Traditional Muzzleloading Association
Traditional Firearms => Flintlock Long Guns => Topic started by: rodentrancher on December 01, 2023, 05:30:23 PM
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Been happily shooting a caplock rifle for a while now, and want to give flintlocks a try. Just for fun at this point, not competition or hunting, but I do want something that is reasonably accurate with a patched round ball, and that will reliably go bang (almost) every time I pull the trigger. From what I've read here and the links I've followed, a possible problem with the less expensive reproductions is the quality of the locks. While I don't greatly care about style, I'm definitely willing to spend a bit more for reliability.
So, I'm chewing over a couple of options:
#1 - Buying an Investarms rifle and a L&R replacement lock. Just figure on replacing the lock right off the bat;
#2 - Buy a Kibler kit. This could give me a much nicer rifle, as long as I don't screw up assembling and finishing the kit. Of course, this option would cost more. Also, I'm a little intimidated by the idea of building the kit - I have no experience doing this sort of thing, and I'm not the handiest guy around.
Opinions on either option would be welcome. Any other options for a good flintlock for under, say $1500, would also be welcome.
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I don't think there is any question. Get the Kibler. I've seen 7 or 8 of them so far and every one looked great and was accurate and welcome to the forum. I have to admit I'm a bit curious about your screen name.
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Yep, my opinion.... just bite the bullet and get the Kibler woodsrunner, easiest of his kits to assemble, check out his you tube channel and the woodsrunner build along vids he has up, basically some filing, sanding, stain and metal finish, you'll have a quality LR for a decent price which you'll have the pleasure and pride knowing it was put together by your hands, and we are here to help you along with any questions or bumps in the road with the build!
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.... I have to admit I'm a bit curious about your screen name.
Nothing too interesting about its origin, I'm afraid. Back in the 90s, when the Internet was just starting to be a thing, my (then) young nephew was visiting and brought his pet rat (the fancy breeds of rats are actually rather cute and make surprisingly good pets.) I was replying to someone with the screen name of "CatHerder" on a forum, and needed a screen name for the account. Looked at my nephew playing with his rat, and "Rodentrancher" came to mind. Been using it ever since.
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I'd like to chime in on the Kibler kits. I am finishing a .40 cal SMR from Kibler and I absolutely love it. Being a great fixer/repairman, I've never built a kit since High school (Radio Control Aircraft). The Kibler kit is amazing! The kit extremely well made and there are You Tube videoson every phase of construction by Jim Kibler himself. Dang, I think I just talked myself into another Kibler kit! :Doh!
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If you're going to spend north of a grand then there are options for assembled guns if you have hesitations building a kit.
That said, kibler woodsrunner has to be the easiest, quality kit you can buy.
you can slap it together as is or spend a little time with a file and sandpaper to clean things up. I highly recommend a kibler woodsrunner.
The hardest part is choosing a stock.
Kevin
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The problem with the Kibler kits is they ain't cheap. Worth the price? Maybe, but it is a fair chunk of change to put on the line to try something out that you might not even like.
I am thinking about a Traditions Deer Hunter in .50 caliber. It is about $385. I would order a couple of extra mainsprings to go with it.
Or a Lyman would be a better choice, but more $$$.
You might look in Pawn Shops for a used one.
John (Bigsmoke)
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Go for the Kibler. You won't e sorry. :bigsmile:
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I was going to add something, but my mind went blank. And that is all this is about.
John (Bigsmoke)
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The problem with the Kibler kits is they ain't cheap. Worth the price? Maybe, but it is a fair chunk of change to put on the line to try something out that you might not even like.
Hahahaa! Were you watching the exchanges of posts on another forum in Re: my "Kibler kit experience"? ARGH! On the bright side, the lock is superb, and once lapped and crowned, the Green Mountain barrel shoots well--but the problem was something that a first timer would have had a lot of trouble with.
If the OP goes the Kibler route, I'd suggest he see the stock before purchase (Kibler has apparently been posting photos of many of the stocks as "specials" due to premium or unusual wood, or to minor defects). Avoid cross-grain flow through the wrist.
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I would suggest starting out on a Lyman Great Plains Flintlock Rifle... It's a good rifle and well worth the money spent. It will serve you well... If you find that the ML (sport / hobby) isn't for you, you could probably sell the Lyman Great Plains Rifle a lot faster and, recoup most of your investment... If you find you really enjoy this "sport / hobby" than down the road look for an up' grade (such as the Kibler kit). It's going to be a learning curve no matter which route you take... :shake
Big Smoke's reply is not a bad idea at all, IMHO...
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I would suggest starting out on a Lyman Great Plains Flintlock Rifle... It's a good rifle and well worth the money spent.
I'd heard good things about Lyman black powder rifles, a pity they've been discontinued. If I can find a used one in good shape, that's something I will consider.
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:Doh!
I'm getting old... I forgot they were discontinued... :Doh!
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I would suggest starting out on a Lyman Great Plains Flintlock Rifle... It's a good rifle and well worth the money spent.
I'd heard good things about Lyman black powder rifles, a pity they've been discontinued. If I can find a used one in good shape, that's something I will consider.
Look around the net, GB, and local pawn shops, should be able to find a Lyman at a decent price, and there is nothing wrong with their locks, no need to by a new L&R, I have had several Lyman GPR's over the last 35 years and have never had a lock problem. Actually I've never had a problem with a TC lock either.
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I would suggest starting out on a Lyman Great Plains Flintlock Rifle... It's a good rifle and well worth the money spent.
I'd heard good things about Lyman black powder rifles, a pity they've been discontinued. If I can find a used one in good shape, that's something I will consider.
Look around the net, GB, and local pawn shops, should be able to find a Lyman at a decent price, and there is nothing wrong with their locks, no need to by a new L&R, I have had several Lyman GPR's over the last 35 years and have never had a lock problem. Actually I've never had a problem with a TC lock either.
I agree with Beaverman. I have never experienced any problem with the GPR's Flintlock. It answered the call every time I pulled the trigger.
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I'm going to go along with Bigsmoke on this one, up to a point. I suggest their Mountain Rifle. The Traditions rifles are good, solid guns. They took over where CVA left off, importing them from Spain. They are better than what CVA was selling and the price is, for this day & age, not extravagant. The locks spark well and the build isn't difficult.
https://www.deercreekproducts.net/store/p1365/Traditions_Mountain_Kit_Rifle_.50_Cal__Flintlock_-_G59208.html
Eric Bye said good things about CVA in "Flintlocks - A Practical Guide" and that would carry over to Traditions also.
My Hodgepodge rifle started out as a CVA Mountain Rifle kit, which I have modified quite a bit (sometimes not for the better) over the years.
~Kees~
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Many thanks for the information y'all have offered. I've had no luck yet finding a Lyman GPR in good condition at an acceptable price, but I did come across this interesting item on GB:
"Very nice little rifle from an unknown maker. The barrel is a 28" long Green Mountain with Thompson Center adjustable sights. Bore has 1-66" deep cut rifling for patched round ball, bore is shiny bright with no rust or pitting. The lock and triggers are also Thompson Center and work great. Flint lock sparks well. Stock is curly Maple with a very nice pattern and in excellent condition showing almost no wear."
Looking at the sellers' profile, he only seems to sell muzzleloaders, and he doesn't hesitate to identify some of his other items as having dark and/or pitted bores - builds some confidence that this rifle is as described.
Could be promising as a fairly inexpensive way to try out flintlocks and still get one with a reliable lock, if the bidding doesn't go crazy.
I gather from some comments here that y'all think well of the TC locks?
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I personally know the Seller and can vouch for his honesty and trustworthiness. T?C locks have withstood the test of time, not the best or fastest but damn good. I own two Thompson Center flintlocks both are over 35 years old and have the original locks.
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Great information Nessmuk, thank you!
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Some of the older T-C locks had issues, mostly from the geometry of the cock and frizzen. They were redesigned and the newer ones are more reliable. That said, I have had a couple of T-C rifles with the old style locks which worked well. The one I have now I changed out the frizzen for one for the Lyman lock which gives an impressive spark. I would put in a bid, knowing that a new cock and frizzen are available from the Gunworks Muzzleloading Emporium (https://thegunworks.com/) or L&R makes a replacement lock which I know Bigsmoke may have available.
~Kees~
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Indeed I do, Winter Hawk.
It is used, but not much. I've had it what, Kees, maybe 3 years? And in that time, I have maybe put 100 shots down the barrel. So, not much use from me.
It's now a percussion gun and I like it much better that way.
So, what to do with the L & R lock? I guess maybe I should sell it. So, check out the Trade Blanket section of the forum.
John
PS: Actually, I did just sell it and it was delivered today via USPS. 12/14/23
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A question for those of you who like the Lyman Great Plains, now discontinued - I've seen people say that the Lyman GP was actually made by Investarms for Lyman. I've seen others say that they were made by Pedersoli. Both Investarms and Pedersoli still sell "Plains Hawkens" flintlock rifles. Any experience/opinions with either of these?
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A question for those of you who like the Lyman Great Plains, now discontinued - I've seen people say that the Lyman GP was actually made by Investarms for Lyman. I've seen others say that they were made by Pedersoli. Both Investarms and Pedersoli still sell "Plains Hawkens" flintlock rifles. Any experience/opinions with either of these?
If I can get my memory working (some what properly). Investarms made the Great Plains Rifle FOR Lyman (starting back in the 1960's IIRC) and I almost bought a GPR "kit" in 1969 when they were retailing for around $100.00, but opted for a CVA Mountain Rifle "kit" (from Spain) instead because it was $20.00 cheaper.
When Lyman discontinued the GPR line, Pedersoli started to produce a SIMILAR muzzleloader in PERCUSSION (but of more historically correct design) at nearly twice the price.
It sadly appears that offerings of traditional style muzzleloaders from both Italian import companies (Lyman, and Pedersoli) are in a downward spiral for the foreseeable future . :(
If you are looking for either rifle, you'll probably have to buy a used one. :bl th up
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I'll chime in here. I bought my first Lyman GPR in 1992 for about $250 and it was made by Investarms. i don't remember when they started offering them, the mid 1980s I think. Rondo may be thinking of CVA versus Thompson-Center as Lyman didn't have the GPR available in 1969 that I know of.
Lyman continued importing from Investarms but in 2020 they also started importing the same rifle made by Pedersolli as a deluxe version for a higher price. A year or so later the Investarms was out the window and now they aren't importing any muzzleloaders.
http://tradmla.org/tmaf/index.php?topic=23888.msg224223#msg224223
I'm going by memory now so may be totally off base here. :laffing
~Kees~
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Prices for used TC and Lyman flintlocks in good shape on GunBroker seem to be running around $700-800 now - more than the current Investarms model and almost in the range of the Pedersoli. So if the current production from the Italian makers is as good as the old Lyman Great Plains, a new reproduction rifle might be the way to go.
Or maybe I should work my courage up and attempt a Kibler kit.
Thanks for listening to me dither . . .
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What's happening to traditional muzzleloaders today.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MSedBzpd-M
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He is ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!!
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The TMA was founded on this very principle of; "only traditional muzzleloading firearms should be used in the (at that time) "traditional" muzzleloading hunting seasons... We all know that "big tech" won out in the end, simply because the Game & Parks Hunting Division's were (and are) all about selling hunting permits... Money was the bottom line, not the ethics of the hunt...
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Prices for used TC and Lyman flintlocks in good shape on GunBroker seem to be running around $700-800 now - more than the current Investarms model and almost in the range of the Pedersoli. So if the current production from the Italian makers is as good as the old Lyman Great Plains, a new reproduction rifle might be the way to go.
Or maybe I should work my courage up and attempt a Kibler kit.
Thanks for listening to me dither . . .
Yes, order a Kibler and you will never regret it. Quality works wonders in the field. If I can put two together anyone can.