Post by: bigalber on April 29, 2016, 03:13:54 PM
Youtube has some videos which shows individuals dropping the minie ball directly on top of the powder and ramming down on the powder.
Is there a problem with leading of the barrel. BP gets quite hot, and I worry about the bullet base melting and fouling the rifling.
How does one tell if a muzzleloading rifle has lead fouling, and how is it cleaned out?
Appreciate the help of those who share their experiences.
AL Bernard
South Central PA
Post by: greyhunter on April 29, 2016, 04:33:50 PM
Post by: Uncle Russ on April 29, 2016, 05:32:53 PM
A little something you may be interested in;
(Forgive me if this is a bit long, but sometimes more than just a bit of explanation is needed)
Back in the day...Prior to the development of this new ammunition and weapons designed to use it, "rifles" were essentially smoothbore muskets with much longer barrels, such as the famed Pennsylvania or Kentucky rifle of the Revolutionary War and War of 1812. They were cumbersome, slow to load, and couldn’t be used with a bayonet, all of which limited their use to a few special military units. Some muskets were created with a type of rifling, but the problem of providing a tight enough fit for the load within the barrel did not permit the true rifling that would come as a result of the Minie´ ball.
In the 1830s, Captain John Norton of the British 34th Regiment was serving in India. Some local tribes used blowguns, and Norton observed the base of their darts was made from pith, the spongy wood from the center of tree trunks. This pith expanded when a person blew into the blowgun’s tube, closing the space between the tube and the dart to give a tight seal that increased the dart’s range.
Based on this principle Norton developed a cylindrical bullet with a hollow base in 1832. His design was improved on in 1836 by a London gunsmith named William Greener, who created an oval-shaped bullet, one end of which had a flat surface with a small hole drilled into it. This hole traveled through most of the length of the bullet and was covered by a conical plug with a round, wooden base. Upon firing, the plug would expand to prevent gases from escaping—essentially the same principle as the blowgun dart.
The design of Norton and Greener was taken a step further by two French army captains, Claude-E´tienne Minie´ and Henri-Gustave Delvigne, who in 1849 created the conical, soft-lead bullet with four rings, and a rifle with a grooved barrel to go with it.
Delvigne, who would go on to co-design several models of revolving pistols, had earlier created a conical bullet design, but Minie´made the projectile smaller and longer, easier to load. At the time, French troops were facing Algerians whose long rifles outranged French muskets, and the invention of Minie´ offered a solution to that problem. (Minie´is properly pronounced min-YAY, but Americans pronounced the name as "Minnie.")
Captain Minie of the French Army is the one must credited with the development of the Mini, Minie, or Minnie Ball, thus giving it its name.
As greyhunter mentioned privously, knowing leading happens, especially with heavier powder charges is well recognized...what to do about it is a whole 'nother thing.
It is equally recognized that a heavy lube / grease in the "rings", or lube grooves, on a Minnie Ball greatly reduces that leading and allows for repeated shots before a swabbing becomes a must in order to get the next Minnie Ball down the barrel.
As far as melting the base of a Minnie? Personally, I don't think that can happen.
Be more concerned about "blowing" the skirt (the hollow portion at the base of a Minnie) which creates radical behavior on the part of the projectile once it leaves the barrel.
Remember, when firing a Musket, or any firearm, you are mechanically converting a solid (gun powder) into a gas, a very high pressure gas...that gas in turn pushes the projectile out of barrel at a very high rate of speed, along with any "un-burned" powder.
With a "bore light" you can see leading, some say a blue light is better while others say a green light is better as lead supposedly "bends" the refraction of different colored light waves....either way, following a good soapy water scrub with patch and bristled brush, then a good solvent you will remove the lead, then a good wipe down to dry it real well, and a touch of oil and you're ready to go do it all over again.
Fun, ain't it!
A London gunsmith named William Greener, if you're really into guns and shooting you may want to remember that name!
England's version of our own John Browning....
Uncle Russ...
Post by: Bigsmoke on April 29, 2016, 05:56:07 PM
Good job, my friend. That answered Al's question better than I could have.
To Al, I am wondering why you want to shoot a Minnie Ball?
If you are concerned with leading, the easy answer is to shoot a PRB. With the PRB, you never get leading because the lead never contacts the bore of the rifle. If you are wanting a heavier projectile, the answer is pretty easy also. Shoot a bigger ball in a larger caliber rifle. I am guessing the .50 Minnie will weigh about 350 grains+/-? A .62 caliber rifle will shoot a .610 diameter, 335 grain round ball. With the correct rifling it will also shoot it faster, flatter and further. And with the wider frontal area, it will hit harder as well. And a big bore rifle is a lot more fun to shoot. At least that is my prejudiced opinion.
Post by: bigalber on April 29, 2016, 07:38:06 PM
I'm new to muzzleloading long guns, having gotten started late last year, although I have shot cap & ball revolvers.
I have 3 sidelocks, a flintlock Kentucky rifle, a caplock Hawken, and a caplock pistol, all in 50 cal. Trying to convince myself that I need a 20 gauge Fowler to shoot clay birds, but don't think I can con myself into another rifle. Hunting is not in my plans.
Although ramming home a PRB is a PIA, it's part of the joy of muzzleloading. But it is tiring in a long practice session. Shooting minie balls, which are so much easier to load, would allow longer practice sessions to get used to handling the rifles. Endurance is an issue I deal with.
Appreciate the feedback.
AL
Post by: edmundreiss1 on October 05, 2016, 12:57:22 PM
Post by: Uncle Russ on October 05, 2016, 02:09:09 PM
Quote from: "edmundreiss1"
I am also considering going to hornady 50 cal. conical pa. at 240 grains. Would this improve accuracy in my lyman trade rifle shooting 70 grains of FFG. I am presently using 70 grains FFG, a .490 round ball, .020 patch and a wad cutter over the powder because my patches were getting cut. I have already lapped the barell with steel woolGreat question edmundreiss1! :hairy
Uncle Russ...
Post by: edmundreiss1 on October 05, 2016, 04:30:29 PM
Post by: Hawken on October 05, 2016, 06:17:25 PM
Shoot these and your worries are gone:
(https://c3.staticflickr.com/9/8614/28439704306_5750a8c97d_n.jpg) (http://https)PRB (http://https) by Sharps Man (http://https), on Flickr
Post by: edmundreiss1 on October 06, 2016, 05:12:57 AM
Post by: RobD on October 06, 2016, 06:20:23 AM
GATO FEO LUBE
by weight ...
1 part mutton tallow (dixie gun works)
1 part canning wax (gulf)
1/2 part beeswax
melt and mix in "double boiler" style - pot of water on a stove, components in a can within the potted water. pour out the liquid lube into a milk carton or muffin tin. when cooled it will be soft enuf to just rub into the grooves of a minie, or maxi, or REAL bullet. rubbed into a patch strip and melted in with a hair dryer or heat gun makes a super patch lube.
(click the image below to see the patch strip lube video)
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/mQnAcCnAOek/mqdefault.jpg) (http://https)
Post by: RobD on October 06, 2016, 06:36:01 AM
Quote from: "edmundreiss1"
... I am presently using 70 grains FFG, a .490 round ball, .020 patch and a wad cutter over the powder because my patches were getting cut. I have already lapped the barell with steel wool
there is no easy, pat, works-no-matter-what patched ball recipe that works for every rifle and every shooter. experimentation is required - always. increase and decrease the powder charge AND the granule size ... i find that 3F works best for all my flinters, both down the tube and in the pan. yer patch may be too thick, also requiring a short starter and possibly a hammer to get down the barrel's throat. this alone could set up the patch for getting compromised by the barrel's lands. instead, go thinner for the patch material and increase in increments - .010, .012, .015. .018 - all material is definitely not alike. when you find one that works well, yields good consistent accuracy from 25 yards to 75 and even 100 yards, stock up on it!
precut patches or patch strips cut at the muzzle? i'm of the camp that prefers cutting at the muzzle, as this insures the ball will always be in the center of the patch, and i'll not have a lop sided patch going in and out of the tube that could "screw ball" the ball.
.
Post by: edmundreiss1 on October 06, 2016, 07:58:17 AM
Post by: RobD on October 06, 2016, 11:14:07 AM
if 1:60 or so, that will work best with a patched ball. if the more liberal 1:48, that'll work ok for ball or bullet. if it's a faster twist, balls will lose out over bullets.
deer of the whitetail variety are typically quite thin skinned and a patched 128 grain .440 ball over 50 grains of 3fg will blast right on thru the vitals at 60+ yards - been there, done that. SO, a far Far FAR heavier greased .50 bullet over 60 grains of 2fg will destroy a deer at 100 yards, let alone 75 yards. but, imho, i do believe yer gonna be much better off with a patched 175 grain .490 ball under whatever black powder charge works most consistently accurate with yer rifle, and you at the helm. all of this is assuming a twist rate of between 1:60 and 1:48.
Post by: rollingb on October 06, 2016, 11:38:04 AM
Quote from: "rfd"
Very wise words,.... also, he might want to try some .495 balls when he's 'spermintin' with various patch thickness. (always using pure 100% cotton for patchin')Quote from: "edmundreiss1"... I am presently using 70 grains FFG, a .490 round ball, .020 patch and a wad cutter over the powder because my patches were getting cut. I have already lapped the barell with steel wool
there is no easy, pat, works-no-matter-what patched ball recipe that works for every rifle and every shooter. experimentation is required - always. increase and decrease the powder charge AND the granule size ... i find that 3F works best for all my flinters, both down the tube and in the pan. yer patch may be too thick, also requiring a short starter and possibly a hammer to get down the barrel's throat. this alone could set up the patch for getting compromised by the barrel's lands. instead, go thinner for the patch material and increase in increments - .010, .012, .015. .018 - all material is definitely not alike. when you find one that works well, yields good consistent accuracy from 25 yards to 75 and even 100 yards, stock up on it!
precut patches or patch strips cut at the muzzle? i'm of the camp that prefers cutting at the muzzle, as this insures the ball will always be in the center of the patch, and i'll not have a lop sided patch going in and out of the tube that could "screw ball" the ball.
.
Post by: RobD on October 06, 2016, 11:45:43 AM
Post by: edmundreiss1 on October 06, 2016, 12:27:15 PM
Post by: RobD on October 06, 2016, 01:02:55 PM
Quote from: "edmundreiss1"
I thank everyone for their help, I have a 50 cal lyman trade flinter and use .020 patches, 70FFG, .490 roundball and wads over the powder.
for starters, try a .015 well lubed patch instead, and up the volume of powder to 80 grains. for your testing, wipe well between shots, in order to get a more positive "first shot" test results,
Post by: rollingb on October 06, 2016, 05:48:30 PM
Quote from: "bigalber"
Most of my shooting has been Cowboy Action, which mandates hard cast lead bullets. So leading of barrels is something to be avoided (from experience).A solid brass range-rod will make short work of loading PRB at the bench, I've seen guys even replace the wooden ramrods on their rifles with solid brass rods.
I'm new to muzzleloading long guns, having gotten started late last year, although I have shot cap & ball revolvers.
I have 3 sidelocks, a flintlock Kentucky rifle, a caplock Hawken, and a caplock pistol, all in 50 cal. Trying to convince myself that I need a 20 gauge Fowler to shoot clay birds, but don't think I can con myself into another rifle. Hunting is not in my plans.
Although ramming home a PRB is a PIA, it's part of the joy of muzzleloading. But it is tiring in a long practice session. Shooting minie balls, which are so much easier to load, would allow longer practice sessions to get used to handling the rifles. Endurance is an issue I deal with.
Appreciate the feedback.
AL
A solid brass ramrod will indeed add weight to one's rifle, but some shooters claim the extra weight is beneficial for a steadier aim and like the fact that a brass ramrod is unbreakable.
As with lots of this stuff,.... YMMV.
Post by: Fletcher on October 07, 2016, 12:13:44 AM
improve on old. I have a couple 1:48 twist guns which spin the PRB a bit much but supposed
to be good with conicals. As you have said that can bring up the leading problem - and lubing
the groves does help. I found a mould at a ML trad show that is a .50 conical. It has 3 deep
grooves and a very concave base. That makes the rear edge quite thin and I think that helps it
seat deep into the lands and grooves of the rifling. I use a stiff Lyman lube and the fouling is less
than other styles. The accuracy was by far the best. I could shoot bench groups at 50 and 75 yds
much tighter than other conicals or prb. Now all of those were plenty good for hunting rounds at
those distances - and I just could not see well enough to go beyond 75 yds. Have not shot that for
several years now - but want to get back to more when I head home in March from my SOCAL Sojourn
Keep up the great articles
Post by: RobD on October 07, 2016, 05:22:59 AM
Post by: bigalber on October 07, 2016, 09:46:38 AM
Main advantage is no lube is used, as it produces its own "lube". No "hard fowling". Used with dry patches or wads, and supposedly reloading is much easier. Cleans easily with water.
I haven't tried in muzzle loaders, but have shot in cartridges.
Post by: RobD on October 07, 2016, 09:55:48 AM
Quote from: "bigalber"
Has anyone used APP (American Pioneer Powder) BP sub?
Main advantage is no lube is used, as it produces its own "lube". No "hard fowling". Used with dry patches or wads, and supposedly reloading is much easier. Cleans easily with water.
I haven't tried in muzzle loaders, but have shot in cartridges.
a smokeless powder that produces its own lube? :applaud
Post by: Uncle Russ on October 07, 2016, 04:13:22 PM
Quote from: "bigalber"
Has anyone used APP (American Pioneer Powder) BP sub?I have personally never heard of this claim before so I went to Pioneer Powder to see what I could find.
Main advantage is no lube is used, as it produces its own "lube". No "hard fowling". Used with dry patches or wads, and supposedly reloading is much easier. Cleans easily with water.
I haven't tried in muzzle loaders, but have shot in cartridges.
Also, I have never used anything in my own muzzleloaders, other than loose real black powder, so this statement really peaked my interest.
Welcome to American Pioneer Powder (http://www.americanpioneerpowder.com/superSticks.html)
I did find this:.....
Shooting Tips: Three Easy Steps!
1. Clean all oil, lube, bore butter, ballistol, and foreign material out of the gun using non-lubed cleaner(i.e. alcohol).
2. Shoot a fouling shot.
3. Load and shoot. Repeat.
Cleaning - Wet Patch (water only), dry patch.
Repeat, if necessary. Then lightly oil for storage.
I have personally never used any of American Pioneer Powder's Products, so I can't even begin to give any kind of assessment to their claims.
But...what I have learned over the years is that most faux powders are designed and intended to be used in in-lines using 209 shot-gun primers for ignition.
FWIW; I have strongly resisted the use of these guns, and their associated accessories, because of the very things I was fighting so hard for back in the 1960's, early 70's and that was a primitive special season for Muzzle loaders with a relative short range for the many concerns at the time in populated areas, still yet, because these new rifles loaded from the front, and represented a lot of money for different Game Departments in the form of License Sales, and to the retailer for a opportunity in increased sales, they were accepted into that Special Season and became very much a part of the American hunting scene.
Things such as In-lines, Faux Powder, Scopes, and Sabots are very much legal and well received by many, in a lot of our States.
I find that to be the American Way, and perhaps that is as it should be, if we are to remain a free Nation.
It's more of the typical "to each his own" scenario, while I prefer the Traditional style of gun to do my shooting and hunting, but then that is just me......
Uncle Russ...
Post by: Two Steps on October 07, 2016, 05:10:06 PM
Al
Post by: bigalber on October 07, 2016, 07:35:47 PM
The fouling is water based, which is a product of the combustion of the powder (a hydrocarbon), and very fine residue which feels slippery and acts like "lube". APP produces as much smoke as BP, loads (by volume) the same as BP, and, judging by the recoil when I shot a full load .45lc, as much punch as BP. The large pistol primers worked 100%.
I would suspect that a Caplock should work OK, but I was wondering about the Flintlock being able to ignite the APP (reason I asked if anyone had experience with it). Next timeI go out, I'll experiment and see what happens.
APP has another advantage as not being static sensitive as BP is reputed to be, and some consider it safer to handle.
I understand the use of BP for competitive shooting events and hunting, but for recreational plinking I would be able to shoot a lot more with a lot less strain with APP, assuming it works in a Flintlock.
AL
Post by: Two Steps on October 07, 2016, 08:19:29 PM
Al
Post by: Uncle Russ on October 07, 2016, 08:45:38 PM
Quote from: "bigalber"
APP is popular in the Cowboy Shooting community. The bullets are not lubed, I used poly coated lead with no lube. Others use in C&B revolvers, again, no lube.
The fouling is water based, which is a product of the combustion of the powder (a hydrocarbon), and very fine residue which feels slippery and acts like "lube". APP produces as much smoke as BP, loads (by volume) the same as BP, and, judging by the recoil when I shot a full load .45lc, as much punch as BP. The large pistol primers worked 100%.
I would suspect that a Caplock should work OK, but I was wondering about the Flintlock being able to ignite the APP (reason I asked if anyone had experience with it). Next timeI go out, I'll experiment and see what happens.
APP has another advantage as not being static sensitive as BP is reputed to be, and some consider it safer to handle.
I understand the use of BP for competitive shooting events and hunting, but for recreational plinking I would be able to shoot a lot more with a lot less strain with APP, assuming it works in a Flintlock.
AL
[size=150]Now I get the picture! [/size]
A lot of fellas, myself included, have been playing around with PC or Powder Coating for the past 3 or 4 years..
It's a very simple process that has shown a lot of promise in Cap & Ball Pistols.
It also works well in oversize Balls for muskets as no lube is involved.
Of course, it must be understood that none of this is what could referred to as (PC or HC) Period Correct, or Historically Correct, and would never be accepted at any formal game played by honest muzzle loaders...But, for those that like to experiment, it is indeed a fun thing to try your hand at.
I have tried it on over size Maxi-Ball and there was no sign of leading whatsoever, and clean-up was a breeze.
Still yet, this is a replacement for lube, and has nothing to do with powder.
Maybe I'm still missing the boat on this APP thingy, which likely means I need to do a lot of reading in places I've never been before.
Thanks for sharing that with us bigalber, personally, I had never heard of it before, I suspect many of us Traditionalist types will need to do a little catching up on our research.
Uncle Russ...