to buy a custom made gun from people like wyosmith but I don't think i'll even be able to afford one so i was thinking I could swap mine over to flint and be PC .
Maybe that isn't a good idea, whats everyone advice for me.
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Wadedog, for the money and hassle it would take to convert that to a rock lock, save the cash and put it towards a gently used firearm, will be some deals coming up this year with the economy in the crapper! Should be able to find some nice rifles in the 500 to 700 dollar range in the months to come
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Beaverman has the right idea, just changing one of those guns to flint will not make it a PC/HC gun, you can find some good deals on good replica type in the various forums though in the trade blankets
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ahhhhh the traditions rifle . changing it is not a problem . as they use the same lock plate for both locks . the it carries a drum type bolster so again simple switch . a plus to converting yours would be that you wouldnt have the exstreamly poor located flash hole location on the traditions flinlock model of that rifle .
but as otheres have said . changeing it will not make it correct for a time period .
im not sure i fully feel the same way as beaver man though about guns being avalable soon . one one hand i want to say he is right . but on the other hand with the current situation we have here in the USA and the very real fear gun owners have ,of the next 4 years , i cant see many people selling of things cheeply . Infact i will sell of this PC before ill sell of one of my personal guns .
my point is that you might look into restocking your rifle with they style you want . add the correct hardwear..
while your doing that you have a rifle to shoot .
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It is always a good idea to keep an eye on the trade blankets, a few years ago I picked up a Chambers early Virginia smoothrifle, Getz swamped .62 batrrel with bag, horn and all the fixins for 800 bucks, I have seen as good or better deals since then, it is a lot like barn sales you have to be there at the right time
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ahhhhh the traditions rifle . changing it is not a problem . as they use the same lock plate for both locks . the it carries a drum type bolster so again simple switch . a plus to converting yours would be that you wouldnt have the exstreamly poor located flash hole location on the traditions flinlock model of that rifle .
Thanks everyone for the replys , capt i'm not exactly sure what you were explaining in that first part of your reply, some misspellings and mistyping kinda threw me of track, can you explain again about drum bolster and flash hole.
I guess if nothing i do will make it acceptable as PC I should just give up and watch for a another gun and try and sell this one.
thanks guys.
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sorry wadedog my spelling is always bad but when im on my laptop its extreme . the key board is different .
what i was getting at is that Traditions uses a drum bolster for their percussion guns . un like TC or Lyman which use an improved breech .
the drum bolster is the part your nipple screws into . this is the way flintlocks were converted to percussion . they simply tapped out the flash hole liner and threaded it so as to be able to screw the drum in . so to convert it back , you have to simply take the bolster out, make or buy the proper size liner .
now traditions uses the same lock plate for their flintlock model of this gun as the do for their percussion rifle . IE the inlet is the same .
I have also found that the pan on their flint , lock . lines up nicely to the same location as the bolster on their percussion rifles . this makes conversion back to flint fairly simple.
Now IF you call traditions on this , they will tell you NO you cant convert their percussion rifle . But understand they also claim that their flash hole is placed properly , concerning their flintlocks and it is not correct ore any where near correct in its location .
But just converting the rifle to flint isn’t going to change that it’s a generalization of an opinion of a possible rifle of an early time period . Now there is nothing wrong with that , nothing at all . Remember the ONLY person you have to please is yourself .
So what I was getting at is this .
Lets say you like the rifle , it shoot nicely for you but your wanting something that would be alittle more correct in the lines but cant afford the cost of a new rifle . Maybe you have concerns about used rifles ?? Who knows
What im asking is have you considered just re stocking and up grading your traditions to better lines.
You have the barrel trigger and such right there . Yes the barrel will be shorter the optimal but if that’s not a problem for you and you can live with that , then your going to find yourself into about ½ the cost .
If this was me and I was looking into this I would get a stock , either blank or pre-carve depending on your skill level , that’s more correct for the time fraim your thinking of . I would then get the hardware for the same general time period your looking at . IE butt plate , side plate , TG , . RR thimbles . Same with the nose cap and RR entry thimble IF applicable .
While your at it I would change the lock . By that , im saying DON’T get a traditions lock or a L&R RPL replacement for traditions . Get a good quality lock that also is relative to that time frame and for the rifle that your doing . I have no faith in the traditions flint locks . For their cost you can add a few more bucks and get a lock that is 1000x better in every way ,,,, hands down .
Now all you have to di is use the main components of your existing rifle and place ? Inlet / fit ,them to your new stock ..
If you do this yourself , you will not be without a rifle while you working on the new stock ..
If this rifle isn’t your primary shooter and you can do without it for a while and don’t want to try this yourself , contact me through PM and we can go over the cost of me doing it for you .
I do this a lot for folks . You still end up with a Traditions rifle , but now the sky is the limit . You can add what ever you like . Different patch box , maybe a wood sliding patch box .
A better fitting stock cut to the proper drop , cast and pull for you . Not to mention a lock that will be a lot more consistent and reliable .
Not to mention something that will be , while shorter , still much more along the correct lines of what your thinking of
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I have seen some re-done production guns that look pretty good,TC's and some of the longrifles like this one, as Cap mentions a new stock is about a must, the straight barrel pretty will prettty much anchor the gun as post 1800 but there are a lot of nice looking guns in that time period, it is all pretty much driven by how correct one wants the end project to be, it is best to know what is right or wrong for any given period/gun that way one can make choices and talk about the gun from a position of knowledge even if it is not quite right in some details if you know what you have or don't have it makes it easier around the campfire and events where PC/HC talks may occur and one can enter such exchanges from a position of strength rather than guesswork no matter what the details ofthe gun may be, it isn't a crime to have/use a gun that is not PC /HC most/many are not but folks can get touchy when one trys to pass off something that isn't as something that is. good luck on whichever way you go, and whatever you do or don't do keep shooting and enjoy the journey.
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thanks guys, I appreciate the advice.