Traditional Muzzleloading Association
Shooting Traditional Firearms and Weapons => General Interest => Topic started by: KDubs on November 12, 2020, 10:58:57 PM
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well i was able to get out for a little more shooting today. still working up a load.
some things i have learned.
I learned Do not drill out the nipple. i have several #11 nipples that came with my .54.
One nipple in-particular would always seem to plug after 2-3 shots so i thought i'll just open that little exit hole up a scoosh. Bad idea..
now i have a self cocking rifle. the hammer blew back to full cock on a 75 gr FFg Goex charge. blew the cap off too which then burned a hole in my bench blanket. arrgh . That has since been replaced with a stock nipple without incident.
I have learned the the Gatofeo lube i made and dipped the ticking strips into to soak rather than rub on , had a heavy coating once dry and even though i swabbed between shots i was getting progressively heavier fouling.
By the time i got to #9, I could hardly stuff a 015 ticking patch and .530 ball down. then two misfires, removed the nipple and ran a pipe cleaner into the ante chamber, recapped and had a quick hangfire. End of testing for today.
Had a few cleaning swab patches hang up in the breech having to wedge my brass T handle rod between two trees to break it loose.
Tonight i made some more strips with a thinner Gatofeo application. i had substituted buffalo tallow for mutton tallow , could that be the issue?? i feel it was due to the heavy lube. more testing to come.
I have learned I can start a PRB with the flat of my knife and that I need a real knife. doesn't seem right cutting patches with a sportsman channel multi tool. Going antiquing tomorrow with my understanding and supportive wife.
I have learned that i need to stick to a loading routine and not get distracted, too many balls, patch types, thicknesses and lubes laying on the bench lead to confusion. did I swab?, which patch did I load?? etc. keep it simple. By the time i was done i really had very little usable data because I lost track of what I was doing.
Well I'm sure there's still more to learn but that's it for now.
thoughts and comments welcome.
kevin
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Kevin,
I learned this back in the days of playing with hot rods, especially when tuning on them. You should only change one thing at a time. Period. If you are working on carburetor jetting, you worked with one size jets at a time. And you only had one size jets on the table. You put them into the carburetors, put them back together, and go test the car. Repeat as necessary.
and then, there is the most important tool in your tool chest, a pen and a notebook.
The KISS formula works real well if you apply it. Keep it simple, sweetie!!! Label everything, only work with one thing at a time. And write down your results. And only change one thing at a time. Easy, peeasy.
John (Bigsmoke)
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Kevin, Don't let it worry you. We've all been there. The only thing I learned in my first few attempts to work up a good load was:
POWDER, PATCH, BALL.
AND
How to pull a dry ball.
One step at time, just like Big smoke says.
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What John said! :hairy
Plus more details are needed,.... what powder/s are you using, what brand percussion caps are you using, have you tried using "sloppy wet spit patches" to load with?
Traditional muzzleloaders are simple creatures,.... unless the shooter tries using modern complicated methods and components in them. :bl th up
Attempting to use,.... the latest technical whizz-bang lubes, and measuring balls and patch material done to the 0.0001", and loading with artificial black powder,.... can (all to often) lead to dismal results and frustrating problems.
NOTE:.... I'm not accusing you of doing any the above, but IF you are, then the advice I offer below might be of some help.
Personally, I stick with the old (traditional) methods and components that were available 200 years ago as best I can, and have very few problems,.... and, as long as I continue to get sub 3" groups at 100 yards with my rifles, I'm a happy man. :bl th up
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I, Too, underscore the single issue at a time approach...as I've aged (especially) I cannot, keep too many balls in the air at once...
And if I AM successful and juggling two, I'll forget what one of the 2 was!! :Doh!
I agree a pen and tablet are your best friend when starting out...
Ne'r shot or owned a "capgun" so I have nothing to share there... PA was flint only, when I lived there... I did buy a cheap Knight inline for hunting MD and sold it here for less then the scope alone was worth plus a potful of Accessories...
Alas, the temptation is STRONG to vary a lot of things at once and cross your fingers, eyes and toes...
If'n you got 9 shots, w/o swabbing, that sounds rather decent IMO..
Remember: ONE variable at a time... patch thickness, record, Ball size, record, load amount and type, record, etc, etc ad naseum... :bigsmile:
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Kevin, Don't let it worry you. We've all been there. The only thing I learned in my first few attempts to work up a good load was:
POWDER, PATCH, BALL.
AND
How to pull a dry ball.
One step at time, just like Big smoke says.
:hairy :hairy :applaud
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KDubs
Here are some more "recipes" for lubes. Just more fodder to cloud the shooting but good reading when you can't get out to "play".
doggoner
http://castpics.net/dpl/index.php/the-library/bullet-lubes/128-lube-recipes
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?58-Boolit-Lube-!
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OK so I'm using Goex Ffg with CCI magnum caps.
I was swabbing between each shot, started with just a dry piece of ticking but buy the 5th shot i had to change to spit to avoid the stuck jag/patch issue i had. The fouling was pretty thick almost a tar consistency . probably the reason for a stuck swab patch.
since i want to hunt with this hawken i wanted to use a lube rather than spit with the thinking that i would use lube for a day in the woods not spit.
I'm using home made GatoFeo but i substituted Buffalo tallow for the mutton. an issue ?? After watching RobD rubbing and heating the Gatofeo into the the patch i kinda figure my lube was just too thick on the patch as i had dipped the strips and let them soak up the hot lube.
left a pretty thick paste on the patch.
So thus forth and there Hensley heretofore i plan to use a simple spit patch whilst working on thyne load. I will start with a.530 ball and 015 ticking since i found a 010 muslin patch was burnt and ripped to shreds with loads over 65gr .
and i'll start over at 50 gr and work that up changing only the charge .
thanks for help the everyone.
kevin
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Here are some more "recipes" for lubes. Just more fodder to cloud the shooting but good reading when you can't get out to "play".
doggoner
http://castpics.net/dpl/index.php/the-library/bullet-lubes/128-lube-recipes
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?58-Boolit-Lube-!
[/quote]
Wow who knew there were so many recipes for lube.
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OK so I'm using Goex Ffg with CCI magnum caps.
Those are both good! :hairy
I was swabbing between each shot, started with just a dry piece of ticking but buy the 5th shot i had to change to spit to avoid the stuck jag/patch issue i had. The fouling was pretty thick almost a tar consistency . probably the reason for a stuck swab patch.
One of the general rules for these muzzleloaders is to NEVER run a dry patch down a fouled bore,.... which you've obviously found out the reason "why". :bl th up
since i want to hunt with this hawken i wanted to use a lube rather than spit with the thinking that i would use lube for a day in the woods not spit.
About the closest thing to "spit" for a lube, is a fine natural oil, such as mink oil, or bear oil.
One of the things most here all agree on is,.... a spit patch can create a "rust ring" in the breech of a muzzleloader, if left there for extended periods of time (such as when hunting). :bl th up
I'm using home made GatoFeo but i substituted Buffalo tallow for the mutton. an issue ?? After watching RobD rubbing and heating the Gatofeo into the the patch i kinda figure my lube was just too thick on the patch as i had dipped the strips and let them soak up the hot lube.
left a pretty thick paste on the patch.
I'll be up front and admit I'm not a user of Gatofeo Lube, nor have I ever tried using it.
One of the ingredients of Gatefeo that I (potentially) have a problem with is the "canning wax" (paraffin) which is a petroleum product (which for years, has been a no-no in the bores of muzzleloaders)
One of the by-products of using a petroleum based lube is, it produces a "thick (tar-like?) paste", much like you describe on your patches.
But, for those shooters who make up and use Gatefeo for lube and it works good for them, who am I to knock a lube I've never even tried. :) :bl th up :shake
Whale oil was a known patch lube for centuries, as was plain ol' "tallow". :bl th up :bl th up
Lots of old muzzleloaders had a hole bored near the rear of their stock, specifically to hold "tallow". :bl th up
As for myself, I have pretty much settled on lamb's tallow for a patch lube when hunting, although I do have a goodly amount of bear oil and mink oil also on hand. :bl th up
So thus forth and there Hensley heretofore i plan to use a simple spit patch whilst working on thyne load. I will start with a.530 ball and 015 ticking since i found a 010 muslin patch was burnt and ripped to shreds with loads over 65gr .
If the load you're using is an accurate one, I wouldn't pay much attention to the condition of the spent patches.
I know this might go against conventional thinking, but who can argue against "bullseyes"? :bl th up
and i'll start over at 50 gr and work that up changing only the charge .
thanks for help the everyone.
kevin
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Kevin, John Shorb passed on a tidbit of information in such a subtle way it may go overlooked, but that little tid bit is almighty Important!
"Change only one thing at a time, and write it down" ......The K.I.S.S. method is by far the best method I've ever come across, period.
Changing one thing at a time, testing that "one" thing, evaulate "one" thing for any improvement, if any improvement was present, and then write those improvements down. Keep it Simple Sweetie, it'll keep ya out of trouble.
And, Study your range notes.
Uncle Russ...
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Gato Feo #1 requires the use of mutton/lamb tallow, as expressed by the lube's creator, Mr. Gato Feo. The GF ingredients must be concocted (double boiler melted together) within the correct component weights. GF needs to be rubed into and then heat gunned into the weave of the patch cloth, which needs to be cotton or linen that's been washed to remove any sizing (starch).
As others have mentioned, make one load component change at a time and give that change a fair shake before moving on to another variation.
Ain't all this stuff fun?! :o ::) 8) ;D :wave
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KDubs, Most of the lubes cited in the above links are for cast bullets and centerfire cartridges, e.g., Felix Lube and Darr's Lube. Although some will work with "greaser" cast bullets and BP in such cartridges, it's far easier to use something much simpler, like saliva for instance, in ML's. Then too, if you prefer a grease lube, google Stumpy's Moose Snot, which you can easily make and which works just as well if you substitute canola, peanut, or olive oil for castor oil as per the original recipe. I can get at least a dozen shots before I need to swab the bore when I use it. For a wet lube, 1 part water : 6 parts Ballistol (and maybe 1 part 90% isopropyl alcohol) is even better. I.e., with patches just shy of dripping, I don't really have to swab the bore at all, but do so when I see a degradation in accuracy that isn't my doing. Hope this helps! :*:
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Good advise above for sure.
Personally, I use a "spit patch" for target shooting, and a "lubed patch" for hunting... They both shoot to point of aim - and if my shot is off with either one - you pretty much can bet it was the shooter and not the patch provided whatever lube(s) you're using didn't blow any patches... Escaping gasses around your patch is your worst enemy when it comes to grouping, and we ourselves are our own worst enemy for not being able to "always" hold steady (even off a bench)... Otherwise we all would be shooting 5 shots in the exact same hole every time we pulled the trigger. :shake
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Thanks for everyone's input .
I think I'm just learning and trying absorb so much new info that I just get a little confused and want to try everything all at once.
It's all good , I'm learning and improving .
My one concern about patch condition.
Shooting paper is one thing but a blown patch results in loss in velocity ie ft pounds or energy. No??
If I am trying to work up a hunting load wouldn't I want to keep as much energy as I can rather than gas escaping around the ball., the idea of the patch is to grip and seal the grooves correct.
Should I just work on a load that's accurate and that's it. Be it 50gr or 100.
Is muzzleloader capable of shooting different loads accurately given all the variables or is there just one sweet spot .
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With patch lubes, like many things in life, it's all personal and it's all good if it works good.
What I like best about Gato Feo is that I can lube patch strips and load ball boards well in advance of shooting, and the lube isn't wet. I roll up GF lubed patch strips and stick 'em in a plastic bag within my shooting bag, to keep 'em clean.
A buddy gave me a quart of bear oil that he rendered from the fat of his last black bear kill and man does that work awesome for a patch lube, best I've ever used bar (or "bear" :) ) none. Only thing is that it's purty wet 'n' a bit sloppy to mess with as is any manner of liquid lube.
r.
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Thanks for everyone's input .
I think I'm just learning and trying absorb so much new info that I just get a little confused and want to try everything all at once.
It's all good , I'm learning and improving .
My one concern about patch condition.
Shooting paper is one thing but a blown patch results in loss in velocity ie ft pounds or energy. No??
If I am trying to work up a hunting load wouldn't I want to keep as much energy as I can rather than gas escaping around the ball., the idea of the patch is to grip and seal the grooves correct.
Should I just work on a load that's accurate and that's it. Be it 50gr or 100.
Is muzzleloader capable of shooting different loads accurately given all the variables or is there just one sweet spot .
Whether a person has a TC Hawken, Lyman GPR, or Custom Built Muzzle Loader, the principles are all the same with regard to patch and ball loads. Here's a Link to the TC Handbook;
https://www.tcarms.com/pdfs/uploads/manuals/Hawken_Manual.pdf
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Also, the patent breech ante-chambers of all the offshore trad MLs will require attention ... that kind of breech can easily create ignition issues due to fouling issues that aren't attended to.
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Also, the patent breech ante-chambers of all the offshore trad MLs will require attention ... that kind of breech can easily create ignition issues due to fouling issues that aren't attended to.
Yes,.... those types of breeches from offshore producers need checked over.
I had a fella bring me his new Lyman GPR 'cause it was having ignition problems.
I pulled the breech plug and found when they drilled it the bit had only broken through by about a quarter turn where the two channels intersected (their bit must have broken during the process and they failed to finish the drilling after a new bit replacement).
I finished drilling it out and made sure everything was open, put it back in the barrel, test fired it, and everything was fine. :bl th up
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Here's some interesting reading for you KDubs: https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=62802.0
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Thanks maven, good read .
I'll be back at it next week .
With all the helping I've gotten I think I'll be ok.
Kevin
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Oh and as far as T/C ante chambers go.. i don't have a scraper or a bore scope . should i purchase one or both.
I can see down the barrel OK with a small flashlight.
as far as i can tell the chamber looks clean but.. what do i know :bigsmile:
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Oh and as far as T/C ante chambers go.. i don't have a scraper or a bore scope . should i purchase one or both.
I can see down the barrel OK with a small flashlight.
as far as i can tell the chamber looks clean but.. what do i know :bigsmile:
this is what yer ante-chambered patent breech looks like ...
(https://i.imgur.com/9sfZYSM.jpg)
... get a .30 caliber brush for your ramrod, drape a cleaning patch over it, run it down into the ante-chamber wet to clean, dry to mop up.
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Personally, I've not experienced any problems from the anti-chamber Rifles I have...
After cleaning I do store these rifles with anti-chambers "muzzle pointed down" and in a day or two I'll come back and run a dry patch down the bore(s) and then store them up right. I have never had a problem as yet with them in the 40+ years I've been playing with these things.
Rob's technique in the above post is a very good piece of advice.
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I agree with Joe. Never have I ever had a problem with the ante chamber.
Of course, I always clean with a good bore solvent (Ol' Thunder) and slosh it back and forth quite a bit.
I have no idea how much I have shot, but I would guess that I have used my body weight in Ffg powder over the years. I used to shoot a LOT.
I used to keep all the cans, but ran out of room to store them, so I quit that.
I never used a little rounded scraper or a .30 caliber brush either. I do use a flat scraper on my flintlocks, but that's a whole different story.
Of course, as the saying goes, YMMV.
John (Bigsmoke)
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My take on the patent chambers is they just require added attention and work, that's it.
Everything about black powder guns revolves around paying attention to the bp residue and not procrastinating with the fouling control and cleaning.
Failing the above is when things go bad pretty darn quickly.
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I do think some folks get into this hobby with a mind set of; the cleaning can't be all that different from a modern firearm... They find out differently pretty quick...
Sure, there's some extra attention that needs to be given these ol' smoke poles, and if you want a lifetime of enjoyment from them - one has to put in the effort from the beginning, and continue on with that effort...
Personally, I don't mind going the extra mile when cleaning any of my firearms... Actually, I enjoy the cleaning process, and have never looked at it as a "chore" but rather as something that needs to be done if I'm going to have a well working and dependable firearm when I want to use it.
Any new bits of information that helps folks out with their cleaning is always welcome. :bl th up
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I do think some folks get into this hobby with a mind set of; the cleaning can't be all that different from a modern firearm... They find out differently pretty quick...
Sure, there's some extra attention that needs to be given these ol' smoke poles, and if you want a lifetime of enjoyment from them - one has to put in the effort from the beginning, and continue on with that effort...
Personally, I don't mind going the extra mile when cleaning any of my firearms... Actually, I enjoy the cleaning process, and have never looked at it as a "chore" but rather as something that needs to be done if I'm going to have a well working and dependable firearm when I want to use it.
Any new bits of information that helps folks out with their cleaning is always welcome. :bl th up
All you pilgrims to the trad ML game - hearken and heed Joe's words of wisdom!
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Roger that.