Your TMA Officers and Board of Directors
Support the TMA! ~ Traditional Muzzleloaders ~ The TMA is here for YOU!
*** JOIN in on the TMA 2024 POSTAL MATCH *** it's FREE for ALL !

For TMA related products, please check out the new TMA Store !

The Flintlock Paper

*** Folk Firearms Collective Videos ***



Author Topic: The Stigma of "Made in India"  (Read 1908 times)

Offline Captchee

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6215
Re: The Stigma of "Made in India"
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2014, 05:23:56 AM »
Quote
Here in the UK the proofing of import guns rifles etc be it Muzzle loading or breech loading is law and must go through proof at Birmingham or London proof houses

ok but  what does that include felt wad ?
 In other words if I build what were to look  like a Bess , but had no flash hole , or lets even say a lock that as built would not function properly ,. Would it have to go through proof if I sent it to you ?
 What if all you had to do was  change out the tumbler in the lock or drill a flash hole  so as to make the gun functional. Do you then have to send it off for proofing  after you do the work ?

Online Feltwad

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 228
Re: The Stigma of "Made in India"
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2014, 04:29:39 PM »
Captchee

Maybe I should have explained this better .If the gun is a repro muzzle loading or a modern breechloader it will have to be proofed at the Proof Houses the only excemptions are those which the Proof House  accept the foreign proof such has Belgiam , Italy  and Spain .Some makers in these countries and others do not have them proofed so if they are exported to the UK then they must be proofed.You mentioned a gun which had no touchhole which  could be difficult to import. also if the retailer did manage to import one for to use and sell on it it would have to have the touchhole drilled by a proper gunsmith and entered for proof, once proofed and if the owner could not collect it in person from the gunsmith it would then be posted to a Regested Firearms Dealer who would then transfered it the the owners shotgun or firearms certificate.
British proof laws are very strict and if not carried out in accordance with the law can end up with a heavy fine or a prison term ,to explain them in full would take many paragraphs .
Feltwad
A Flint Lock will not secure a chicken house door

Offline tiger13

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3
Re: The Stigma of "Made in India"
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2014, 08:44:54 AM »
And once it goes through the proofing process, there is nothing to say that any gun wont blow up on the next shot. The Indian muskets provide a way for people to get into the sport on a budget without breaking the bank and get their foot in the door to see if they even will enjoy the sport without the high cost of a Pedersoli or a custom made gun.  Like the CVA brand of years ago, they have their place, but are looked down upon by so many in this sport, it is no wonder that it is hard to attract new recruits to sport when so many often push $1500- to $2500 guns to newcomers.

Offline greggholmes

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 209
  • TMA Member: 675
Re: The Stigma of "Made in India"
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2014, 07:38:44 PM »
no one is going to want to learn how to drive if they have to wait until they can afford a Rolls Royce.
we need more starter guns on the market.
Member #675
Skagit Muzzle loaders
Expires June16, 2017

Any arm save our mothers', that arm is Brown Bess!


Offline Detached

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
Re: The Stigma of "Made in India"
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2014, 07:51:07 PM »
Traditions and Lyman both still make inexpensive (relatively speaking) guns. Both offer percussion or flint. Both offer pistols. Traditions offers a 'Kentucky' rifle and a 'Pennsylvania' rifle. The Lyman Great Plains is pretty much without peer in its price range. Seems like there are options for those who want a more entry level rifle.
Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.

Offline tiger13

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3
Re: The Stigma of "Made in India"
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2014, 08:27:57 PM »
I had very good luck with my MVTC muskets. I had two, the first one being stolen, and bought a second one to replace it with. I have been shooting black powder since I built my first gun when I was 12 back in the early 70's. There are several makers from India, and as long as the buyer does a little homework they are good muskets. I would put mine up in a shoot against anyone. You would not win as far as being Historically correct, although there is no one making a first model long land right now except the Indian makers. And they are a might clunky, but they can be worked down a bit. But I would highly recommend MVTC to anyone looking for a starter musket.

Offline Stormrider51

  • TMA Contributing Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 447
  • TMA: Contributing Member.
  • TMA Member: Membership #632 Expiration date, 02/05/2020
Re: The Stigma of "Made in India"
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2014, 01:53:08 AM »
I started this thread back in May and have experienced nothing to change my thoughts on the guns made in India since then.  I sent the lock on my Bess back to MVTC because of the pan-to-frizzen fit issue.  I just wasn't happy with it.  They sent it back to me fitting as closely as the one on the Pedersoli Bess I had acquired in the interim.  In my opinion I shouldn't have had to send it back at all because it should have been properly fitted in the first place.  On the other hand, I've hardened dozens of frizzens on Lyman's, CVA's, etc, since the 1970's.  They fit fine but were too soft to spark worth a darn.  I saw springs that broke.  I'm hard pressed to be overly critical of MVTC when more expensive commercially manufactured muzzleloading firearms had chronic problems out of the box and many still do.

I sold both my MVTC and Pedersoli Besses and moved on, not because they weren't good guns but simply because a Bess eats huge chunks of lead and mastodons are scarce game animals in Texas.  I'm now shooting a 20 g/.62 cal smoothbore that I believe was built by Track of the Wolf or at least from a kit offered by them.  It's my fifth smoothbore.  My first was a Centermark Fusil Fin, the second by custom builder Tom Knight, the third from MVTC, and the fourth by Pedersoli.  I'm still doing load development with the newest one but as of this date the hands-down winner in the accuracy department was the Bess from MVTC.  I don't know if this holds true of all MVTC muskets and frankly would be surprised if it did but that was my experience.  Yours could be completely different.

My advice today remains the same as when I first wrote.  Buy the best gun you can afford but don't avoid the guns Made in India.  Know the good importers and accept that your gun may have issues to be resolved after the purchase.  The same could hold true for that Lyman GPR or a Traditions, or any factory made gun.

Storm
Life is an adventure.  Don't miss it.
Member #632

Online Feltwad

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 228
Re: The Stigma of "Made in India"
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2014, 05:00:48 AM »
Quote from: tiger13
And once it goes through the proofing process, there is nothing to say that any gun wont blow up on the next shot.

If a gun is proofed at both Birmingham and London proof houses it is unlikely that  it will blow up on the next shot  providing there is no barrel obstuction . These two proof houses are the best in the world .
Feltwad
A Flint Lock will not secure a chicken house door

Offline Captchee

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6215
Re: The Stigma of "Made in India"
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2014, 07:26:37 AM »
Quote from: "Feltwad"
Quote from: "tiger13"
And once it goes through the proofing process, there is nothing to say that any gun wont blow up on the next shot.

If a gun is proofed at both Birmingham and London proof houses it is unlikely that  it will blow up on the next shot  providing there is no barrel obstuction . These two proof houses are the best in the world .
Feltwad
A Flint Lock will not secure a chicken house door



 i would agree Feltwad .
 however the  proof ,no mater who does it , is not a guarantee of  any real  term  dependability .  .
 There are any number of things that will take a  barrel out of proof . thus most everything  but the newest of firearms that have been proofed  should  IMO  be considered out of proof  
 All the proof really does is  to  document independently  that at the time the barrels or complete gun , were submitted , they met  the standards of proof .
 It should also be noted that proof doesn’t mean quality . It only means that  at the times of submission, the barrel or entire gun  , withstood the tests .
 In the case of the IOB , its more then a proof , it’s a complete documentation  of ever part , piece , the maker of as well as  numerous levels of proof  .

 That however isn’t the issue  as  these do not go through a proofing house of any kind .
So people then have to trust that the retail importer , has set a given safe standard . On top of that , hopefully  they  do tests to insure that standard is maintained .

 If we compare that with the   Spanish and Italian imports , they all go through proof  that is defined by their governments . Now we can disagree with the quality or level of that proof , its doesn’t change the fact the  barrels for those pieces have been submitted  in one form or another , to proof , as  distended to be  used as a working  firearm.
 Again this isn’t to say im against the  India , Imports . Im not . I in fact have a couple . However those  also went through IOB  proofs and were not built as curiosities with the intent of making them functional .

I would also agree that we need entry level  options .
 However , what I find to be rather interesting is  that these are not really entry level pieces  in that they are  not intended for the average Joe who wants to go shoot some  BP .  Instead they are marketed more for the re-enactor market  . Oddly enough its that market  demographic that seems to be crying  the loudest about these .

While it is also true that  there has always been an  cry  concerning imports like CVA , Traditions , Ultra Hi , Jukar …….. That cry  had at  least some base . Even though  the majority of it was  really IMO based more around the product being cheaper then we could produce here .

 In this case we don’t really have that .  Myself I don’t see the custom market being effected  by these imports  anymore then it was effected by the CVA , Jukar , Lyman  products .
 Since we do not and frankly cannot provide a low cost entry  level  product here in the US , there is no real challenge on that  level .. After all , it only takes just a few minutes of adding up the cost of parts  to quickly understand that even to build  a semi custom piece, adding in  paying  ONLY minimum  wage , will through you cost , well over the 1000-1500.00
OH and by the way , one might want to look at the cost of a Pedersoli .  For that mater the cost of replacing the parts on a cheep Pedersoli

So that leaves us with the real warnings about these guns , coming from  those who  have owned and had problems . Those who have seen others with problems  OR those who just continue to repeat what they read , with no real experience  on the subject .

So I would say that for someone just getting started , these maybe an option . However I would highly recommend doing your research and ONLY by from the most reputable  company . Also realize that  what re-enactors  find  to be suitable and what folks who use their pieces to actually fire a projectile  are 2 complete different things . So  be sure to research both camps for recommendations on where to purchase  or who to purchase from

Offline tiger13

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3
Re: The Stigma of "Made in India"
« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2014, 07:42:45 AM »
Quote from: "Feltwad"
Quote from: "tiger13"
And once it goes through the proofing process, there is nothing to say that any gun wont blow up on the next shot.

If a gun is proofed at both Birmingham and London proof houses it is unlikely that  it will blow up on the next shot  providing there is no barrel obstuction . These two proof houses are the best in the world .
Feltwad
A Flint Lock will not secure a chicken house door

As long as it is made by the hands of man, it is subject to failure at any time. And I will respectfully leave it at that.

Online Feltwad

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 228
Re: The Stigma of "Made in India"
« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2014, 08:05:56 AM »
The main cause of a burst  barrel is an obstruction  this can be snow , soil , and a card wad that is not rammed home which is by passed by the ramrod and left on the barrel wall .I have enclosed an image of an original s/b percussion shotgun that burst by a wad .Plastic wadding with black powder is another cause of barrel failure caused by a plastic coating on the bore which creates barrel ripple and also bulges .
Feltwad
A Flint Lock will not secure a chicken house door

Offline James Kelly

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 94
  • TMA Member: 262
Re: The Stigma of "Made in India"
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2014, 09:33:34 AM »
Thought I already posted this but can't find it.

In Ancient Times there was this very independent American named John Baird, who published the Buckskin Report. John was interested in safety & printed a variety of articles on the subject, including a few letters from me. He got me in touch with some men who had been harmed by their rifles, and I was expert witness in two or three lawsuits. I summed up the results, seventeen burst rifle barrels, in a three-part series which Muzzle Blasts kindly published in last half of 1985. It has since become clear to me that no one, no one, absolutely no one wants to hear bad things about their favorite muzzle loader so I have mostly kept silent on the matter. If you do want details, find those 1985 Muzzle Blasts.

From what I have heard of Indian muskets, including this thread & a report from a respected laboratory who may be a bit thin on muzzle loading knowledge, I prefer not to be on the same range with an Indian musket whilst being fired. Seamless tubing is not always seamless. But that is just me, and I am known in some muzzle loading circles as a real pain in the a-- metallurgist. So be it.

The only Indian gun I examined was an attractive brass barreled blunderbuss marketed by Navy Arms. Mr Forgett had not known that the Indians made it with such a loose fitting breech plug that the plug could blow out. One did, with a hefty blank charge of black powder & newspaper wadding. Fortunately it missed the shooter's head. Just the tips of the threads were a little smeared over. I could screw that plug back in by hand, and rattle it around. The thing was just too loose to use safely. Also, it was machined with a fine thread and any decent mechanic knows NOT to use fine threads in brass. Stuff is too soft.

As far as Indian gun laws I might say log on to indiansforums (Indians for Guns) & peruse a bit.
if the ball is not rammed close on the powder. . .frequently cause the barrel to burst

Offline Stormrider51

  • TMA Contributing Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 447
  • TMA: Contributing Member.
  • TMA Member: Membership #632 Expiration date, 02/05/2020
Re: The Stigma of "Made in India"
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2014, 11:18:37 AM »
As Feltwad shows, even quality firearms can be the victim of an accident or shooter error.  I also learned early on in my 26 year career as a paramedic and sometime peace officer that people often don't tell the whole truth when there has been an incident.  Their recollection of events tends to omit anything they may have personally done that caused or contributed to the event.  This becomes especially true when there is the scent of money from lawsuits involved.  People sometimes do dumb things with muzzleloaders or simply make a mistake.

Something that I don't think has been mentioned is that, barring "smooth rifles", smoothbore guns have relatively thin barrel walls.  This means the barrel will fail at a lower pressure than one of its rifle cousins.  We have to keep that in mind.

James Kelly tells of a brass blunderbuss with a breechplug that was an accident waiting to happen.  And it did happen.  Earlier I told of an India musket that I was asked to drill the vent on.  The breech had a plug and a narrow strip of metal welded across it.  I refused to drill the vent.  And it isn't only foreign guns that can have problems.  In the late 1970's a friend brought me a longrifle made by a known and respected local builder and asked me to sight it in and work up a hunting load.  This was a beautiful gun.  Curly maple stock with inlays.  It was .45 caliber with a 13/16" barrel.  It had drum and nipple percussion ignition.  I couldn't wait to shoot it.  I started with a 50 grain charge of FFFg.  Things were looking very good at 70 grains with the first two shots touching.  At the third shot the drum parted company with the barrel and went whizzing away to the right.  Have I mentioned that I'm left handed and this was a right handed rifle?  All I remember was a huge ball of fire in front of my face and the odor of singed hair.  I never did find the drum/nipple so I was left guessing what had happened.  The threads in the barrel looked okay and there were flecks of metal in them.  I think the drum failed but like I said, that's just a guess.  Did I double charge it?  I'd swear that I didn't but then again if I remembered doing it I'd have never squeezed the trigger.  

My point is that we are each responsible for the guns we shoot whether they are made in India, Italy, Spain, or one of the premier custom builders.  Once again, when it comes to India guns know your importer.  I personally would not buy from anyone who doesn't drill the vent before selling.  When the gun arrives give it a good going over before you head out to shoot it.  Don't exceed the recommended load.  I'll shoot on the same range with you.

Storm
Life is an adventure.  Don't miss it.
Member #632

Offline Detached

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
Re: The Stigma of "Made in India"
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2014, 11:26:25 AM »
Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.

Offline snake eyes

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2089
    • http://www.traditionalmuzzleloadingassociation.com
  • TMA Member: 10
Re: The Stigma of "Made in India"
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2014, 11:30:30 AM »
Quote from: "Stormrider51"
......My point is that we are each responsible for the guns we shoot whether they are made in India, Italy, Spain, or one of the premier custom builders.      Storm

Storm,
          I think that is one point we can all agree on. :shake [/color]
Erin Go Bragh
TMA Co -Founder & Charter member #10 to   7/1/2019
Ohio TMA State Rep[/color]
Life member: NAHC
Life member: NRA
Member: Columbus M/L GC

"If you come to a fork in the road....take it!"
    Yogi Berra