Traditional Muzzleloading Association
Traditional Firearms => Flintlock Long Guns => Topic started by: Lastmohecken on October 31, 2009, 09:00:14 PM
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Well, this could be a long story, but I will try to keep it short, and get to the point, regarding this post. I am trying to learn the Flintlock, and I am presently shooting a Loaner .62 Fowler, the one that is supposed to be mine is not done yet, So Jackie Brown sent me a loaner, until I get mine. The gun I have right now is a little rough, but it was unfired when I received it.
Well, I finally got it sparking pretty good, I recond, and I am on my second flint now. Today, I took it squirrel hunting, using 80grs of FF, a hard card and 1/2" lubed wad over powder, with same volume of #6's and over shot hard card. I killed my first Flintlock Squirrel on the first pull of the trigger, with a clean gun. Second chance at a squirrel, was a flash in the pan, I was also having missfires of both kinds on my first shooting session.
I had had problems with this before. And I had been pricking the flash hole with a pick. I had determined at a previous shooting session that it seemed a full pan was working better, but that was before when part of my problem was sparking. I had also tried banking the powder, with not a lot of sucess. On the first session, it seemed like I was getting the most consistant bangs, by just loading the gun, not picking, and using a full pan of powder.
Anyway, I went home with the one squirrel, cleaned it, ate lunch, and went hunting late afternoon again. I had left the gun loaded, but emptied the pan, before going in the house. I carefully reprimed, picked the flash hole and went hunting. Had a squirrel growl at me on a limb, and allow me to aim fire, got another flash in the pan, but the spuirrel just sat there, I reprimed, and pulled the trigger again, another flash in the pan. The Squirrel had seen enough by now, I carefully reprimed and started to relive my loading of that round, and was starting to doubt if I had put any powder in the gun before adding shot. But in my mind I was just sure I had powder in it. I decide to try shooting it again. This time it fired.
Relieved, I carefully loaded again, banking the powder, and picking the flash hole, and walked on down where I had seem some squirrels, before. Finally got a chance at a big fox squirrel, while I was on the move. It was a fast shot, and I wondered if I had missed, but it went bang, without any hessitation, and I found the squirrel laying dead, when I walked up the the tree.
I loaded again, hunted my way home, and went to fire it, before going into the house, another flash in the pan. I had banked the powder and pricked the flashhole, I primed again and the gun went bang.
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This gun kills really good, when I can get it to go bang. But I am having 50% flashes in the pan. I am starting to think that maybe the flashhole is too small. By the way, I am also primming with FF.
The flash hole seems to be in the right spot, with the bottom of the hole, about an 1/8 inch off of the bottom of the pan on the large Siler Lock.
I have been trying to bank the load, but I have noticed that it's about impossible to keep the powder banked, unless you are very careful on how you carry the rifle, etc. This is too finikey for my taste.
Does this gun need the flash hold drilled out. It might be a 1/16 in dia, but maybe not. I havn't actually checked it.
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I believe that the best priming powder is 4f and 3f at a min. if you dont have 4f.That could very well be a big part of yer frustration. Also try to keep the priming in the outside part of the pan.I too am new to flinters,but they shure are fun.
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When you say you are "banking" the powder, I assume you mean the priming charge, but I'm not sure I know what you are meaning. Can you define "banking" for us?
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I notice that my guns fire best with a very small priming charge.
I only fill the pan 1/3 full; in I never "bank" it against the touchole. If I tip the powder in any direction It is to the far end of the pan from the touchhole, so tha it is not obscured. And I 'v elearned to prick the vent each and every time I set up a load.
Btw, I prime with FFg; others swear by FFFFg; I do what I d becauseas far as I can tell, the 18th c. French habitant primed with the same grade powder they shot. Your milage may vary.
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Touch hole should be no smaller than 1/16". Some like them at 5/64". Since its a loaner gun, I wouldn't do any drilling without permission from the owner, but you can check the diameter and see what you've got.
Don't bother with banking the powder, just fill the pan up to the bottom of the vent hole.
I've found that inserting my vent pick (a copper wire) into the vent, loading the piece and then withdrawing the pick seems to work for me.
Only other thing I can think of is how much pressure your using to seat the wad. You want it seated but you don't want to compact the powder by pounding on it repeatedly with the ramrod.
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Now you are starting to get the idea why a lot of folks prefer percussion.
The idea of picking the touch hole is not just to clear the hole, but also to open up a conical cavity in the powder charge so that there is more surface area for the priming charge to contact. Therefore, you need a wire, not something to just piddle around with the face of the vent.
I definitely agree that you need a nice size opening for the flash to go through. Most touch hole liners have way too small a hole in them as they come from the factory. Of course, it is easier to open one up, than to make it smaller.
I'd say not to worry about it too much until you get your own gun. Then you can start working with it and tune it the way it needs.
As far as the priming charge goes, just experiment with it until you find something that works. Agree that you want to keep it below the level of the vent hole. If you do bank it, it should be banked against the far side of the pan, away from the barrel.
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No, I am not going to drill a larger hole in a loaner gun. I am just trying to sort out my problems. By banking, I am talking about trying to bank the powder in the pan, opposite of the flashhole.
I do have a wire, and I did read about making a channel in the main charge, and I have tried that, but it doesn't seem to work very good for me at all.
The old timers must have had a bigger flash hole.
No, I am not really ramming the powder or shot, when I load, i am just pouring the powder in and pushing a card down on the powder, until I am sure it's seated on the powder, then pushing a 1/2" lubed wad down on the card, pouring in the shot, and then I usually cut a very small V in the over shot card to let air out and push it down onto the shot charge. I just firmly seat it, but i don't pound it.
Maybe I will try to slip in the wire vent pick into the vent hole, then pour in the main charge, and see if that helps.
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Correct me if I am wrong, but the idea is to have a channel going all the way accross the main charge, and that is why one used the vent pick?
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First and im assuming you are , but it doesn’t hurt to ask . You are using BP not a synthetic correct ?
A vent pick is used to clear cinders from the touch hole .
There is no need for the pick to go all the way through the main charge . Just into it alittle bit .
Your powder should never cover the flash hole . If it does you will get a slow or delayed ignition
Sounds to me “ and im guessing here “ but it sounds to me that if the flash hole is clear , your main charge is not settling . Hard to say why this happens or why it is happening with your rifle without knowing how the breech and flash hole align .
Through the years I have come to be a big believer in settling a charge . Basicly after I load the powder , I lightly thump the butt on the ground a couple times , before I load my patch and ball . I then
pick the flash hole . If I do not feel powder when I do that , I prime the pan and then tap the powder over to the flash hole. With the rifle leaned so as the powder is against the flash hole , I give the rifle a couple good taps so some of the 4 F flows into the flash hole . I then take my vent pick and push alittle into and through the flash hole .
I then close the frizzen and roll the rifle so as the rest of the pan powder is away from the flash hole .
I then open the frizzen and check to make sure the powder has moved away and that the flash hole still is open .
My rifle is so consistent that it’s a real surprise when I get a flash in the pan . Any Clatch is do to me getting lazy .
Infact I have won more then a couple consistency contests against cap locks.
I will stretch that and say that IMO a proper flintlock is far more consistent in the hands of an experienced shooter then a cap lock can ever be .
that’s my opinion after near 3 decades of shooting for the most part flintlocks only ..
When on the range or at a voooo, I would have to say I spend more time clearing caplock that wont fire then I do fiddling with a finicky flintlock..
I will say also ,that learning the flintlock can be a daunting task by yourself when you don’t have an experienced shooter who can look and tell you specifically , on the spot what is wrong .
Without that, all one can do is give advice and try to re-enforce the fact that once you get it all down , maintaining the flintlock so as to keep 99.99 % consistence will become second nature . It will load just as fast as any cap lock and will be more consistent in all weather situations . Its just a mater of learning the ins and outs
As to old priming practices .
I support the suggested idea that priming was done from the main horn ,even though I prefer to prime with 4F from a horn charger . In fact if one understands the British loading drill for the Bess , we find that the pan is primed with the very same powder that ends up going down the barrel .
That being said , I think there is a reason why this worked well
See back then powder was very inconstant in size . So while you had large grains , you also had small grains mixed in . everything from very fine grains , smaller the 4F to grains larger then 2 F .
Also the drilled touchholes were not simply a hole . Like most people think ..
The hole is often rather large . Large enough to many time self prime the pan . IE when the main charge is loaded some of that powder falls through to the pan .
In fact both Manton and Nock made self priming locks specifically for this purpose
The flash hole is also counter bored . In other words before the breech plug is installed , a cherry is used to drill a cup into the barrel wall around the flash hole . Thus moving the main charge closer to the pan , in that area . Thus not only improving ignition but also ignition speed
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If you can't see the powder thru the touch hole,it's to small :rotf ,Of course,your milage WILL vary!
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Take a look at this site. It should help.
http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured- ... iments.php (http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/pan-vent-experiments.php)
Bill
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Well, according to that site, banking the powder in the pan away from the flash hole is more or less an old wives tale, as the fastest times were with the powder next to the flash hole.
I think I am going to try some FFF and see how that works, in both the main charge and the pan.
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I'll toss my 2p in here at this point. ridjrunr makes a good point. Priming with FFFg or FFg can be iffy at best. I've always had very good results with FFFFg in the pan. Regardless of what shoot for a main charge. You can get away with FFFg or FFg in the pan if you open up the touch hole but, since this is a loaner I'd strongly recommend you get FFFFg for priming it should go a long way toward solving you problem. The gains of FFFg and especially FFg are so large that the flash they throw are probably having a hard time getting in to the main charge and the large grain of the main charge are not flowing into the channel of the touch hole so it is hard for them to meet up. :toast
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Sir Michael, I think you have some really good points.
I just got through shooting it a few more times.
On this occasion I decided to keep using 2F for the main charge, but primed with 3F and each time, I pricked the touch hole, and even tried to shove a few graniuals of 3F prime into the flash hole. I didn't have any flashes in the pan. I did have one failure to fire, when the priming powder didnot fire. The flint I have in there right now, is holding up good, and seems sharp. But maybe the flint had gotten dirty, with soote, so I wiped the flint with my thumb, and even though the frizzen looked clean I wiped it too.
Then I fired 3 more shots without any problems. Maybe, I am learning.
I hope to go squirrel hunting again this afternoon, late. I hope I get a couple of chances to bag another squirrel or two.
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Well, according to that site, banking the powder in the pan away from the flash hole is more or less an old wives tale, as the fastest times were with the powder next to the flash hole.
I think I am going to try some FFF and see how that works, in both the main charge and the pan.
ya well i can tell you this much , if you want a FFFFFFFFTTTTttboom put he powder over an the flash hole
there is always someone trying to exsplain things and then proclaiming one way isnt any better then another .
Especially when it comes to Bill knight . Who couldn’t figure out how to make even a cap lock reliable enough in bad weather and thus had to result to building the modern inlines as a way to achieve what his knowledge would not .
keep the powder away from the flashhole . its faster and more consistent .
but one can do what they like . We can learn the easy way or the hard way .
your problem isnt with speed of ignition its with ignition . the fire is not getting to the main charge
thats the fun thing about flintlocks . what works good in theory and may be shown in the shop , often works like dodo when you in the field .
Take the tests on the link .
Notice all these test were done in a controlled way . that’s very good . However not comparable unless you shoot the very same way .
Myself I have never seen a shooter hold a rifle perfectly horizontal . What ends up happening is the pan gets moved all around . Tilted from one side to the other while in the carry
The masters like manton , Nock , Pauly and Perdy all knew this . As such they dictated that the powder should NOT be up on the flash hole . They also dictated the location of the flash hole location for the best ignition performance./ not because they thought it was better but because they new it was better .
That information isn based on 10 . 20 or 30 years but from a 100 some years of evolutionary knowledge .
But as I said , there is a learning curve to the flintlock . So try different thing and then settle for what works good for you
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Well, I guess I will just keep trying for consistant booms instead of hisses. I went back out squirrel hunting late this afternoon. I loaded back up with 2F for the main charge. I used 3F in the pan. I used a full pan, which does leave the hole clear. I pricked the flash hole, and worked in a few grains of primming powder. And wiped the flint off.
I carried it for a couple of hours, but never go a good shot, so I fired it at a tin can, when I got back home. It fired first try.
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Very interesting thread. I think I can see why I had some of the problems I did this past summer with both my flinter pistols and also my matchlock. Next summer, I'll try some of the recommendations made here.
I had heard you don't want a large amount of primer in the pan (maybe about 1/3), but I hadn't heard to keep it away from the vent; it makes sense, though. Like Capt. mentioned he did--tapping to put a little primer in the touch hole--the old Korean matchlock loading drill said to do the exact same thing; however, it didn't mention re-tapping to put the rest of the primer to the other side--I'll have to try that next time.
Capt., were cherries put in 18th century barrels?
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Well, I have certainly had a good time, squirrel hunting with the Flintlock Fowler, this weekend. And I have been impressed with how effective a load of shot out of a long 20ga barrel driven by black powder, and no wad can be. I did not have time to really pattern it, but 80grs of 2f and equal volume of #6 shot seems to be very effective.
It seems like making a flintlock fire every time is part art and part common sense. They do demand attention to detail. And it seems that the smallest detail, can trip you up. One needs to be a fllintnapper, a mechanic, and maybe a little paranoid, when it comes to letting anything fowl you up, like a little soot on the flint, even if it's sharp, etc.
Maybe that's why the old Brown Bess has such a big lock on it.
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Sir Michael, I think you have some really good points.
I just got through shooting it a few more times.
On this occasion I decided to keep using 2F for the main charge, but primed with 3F and each time, I pricked the touch hole, and even tried to shove a few graniuals of 3F prime into the flash hole. I didn't have any flashes in the pan. I did have one failure to fire, when the priming powder didnot fire. The flint I have in there right now, is holding up good, and seems sharp. But maybe the flint had gotten dirty, with soote, so I wiped the flint with my thumb, and even though the frizzen looked clean I wiped it too.
Then I fired 3 more shots without any problems. Maybe, I am learning.
I hope to go squirrel hunting again this afternoon, late. I hope I get a couple of chances to bag another squirrel or two.
I gave up using FFG in my .62 smoothie years ago, and I seem to get just as fast, BUT, more consistant ignition with FFFG for the main charge.
In fact, I also only use FFFG to prime with now, because "I" just never could notice FFFFG working any better in the large locks of my trade guns.
To my way of thinking, the finer FFFG, as the main charge,... "might" just be a bit easier to ignite than using the coarser FFG (but I have no way to prove this).
The only comparison I can make is,.... other flintlock shooter's seem to think using FFFFG in the pan ignites easier and more consistantly than FFFG,... so who knows, maybe the finer powder (as a main charge) ignites a bit easier (and more consistantly?) then the coarser FFG powder.
One thing's for certain,... each riflegun is an "individual" unto it's self, and you've received some good advice from other flintlock shooters here.
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If you decide to enlarge the vent , use a number drill rather than a fractional drill bit. Look at the website below, you can see there are 5 sizes of number drills between 1/16" and 5/64" , I use a #51 for my flinchers.
http://www.csgnetwork.com/drillsizeconvert.html (http://www.csgnetwork.com/drillsizeconvert.html)
Cheers Bob.
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Yea, the size of the vent hole has got to be part of the problem. I have a wire vent pick, I purchased from Track of the Wolf, and it is only .051 in diameter and I can just get it into the flash hole, I mean it's tight. So that Flash hole is very likely to be 10 thousands under a 1/16".
A #51 bit at .0670 just might be about right. I doubt I will drill this one, but when I get my own flintlock, that will probably be the first thing I do.
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Sir Michael, I think you have some really good points.
I just got through shooting it a few more times.
On this occasion I decided to keep using 2F for the main charge, but primed with 3F and each time, I pricked the touch hole, and even tried to shove a few graniuals of 3F prime into the flash hole. I didn't have any flashes in the pan. I did have one failure to fire, when the priming powder didnot fire. The flint I have in there right now, is holding up good, and seems sharp. But maybe the flint had gotten dirty, with soote, so I wiped the flint with my thumb, and even though the frizzen looked clean I wiped it too.
Then I fired 3 more shots without any problems. Maybe, I am learning.
I hope to go squirrel hunting again this afternoon, late. I hope I get a couple of chances to bag another squirrel or two.
I gave up using FFG in my .62 smoothie years ago, and I seem to get just as fast, BUT, more consistant ignition with FFFG for the main charge.
In fact, I also only use FFFG to prime with now, because "I" just never could notice FFFFG working any better in the large locks of my trade guns.
To my way of thinking, the finer FFFG, as the main charge,... "might" just be a bit easier to ignite than using the coarser FFG (but I have no way to prove this).
The only comparison I can make is,.... other flintlock shooter's seem to think using FFFFG in the pan ignites easier and more consistantly than FFFG,... so who knows, maybe the finer powder (as a main charge) ignites a bit easier (and more consistantly?) then the coarser FFG powder.
One thing's for certain,... each riflegun is an "individual" unto it's self, and you've received some good advice from other flintlock shooters here.
I started out using 2F because I had read how it's better in damp weather, then 3F, and didn't want to get hooked on 4F because I read that it would turn to mush very easily. And I wanted to use just one horn. Plus I have read that pressures are lower with 2F then 3F, but I may just switch over to 3F completely, might be more reliable, and I would be back to one horn. However, I might buy some 4F for priming just to see how that works as it might be more forgiving if one"s flint doesn't throw as many sparks, as might be needed, for the courser powder.
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Capt., were cherries put in 18th century barrels
yep . From what I understand it actually dates to the 17th century and was first use on wheel locks and snap hence
let make something else clearer here . i dont re tasp so as to bank the powder . I rool the lock over so as to insure the powder is NOT over the flash hole . its practicaly impossable to keep the powder banked to the outside of the pan .
try it some time . without thinking prime and walk . then check you prime . what you will find is that your powder has leveled itself out ." unless you roll the rifle before you open the pan ."
IMO this will not effect your consistancy IF the rifle was built proper .
but let that powder get over the flash hole and thus exsperiance a fuse burn LMAO . after that you will do just about anything to keep it from happaning ever again
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2 F has a slower burn rate the 3F . Thus it has slightly shallower spike and thus lower breech pressure .
3 F burns faster because of the smaller grain size . It has a steeper pressure spike the 2F and thus more breech pressure .
What you can do is cut back 10 to 15 grains and use 3F so as to get into the relative pressure of a 2F charge
A wet charge is a wet charge doesn’t mater 2 or 4 F . if your 4F is showing signs of drawing moisture . The 2F is also drawing moisture. 4 F will show it more because its finer and more surface area for the moisture to attack .
So learn to protect the pan and keep as much of that moisture out . If you can keep a 4f charge dray . You will be able to keep a 2F charge dry
If not , then it doesn’t mater whats in the pan , its all going to be wet to some extent
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I'm new but I have found some things that work. First, in my guns, more powder in the pan ignites the charge better than less. Second, banking does not seem to matter and according to the above site and tests may actually be slower than just a good level pan of priming powder. I prime with 4F and the tiniest spark makes it go WOOSH! Now the simple "biggie" is in my experience, this: the FLINT! Every time I have any of my three flinters start that misfire crap, it is the flint. I may not get many shots per flint but a fresh sharp one totally eliminates any misfires for me. Now if you are literally getting a big flash in the pan, it might not be the flint, but new sharp flints make my guns go bang. I did drill out a touch hole to 5/64ths a few weeks back but on a rifled barrel my accuracy went to crap. Replacing the liner with one not drilled out restored accuracy immediately. Try more powder in the pan and go to 4F and use a new flint and see what happens.
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I'm not a scientist or chemist(ask ANY of my college professors!)but from what I've been told over the years by those who are, 4F is the only size that isn't graphite coated for moister resistance, that's why I prime with 3F when hunting,and it transfers over to match shooting also. Not sure it makes a difference,but if standing on my head while singing the Star Spangled Banner makes me a better shot, cover yer ear's boy's, I'ma singin"!
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I'm new but I have found some things that work. First, in my guns, more powder in the pan ignites the charge better than less. Second, banking does not seem to matter and according to the above site and tests may actually be slower than just a good level pan of priming powder. I prime with 4F and the tiniest spark makes it go WOOSH! Now the simple "biggie" is in my experience, this: the FLINT! Every time I have any of my three flinters start that misfire crap, it is the flint. I may not get many shots per flint but a fresh sharp one totally eliminates any misfires for me. Now if you are literally getting a big flash in the pan, it might not be the flint, but new sharp flints make my guns go bang. I did drill out a touch hole to 5/64ths a few weeks back but on a rifled barrel my accuracy went to crap. Replacing the liner with one not drilled out restored accuracy immediately. Try more powder in the pan and go to 4F and use a new flint and see what happens.
Mark, have you ever tried any of Rich Pierce Missouri long trek flints?
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when you drill out a liner , you get a drop in bore pressure do to the larger hole .
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Beaverman, No I have not tried any of the Rich Pierce flints. Like I said, I have only been at this flint thing about two seasons. I have been using Tom Fuller flints from TOW. If there is something better that will last longer then I am all for it. Honestly, I am not getting more than a dozen or two good reliable shots from my flints in any of my three flinters.
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mark , you need to learn to napp your flints . you should be getting 50 to 75 and sometimes over 100 good solide shots from every flint
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Cap, Yeah, I know I need to learn to napp. I have been showed how but I stink at it. Sometimes I get a few more shots after napping and sometimes I just make it worse. At only a dollar or so per flint, I just figure that is part of the expense of shooting these things. If I get 20 shots per flint, that is still pretty cheap shooting. I will however try to learn to napp and do a better job but when I go hunting that baby is going to have a new flint in it. :-)
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I had the advantage of some good advice from veteran flintlock shooters but still it was a hard way to learn. However, now I rarely fire a cap gun and find my flintlock grows more reliable every outing. graybeard
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Has anyone here ever done a pictorial tutorial on knapping (kind of like a build-along)? I have knapped some arrowheads a bit, but I have never tried doing my own flints. It might be a helpful service to flintlock newbies (I know it would help me).
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And helpfull to me also
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This might be of some help.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/nessy357/th_MVI_0018.jpg) (http://http)
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yep thats about it .
the only thing i would add is to remember when you sharpen a flint , the material comes off the bottom side . as such if your lock prefers bevel up then the flint will need to be flipped every now and then .
i also know a couple folks who carry small diamond files to touch up the edge .
But personally , what Nessy shows is the basic simple way to start
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Lastmohecan, there may be an issue with the placement of the liner and the breech plug and there may be some work done there to insure a clear channel, you cannot do anything with a loanner but if your new gun does not work sometimes a V has to be cut into the face of the plug to connect the charge and the vent. This would not be a real issue, just tell Jackie to double check this configuration in case he has helpers doing some of his smithing
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I checked the vent again, by sticking a 1/16" drill bit in the hole, and that is what it is, as I just slipped it in by hand, and it would pass all of the way to the other side of the barrel, so it is clear.
I have not had a misfire since I switched to 3f for primer powder, and except for one failure to fire the pan of powder, and that was caused by a dirty flint, I believe. I hope to go hunting or at least find some time to shoot it some more, this weekend.
If it was mine, I would probaby take it out to a #51 at least, but I recond I will leave it alone since I intend to send it back.
I may get some 4f and see how that works, but for now, I am stuck with 3f.
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You may find the 3f works as well, I like it particularly in damp weather but I made my vent hole 5/64 and coned a bit on the inside, with large sparky locks many use this size hole or maybe a size smaller, some a size bigger.
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All my touch holes are 5/64" except my Brown Bess which has a 3/32" hole. In a musket, the most important thing is to go off every time. Of course, I use 2f for both primer and main charge during reenactments. For range/hunting/target shooting, I use 2f main charge and 3f prime.
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While I'd like to use FFg in my main charge, with my .40 Pedersoli I get fewer flash-in-the-pans when the main charge is FFFg.
More convenient to prime w FFFg, don't have to mess with separate horn.
However, Swiss NulB is the fastest prime I know. On humid days, down by the Clinton River in SE Michigan, my pan fouling can get pretty moist, may affect the NulB
But to minimize Flash-in-pan I find loading with FFFg good, also prick the touchole with a sharp copper wire until I feel it grind into the charge.
The prime is going to bank or not, however it feels, IMHO, as you move around with the primed rifle.