Traditional Muzzleloading Association
TMA Events and Activites => TMA Postal Shoots => Topic started by: Nessmuk on February 23, 2024, 05:13:42 PM
-
Proposed Changes to the 2024 Postal Match Rules
I, for one, am not a fan of Off-Hand shooting. At 68 years old, my eyesight has worsened and my right hip is weak but I still love to shoot. Many of us have similar problems so i propose the following shooting positions be authorized:
1. Off-Hand
2. Standing with Cross-Sticks
3. Kneeling or Kneeling with cross-Sticks
4. Prone or Prone with Cross-Sticks or Primitive Rest.
5. Sitting or Sitting with Cross-Sticks
6. Sitting at a bench or Table with a Primitive rest
Defining a "Primitive Rest", Any rest that is non-adjustable preferably homemade. Something a Pre-1840 marksman or hunter would use (Sorry, your Lead sled is definitely out)
All other rules remain pretty much the same.
Reply with your thoughts, approval, disapproval or opinion.
-
Nessmuk, I like this idea especially those with cross sticks and or primitive rest.
-
I am hoping to get back in the game this year assuming life does not get in the way again. I agree with your proposal. :hairy At 75 the guns are getting heavy and tend to weave and bob. Had cataract surgery last year so the eyes are fine but good eyes watching the end of the barrel move around does not make for good shooting. :bigsmile: :hairy
-
After last year's lack of participation, I probably shouldn't say anything, but I am 74 and have my ailments, but I still prefer offhand for distances of 25 yards, maybe props or sticks for longer distances.
IOW I would be for setting up different circumstances for occasional months, but keep all on the same page for the shoots.
Thanks,
Nessmuk
-
Would we all participate in the same group. IE kneeling with x sticks.
Or can I shoot off hand, my preferred, much more like hunting practice for me.
Since this is for fun I'll shoot however..
Looking forward to it
Kevin
-
More clarification, shooting position would be up to the individual shooter.. I would report scores by shooting position, however.
-
Would we all participate in the same group. IE kneeling with x sticks.
Or can I shoot off hand, my preferred, much more like hunting practice for me.
Since this is for fun I'll shoot however..
Looking forward to it
Kevin
If I get down on my knees, and IF I get back up I'm not walking for days! shoot from the bench? I'd be in for that! :yessir:
-
Would we all participate in the same group. IE kneeling with x sticks.
Or can I shoot off hand, my preferred, much more like hunting practice for me.
Since this is for fun I'll shoot however..
Looking forward to it
Kevin
If I get down on my knees, and IF I get back up I'm not walking for days! shoot from the bench? I'd be in for that! :yessir:
Beav - Sounds like you are getting old, kid.
-
[/quote]
If I get down on my knees, and IF I get back up I'm not walking for days! shoot from the bench? I'd be in for that! :yessir:
[/quote]
Looks to me you'd better get out in the back yard and practice snapping in old boy.
-
Would we all participate in the same group. IE kneeling with x sticks.
Or can I shoot off hand, my preferred, much more like hunting practice for me.
Since this is for fun I'll shoot however..
Looking forward to it
Kevin
If I get down on my knees, and IF I get back up I'm not walking for days! shoot from the bench? I'd be in for that! :yessir:
Beav - Sounds like you are getting old, kid.
AND WORE OUT! trying not to let the old man in but there's days he's winning the battle!
-
If I get down on my knees, and IF I get back up I'm not walking for days! shoot from the bench? I'd be in for that! :yessir:
[/quote]
Looks to me you'd better get out in the back yard and practice snapping in old boy.
[/quote]
Ya know Hank, that's just one thing a marine never forgets, especially if your last 10 months you were TDY to Edson Range at Pendleton as a range coach! now if I got down in the prone position you'ld have to wake me up!
-
Sorry, this is a long read. I'm not a Debbie Downer and this isn't the rant of a grumpy old geezer. It is, however, my honest reply to Nessmuk's recent request for comments on the postal matches. In a nutshell, I don't see the point of continuing something we call a "match" when it isn't one. Each month a few guys venture out as often as they please to shoot an unlimited number of targets, and then they cherry pick the best one and submit it. This is not a match. IMHO this practice actually discourages participation. I think a postal shoot should differ from a real shoot in just two ways - you aren't physically shoulder to shoulder (which should lessen the pressure and improve your score), and you get to choose the day and time you shoot (which should also be a benefit). Be honest with yourself, anything else, shooting then choosing your best of the day target does not reveal your prowess. For any of us to believe that is nuts. We all have life demands and health issues. I'm 77 and arthritis is playing Hobb with my hands. I find it very difficult to hold and operate a handgun (think CCW ramifications). My shooting this year isn't as good as before, but I accept it and deal with it as best I can. In recent years we have had three NMDs who have each done their best to pique interest in the postals, but try as they may it hasn't happened. They have offered a varied menu of targets, distances, and positions. There have been 25, 50, and 100 yard bulls, 25 yard rondys, and (for me at least, the most fun) a 25+50+100 yard challenge match in 2020. Did YOU try that, and if not, why not? Shooting positions of standing, sitting, kneeling, prone and benchrest have been offered. What has been the participation? Each year usually about a dozen guys throw their hats in the ring, but the result in the last three years have been nothing to crow about. Even though there is no cost to compete and the postal is open to everyone, not just the 4440+ TMA members, never more than 6 guys have shot 4 or more times out of the seven postal shooting months each year. To make matters worse is the fact that there is nearly zero chatter on the forum. The postal section is sterile. What else can a NMD possibly offer to motivate people? I can't justify using more of my powder, lead, and especially my limited and dwindling supply of caps to shoot in what I don't believe is competition. Once again, I publicly thank Ohio Joe, Rob, and Nessmuk for their efforts, but I believe it's a lost cause to continue the postal. I do, however have a suggestion. Replace it with a new forum section, perhaps call it "shooters showcase." This could be where any interested shooter can display his all-time best targets and tell, maybe even show, us the gun and the load used and how he did it. P.S. I really hope that this year a couple dozen shooters prove me wrong and the postal is wildly successful.
-
I am afraid that Miner 49er is right, and it is not just on this forum. I used to shoot the Muzzle Blasts (NMLRA) monthly postal shoots until they went away, mostly for lack of participation. And other sites I have been on have closed down. I see photos of various shoots and there is a sea of gray with very few young or middle aged folks in them. Traditional Archery is not as bad, but there is a similar trend.
At the same time, I will participate as long as I can. I also have responsibilities where I need to be home, but I can still squeeze out a few hours per month to burn some powder and the postal shoots are an excellent way to do so. Carol encourages me to go, I think just so she doesn't have me moping around the house from not smelling that burned sulfur smell! :laffing
Anyway, I am grateful to Joe, Rob and Nessmuk for all the work they have done and certainly hope the shoots will continue, even if I am shooting offhand while everyone else is prone....
:hairy
~Kees~
-
Another thought or two. Working with Nessmuk's several shooting positions there still could be a way to turn the postal shoots into a match. Whatever type target is to be shot, bull or rondy, each competitor would print just one each from the master targets that Nessmuk would post online each month. One of the master targets would be marked Sighter and the other Scoring/position. Each competitor chooses the position he wants to use and then fires unlimited shots at the Sighter until he's ready to shoot the one for submission. He shoots his five shots on the Scoring target, writes the position used and other info like date, caliber, etc. then posts it. If the Sighter is better than the Scoring, that's just the way it goes, can't post it. One and done, no cream of the crop silliness, and a real way to see how well you shoot. FWIW I believe while the multiple positions are a good idea and might be a way to include more shooters, I also think there could be be too much fractioning resulting in one or two guys in several categories. I agree with one guy here, I tried sitting with cross sticks once, four years ago, and it took me quite a while to stand up to reload. Never again. 😄
-
Sorry, just some random thoughts amidst a bout of insomnia.
Since joining the TMA, I've not shot the postal matches. For many years I have been putting most of my flintlock time into teaching the class I jokingly refer to as "Intro to Flintlocks" (last year I managed to get 112+ shooters to spend an afternoon learning about and shooting flintlocks, and we might get a few new ML shooters from the bunch).
But I don't see that bunch as being interested in postal matches as they have been traditionally run. There are a couple reasons for this. One big one is that may of them don't seem willing to put in the time and effort to shoot what--no matter how we arrange it--is essentially a bullseye match. These are shooters who grew out of the era of action shooting: IPSC instead of bullseye, three gun matches instead of Camp Perry, and Second Chance. Some other reasons are that the idea of a solo activity seems almost foreign to them, and that no one seems to believe the other shooters can be trusted no not game the system as The Miner '49er wrote (or even outright cheat). There is no immediacy of competition, you have to wait til sometime next month to see how you did--and these are folks who aren't good at waiting a couple hours to see their standing in a tournament.
I'm not sure how to address that. One way might--mind you, I say might--be to figure out a way to get folks in an area together to shoot the postal match as a group. That would require a fair degree of coordination, and might not even be doable. If a way could be found for groups of 3 or more to meet up sometime in the month (to be arranged by them), shoot the postal match (and they could sign off on each others' targets). . . well, that might drum up some interest.
It would also allow for using some reactive targets that might get more interest. I've been using old rotten red clay bricks at 100 yards as targets for a speed/accuracy/power demonstration as part of the class. Five or ten bricks, set up at 100 yards or so, shot with full-power hunting loads: hit the brick right and you get a cloud of reddish-orange dust. Lots of fun, and most of my students will want to give it a try after some familiarization with a flinter, but not a match that could easily be done as a postal match. . . .
But Ohio Joe, LongWalker, and RollingB could arrange a get-together some Sunday afternoon, shoot the match (with each other as scorekeepers, and to restore some immediacy of competition). Logistics would be a pain: there would be some serious traveling involved.
Another option could be to arrange to have at least some of the matches done as part of the aggregate at local matches. Not something that would work for everyone, but I know of several clubs that could be talked into this. (Heck, my old club would casually add a match as a fundraiser for someone, or for variety, or even if someone just wanted to see how well folks could shoot their C&B revolvers at 100 yards. All it took was asking, providing targets, and probably volunteering some time as a range officer, running kids' games, etc.)
-
That's a pretty interesting idea, Long Walker. I see it as a way to drum up new postal shooters, but one hitch, though, would be that the guys who shoot each year (4 or more times out of 7) live in seven states, AZ, ID, NJ, OH, OK, MN, PA. Wouldn't want to lose the regular shooters. I'm sure Nessmuk appreciates your ideas and maybe more guys will make suggestions.
-
Don't stop now. we've had some good ideas put forward. Agree or disagree let me know your feelings, PM me if you'd rather not post it.
I know I can't satisfy everyone but I'll do my best to satisfy most.
Nessmuk
-
Went to the range yesterday to shoot targets. Were they TMA targets? Nope. Was I competing? Nope. I love to shoot my smokepole. If I didn't love it, I wouldn't do it. Because I hate cleaning the dang things. Sometimes terms like match, competition, best shooter, instills a note of fear in some people. I hate seeing bragging rights being used as a prize. Post results as they are received. That would give more time to chat with the other participants about what gun they used, what load they used, maybe which gun they might use the next time. IIRC, when Ohio Joe was NMD, he posted the results as he received them. Giving people more time to bs with others about their targets and things associated with it. When posting the results at the last of the month, you already are looking forward to next month, and have forgotten about the last month. I know what you're thinking.If the results are posted as received, it might scare somebody off. I don't think it can get much worse. There's only room for improvement. I don't think the guys I've shot with are quitters. And I don't think they are fearful at all. They're like me. They love it and they'll continue to do it. Post the targets and the scores and if the participants are concerned about who finished first, second , and so forth, they can figure it out. I'm only interested in seeing a bunch of targets and scores which means some guys were out there having fun. The only bad thing about me expressing all my opinions is this. My membership expires in June of this year. I was going to quit shooting the postal and not renew my membership, but now I might have to hang on a while longer. Thanks to Nessmuk, and all the previous NMD's.
-
My membership expires in June of this year. I was going to quit shooting the postal and not renew my membership, but now I might have to hang on a while longer. Thanks to Nessmuk, and all the previous NMD's.
N-O-O-O! :o Say it's not so, what would become of TMA without you! :scared:
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
~Kees~
-
My membership expires in June of this year. I was going to quit shooting the postal and not renew my membership, but now I might have to hang on a while longer. Thanks to Nessmuk, and all the previous NMD's.
N-O-O-O! :o Say it's not so, what would become of TMA without you! :scared:
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
~Kees~
And I would second the thought. Please stick around, if only for another decade or so.
John (Bigsmoke)
-
As far as competition goes, I'm just here for the party.
Really when I did compete I would shoot the Rev challenge cold bore then shot my 5 shots. No cherry picking , what I shot was what I shot.
I plan on doing the same this yr.
I just want to have a fun friendly shindig. Something we can all chat about and hopefully encourage new members to participate.
But if y'all wanna get serious well I can play that too.
Kevin
-
Right on, KDubs, I'm with you. To me, shoot the Rev Morgan's mini shingle, then 3 to 5 sighter shots before the monthly target(s), then one, maybe two five shot targets for score. Post those two, average their points, and that's that. Quick, easy, uses about 16 loads and you're on your way home to start swabbing.
-
Personally, I am a keep it simple person. To me there are two ways to shoot. Off hand or shooting sticks. It does not matters whether you are standing, kneeling, laying down or sitting at a table. What matter is whatever way you can comfortably shoot at your age without making the shooting a pain in the you know what.
Not sure what the Rev Morgan shoot is but two targets averaged out would probably work except the averaging workload falls on Nessmuck. Or have two categories, one for offhand and one for sticks and you can shoot either or both. One target is fine with me too and as far as anyone cheating who cares. A cheater only hurts himself. For hunting I always rely on a rest anyway, so sticks are better practice. Just my thoughts. :bigsmile:
-
Rev. Morgan? I thought he was a Captain! It's nice to hear folks are still trying to hit that shingle. I'm still trying to hit it with a .40 cal.
Keep the Ideas, suggestions, preferences, pet peeves and gripes coming, I've almost finalized a plan to satisfy most everyone, I plan to post it Saturday.
-
Well, I took what KDubs and dmarsh meant when they wrote "Rev" to mean Revolutionary, so that's what I said. I will bet, though, that Capt. Morgan and his men often prayed like reverends going into their battles. I DO revere Morgan, even more than Paul, that other Revere! :laffing
-
Just so everyone understands, I do not believe that shooting multiple targets is gaming the system nor cheating. It is what the TMA has allowed for quite some time. To my mind of thinking that turns what I think of as a match into chaos and it discourages new shooters. Some would think how can I compete and not look foolish. Maybe if one guy shoots several targets and cherry picks he could note "best of my 5" and someone else could write on his "1 of 1", "1 of 2." Good luck, Nessmuk, this is why you get the BIG bucks! :lol sign
-
I do not believe that shooting multiple targets is gaming the system nor cheating either. What I meant was someone entering targets and saying they shot them off hand when they used sticks, leadsled or other aids to shoot. Sorry for the confusion there. :bigsmile:
-
I don't believe multiple target's is a problem either, I just prefer to see how good ( or bad) my first 5 are . And that's my score.
It's a challenge for me , that's all.
And Im ok with a supported or unsupported class.
Kevin
-
Sorry for straying off the subject, but I'd like to thank Kee's, and Big Smoke for the words of encouragement. Hey Bigsmoke, do you know something that I don't know about my longevity here on earth ? DECADES ???
-
Well, Tom, here is how I figure it.
Right now, it looks like I have you by about 8 years, and I am planning on sticking around for another score (you know, four score and years). That will put me at 98, which is a pretty good time to check out. Of course, my mom said many times that she was going to see her 100th birthday, but she left early at only 95.
So, with all that being said, you should have at least another decade of shooting time left on the clock. Hopefully, more. But, you just gotta stop jaywalking. :laffing :laffing
John (Bigsmoke)
-
Got ya (I think). :hairy
-
do you know something that I don't know about my longevity here on earth ? DECADES ???
I bought a lifetime subscription to Backwoodsman Magazine 20 years ago,when they were trying to get money for some extra projects. I noticed with the last issue that the expiration date of my subscription was next March! I hope that isn't a sign of something. :lol sign
~Kees~
(a Dutch name, pronounced like American case, as a case of beer)
-
dmarsh, responding to your reply #22 in this section, go to my original post on 2/12/23 "Are you up to a Revolutionary sized personal challenge?" in the Long Range Muzzleloading section and follow that thread. Give it a try, or if you're like me, many, many tries. This tests what a guy is made of. Good luck.
-
Hot damn. Now I know what the Rev Morgan Shingle means. I'm going to give it a try if the weather ever gets better. Either too cold or raining cats and dogs. In the meantime, I need to make up a target for me to shoot. :yessir: :bigsmile:
-
I'm going to give it a try if the weather ever gets better. Either too cold or raining cats and dogs.
Here also. I had thought of going to the range today despite the rain, but wimped out. I'll regret that when the temperatures are in the upper 90s!
~Kees~