Post by: IronDawg on November 20, 2009, 08:07:43 AM
Bit in all honesty I'm not really intrested in shooting shot at all. I'm pretty much hooked on round balls.
So my question is concerning the accuracy of the smooth bores. Is it normally suprising how accurate they will shoot a round ball?? Or is it just "acceptable or mediocre??
I'm betting the answers are more varying than anything. But I would hate to not hit a deer where I wanna hit it at 50yds when if I woulda been shooting a 1-66 it would have been on target.
Is there a normal distance where accruacy starts failing with them?
And are they easier to clean?? Not that thats of importance. Just seems without the riflings getting the bore to shine would be alot easier.
Post by: bluelake on November 20, 2009, 08:38:09 AM
Post by: hawkeye on November 20, 2009, 08:45:37 AM
If all you want to shoot is round ball and hunt with it, I'd stick to a rifle or a rifled barrel trade gun. If you want the versatility to shoot round ball or shot, then a smoothbore can't be beat.
As for cleaning, I find my smoothies clean a lot faster than my rifles.
Post by: mark davidson on November 20, 2009, 09:09:40 AM
Post by: hawkeye on November 20, 2009, 09:15:32 AM
Quote from: "mark davidson"
Assuming I find the right patch thickness and powder combo that it will like, what can I expect off the bench at 50 yards......4 inch groups....pie plate groups....saucer groups.......broad side of the barn groups?????? :-)
Try it and find out. Everybody's gun is different. Lee makes a .690 round ball mould (proper sized ball for a 12 gauge). Try different patch/powder combinations and see what it's capable of doing. Nobody else is going to know how your gun shoots.
Post by: pathfinder on November 20, 2009, 09:48:15 AM
Post by: hawkeye on November 20, 2009, 09:54:58 AM
Quote from: "pathfinder"
Rear sights on Trade guns was not uncommon. NMLRA rules are used in 99% of all competitions though.
The rule is no rear sights above plane of barrel in a smoothbore match.
Post by: Kermit on November 20, 2009, 11:16:31 AM
Omigod, did I just say that???
Post by: Uncle Russ on November 20, 2009, 11:31:35 AM
Quote from: "Kermit"
Consider a .62 cal round-bottom rifled barrel in a trade gun style. Sounds to me like you don't need a smoothie.
Omigod, did I just say that???
Did he just say that?
I can't believe he said that! :lol:
Uncle Russ...
Post by: mark davidson on November 20, 2009, 12:04:56 PM
Post by: Uncle Russ on November 20, 2009, 12:39:15 PM
However, that is understandable. I can't say I was a lot different when I first started. However, I was patient enough to watch, and listen, and learn.
Keep this in mind....no two barrels are exactly alike, and no two barrels shoot the same. What's good for the Goose is not always good for the Gander.
The only way you are going to know where your gun shoots is for you to shoot it, using your powder, your patch, your lube, your ball, and your loading technique....which will all be somewhat different from the person trying to give you advise.....
Even different lot numbers of the same powder is going to act differently. Temperature, humidity, both have an effect. Lube has an effect, and even how that lube was applied will affect the shot.
There is simply too many variables to even list to say for certain that one load is better than another in another persons gun.
I'm sorry, but that's life!
Russ...
Post by: mark davidson on November 20, 2009, 01:01:54 PM
Post by: Bigsmoke on November 20, 2009, 01:02:54 PM
One is the mechanical qualities of the barrel. So, say that barrel manufacturer has a practice of sharpening their tooling on Saturday morning after it has been used all week. I would submit that the last barrel rifled on Friday is going to be considerable different than the first one that was made on Monday morning. Not a lot, but enough to effect the shooting properties of the barrels by a bit.
The second thing to consider is that each shooter applies a different amount of pressure on the PRB when they load. The results of this are noticeable. Even the amount of pressure a person applies using different ramrods can vary a bit. I would suggest that a rifle loaded with a bench rod has a bit more pressure applied than that with an undergun rod. I think somewhere I heard that the ideal amount of pressure used is something like 35 PSI. How would you know for sure that you are applying 35 PSI pressure to your ramdod everytime you load, unless you have some sort of device mounted to your rod?
Post by: BEAVERMAN on November 20, 2009, 01:22:09 PM
Post by: mark davidson on November 20, 2009, 01:33:07 PM
Post by: mario on November 20, 2009, 02:25:15 PM
Quote from: "hawkeye"
Smoothbores can be quite accurate but they are not rifles. A good rule of thumb is 50 yds or less. I know someone will post that there smoothbore is accurate to 100 yards but in general, keep it to 50 yds or less.
I totally agree.
Quote from: "hawkeye"
If all you want to shoot is round ball and hunt with it, I'd stick to a rifle or a rifled barrel trade gun.
Disagree. A smoothbore is all about distance. If you're hunting in open country, a rifle is a better choice. For close in shooting, either will work, with the smoothbore generally carrying a bigger ball (if that's important to you).
I can't talk about patch thickness, etc because I don't use them.
Mario
Post by: IronDawg on November 20, 2009, 02:53:04 PM
Quote from: "Kermit"
Consider a .62 cal round-bottom rifled barrel in a trade gun style. Sounds to me like you don't need a smoothie.
Omigod, did I just say that???
OH!! You did just say that!! And I'm sayin "why didn't I htink of that!?!?! Thats the ticket right there!
I got to watchin those beckum viedos last night and dadgum thats a pretty lil trad rifle he uses on one of em. Lock is fast on it too!
Post by: hawkeye on November 20, 2009, 04:00:01 PM
Post by: hawkeye on November 20, 2009, 04:03:12 PM
Quote from: "mario"
A smoothbore is all about distance. If you're hunting in open country, a rifle is a better choice. For close in shooting, either will work, with the smoothbore generally carrying a bigger ball (if that's important to you).
Mario
I totally agree Mario. Hunting with a smoothbore takes the same kinds of skill and patients as hunting with a bow. At least that's how I look at it.
Post by: Three Hawks on November 20, 2009, 05:22:15 PM
The 28 ga. patterns 1/2 oz of #6 well enough to pop rabbits and grouse out to near 30 yards. It also patterns .530 patched roundballs into a 9" paper plate at 50. Plenty good enough to make meat in the brushy area I hunt.
The .50 smooth rifle prints .480 patched round balls into a 6" bull at 50 yards. Again plenty close enough to make meat.
Both are unique barrels. One of a kind. No others like them. So comparisons are useless. I also have a T-C Hawken with .50, .45 and .30 barrels fitted to the same stock. All have loads I've worked up and all shoot about 2" groups at 50, opening to 4"-5" at 100. I consider the .30 and my .32 Crockett to be in the same class as a .22 cartridge gun as far as game and plinking goes, pretty much 50 yd max. Never shot the Crockett for groups yet, but no soda cracker has yet insulted me and lived to brag about it.
Three Hawks
Post by: Dennis Neely on November 20, 2009, 08:08:00 PM
When an individual takes to the field with any muzzle loading firearm, be it a smooth bore or a rifle, they have a responsibility to their quarry to spend range time learning both about the firearm they carry and their own personal abilities and limitations in using that particular gun.
We each have "acceptable standards" for hunting accuracy, which often change with the game pursued. The range time (please read that as multiple sessions) will point out at what distance performance drops below those standards, either due to the firearm, the given load or more often, the hunter's own physical ability. The resulting limitation is the hunter's personal "effective distance," which may increase or decrease over time with acquired knowledge, skill or deterioration in same.
For example, with my normal deer hunting load, a round ball discharged from 'Old Turkey Feathers,' my .62-caliber Northwest trade gun, will start "tailing off" at 85-90 yards (that distance being a function of powder charge). Therefore I prefer not to take a shot beyond 75 yards, the effective distance of the firearm--assuming I have a good rest, an unobstructed shooting lane, a good shot presentation from the game and my eyes are rested and focusing correctly. BUT those variables are not always present, so the limiting factor on my effective distance is ME, not the firearm or the load, and at times that effective distance can be substantially less than the 75 yard maximum. And please keep in mind that I've hunted exclusively with the same trade gun for thirty years.
My point is simply that in addition to Russ' comments about "your" firearm and it's developed load, YOUR ability to handle that firearm in a hunting situation is also a limiting factor.
Denny
Post by: Longhunter on November 20, 2009, 10:23:54 PM
My first smoothbore was a 20ga Fowler made by Judson Brennan in 1976. Jud was and still is is one of the better gun makers in the Country. That 20ga was a beautiful gun but it didn't shoot a round ball worth a hoot. I sold that gun and Jud made me a12ga fowler. That gun with 80gr. 2FF behind a patched RB shot like a rifle out to 50yds. In the late 70's The Grand Valley Cap & Ballers club here in Michigan started having Trade Gun Matches. In those days there were not many shooting smoothbores so they let rifles shoot the round too, but not in competition with the smoothbores. I found that the rifle guys really hated getting out scored by a smoothbore. The big round balls of a smoothbore has an advantage when it comes to cutting a string and shooting buttons off a board.
I still have "Ole Melon Buster" my 12 ga fowler. It has accounted for many deer and turkeys over the years.
I've got a 28ga smooth rifle, and a couple 20ga (.62's) One of my 20's "Ole Two-Fer" is a real shooter using 80gr 2FF and a patched RB
My "shooters" have no rear sight so looking down the barrel I line up the tang screw with the front bead, not seeing any of the barrel and hold center.
Here's "Two-Fer"
(http://www.shrewbows.com/rons_linkpics/Two-Fer2.JPG)
"Ole Melon Buster"
(http://www.shrewbows.com/rons_linkpics/Flintlock-bird.JPG)
Post by: Captchee on November 20, 2009, 11:57:55 PM
the NMLRA rules of smoothbores having no rear sights is based on near ZERO
This includes those we wish to call trade guns .
In fact I would stretch to easily say that there are probably = amounts of originals with and without rear sights not to mentions those that carry no rear sight but show signs of either once having one or clear markings that show clear attempts to install some kind of rear reference
As to bending barrels . I have done it with smooth and with rifle barrels . I have done it on tiers m trees and cable wheels . . Kinda like Green eggs and ham .
Accuracy wise . I would agree with the 50 yards as a good distance . That being said , I know folks who shoot nothing but smooth bore . In fact they don’t even own a rifled bore .
When it comes to paper under 25 yards or trail walks they most times do very well and hold their own with the rifles .
Myself I have never been so lucky and can only stand in wonder at what they do .
As to what works in like bore ?? Well what works for me . Most times wont work for another as well .
Each bore has its own likes .
Now you might get something in the general area but , muzzleloading is not center fire . Your not going to find a book that’s going to tell you to do X and it will give you X .
You can actually take two rifles , Exsactly the same . Loaded with the same load, same patch , same size ball . Using the same cap and same size of nipple . Fire them both through a crono and come out with two different velocities .
Even the Lyman carts are not set in stone . But just averages .
The reason there is to many variables .
Inconsistency in powder charges or powder itself , pressures , barrel inconsistencies in cutting bedding , material , harmonics , patch differences , ball differences. Flash hole , nipple , cap pressure differences . Stock differences , inletting differences . You name it and its there , basically cause and effect involved in each barrel and rifle ..
Through the years I have known a lot of folks that try and challenge that . But after years of shooting , they all come to the same conclusion, each gun has its own likes and dislikes . that’s the way of it .
Folks can fight that and try to prove otherwise . OR they can spend that time properly working up a load for their individual rifle . Half of one or a dozen of the other
Post by: Capt. Jas. on November 21, 2009, 09:15:59 AM
A well written post!
Barrel bending has been going on in
America at least as early as 1704. The indians were masterful at it to the point a white man remarked of their uncanny ability.
“Our Indian having this Day kill’d good store of Provision with his Gun, he always shot with a single Ball, missing but two shoots in above forty; they being curious Artists in managing a Gun, to make it carry either Ball, or Shot true. When they have bought a Piece, and find it to shoot any Ways crooked, they take the Barrel out of the Stock, cutting a Notch in a Tree, wherein the set it straight, sometimes-shooting away above 100 Loads of Ammunition. Before they bring the Gun to shot according to their Mind.”
John Lawson, Gent. Surveyor-General of North Carolina, “A New Voyage to Carolina” January, 1701
Post by: Captchee on November 21, 2009, 10:58:32 AM
I have read that entry before .
Ironically just this last spring I bent a barrel on a long rifle while at a shoot . You should have seen and heard the .Im not shooting that , your crazy !!! + more .
but after seeing it done . most simply stated damdest thing i ever saw , who would have thunk it .
The barrel was a 36 inch 45 cal .
I had actually owned the rifle at one time and new it shot true .
I was standing waiting my turn at a target when the fella in front of me remarked that he had just bought the rifle , was new to muzzleloaders and that the PO said it would not shoot center without the rear sight being where it was . That he had shot it and that’s where the rear sight needed to be . I looked around the fella and there was this old rifle that I had once owned . The rear sight was literally only maybe 25% into the dove tail .
I knew the guy he bought if from very well and he was there at the shoot . So I told the fella to take it back to him and tell him to bend the barrel so as he would not lose the rear sight ,.
He looks at me kinda odd but headed off .
A few minutes latter he shows up and say that the PO had said to tell me , he want doing any such thing .
So I offered to true the barrel for him .
We walked back down to the sight in area . . First I re set the rear sight so it was center of the barrel as it should have been .
He fire 3 shots . At 25 yards she was 6 inches to the left .
I took the barrel off . Stuck it down in the center of one of the big wood cable spools that were used as tables .and I gave a big heave .
Replace the barrel .
But the guy would shoot it . Saying ahhh you cant do that !!!.
So I shot it . The group moved 1 inch . I took it out and heaved again .
Buy this time a group had formed to watch ..
I just kept tweeking and bending tell the barrel once again shot single hole at 25 yards . A couple of time I actually had all my weight pulling the barrel . My feet were completely off the ground and im 250lbs
Now you would think that the barrel would not fit back into the stock . that’s simply not the case . Each time it laid perfectly .
The fella later that day out shot me . Bumping me fro 2nd to 3rd . I told him that I had learned my lesson and from then on he could fix his own rifle LOL .
Who knows why the barrel became so far out ?? Could have been dropped or had things stacked on top of it on a trip some time ??? Who is to say . But it shoots true again now
Post by: Minnesota Mike on November 23, 2009, 11:43:10 AM
r/
MM
Post by: hankaye on November 28, 2009, 11:19:50 PM
Also a newbie, think that what everyone has to say has a very valid point.
However, I felt fustrated as the original poster surley has and if ya don't hear from him for awhile then that's probably why.
I think that all he was askin for was;
What can I expect from this smoothbore, nothing else. He didn't need to be talked to 'FROM ABOVE'.
He wanted to know, if he could expect to see reasonable accuracy from his new smoothbore.
He realized that he was going to have to find his own 'recipe for success' He was only askin what to expect...8" groups or 8' groups an at approximatly whay yardage...
If he stayed around long enough to read all of the posts, he might get a bit of an idea. Ya'll did give up a few points, 50 -75 yds. is about the max. fer solid accuracy, again depending on ALL of the variables, someone, said something about 2" groups, noted.
Ya'll couldda said that in a coupla sentences;
"Some have gotten 2" groups at X# of yds. and generally accuracy will deterate at 50 -75 yds. That's kinda what i feel he was lookin for.
Not alot of YOU need to do , an YOUR smoothie will *&&$%^ only after YOU do such an so.
DANG, has it been so long ago that ya'll forgot what it's like ta be the newbie?
Tried spell check again;
Got this;
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Post by: IronDawg on December 01, 2009, 12:02:08 AM
Ya pretty much hit the nail on the head. When it comes to smoothbores, there is no ME shooting MY gun and what works best for ME and working up MY OWN LOAD.
There's no me doing all that becuase before me shells out in excess of a GRAND. I would like to have a general notion of what to expect..... yea..... an 8 inch group or 8 foot group and and roughly relatively rule of thumb what range??
Wasn't asking anyone to do my leg work for me, never have and never will. I've been involved in long range shooting and hunting for a long long time.....Heck man I "work up a load" for centerfires, I "work up a load" for a recurve bow, arrow broadhead and wieght combo. I'm very familiar with having to learn what works best for an individual... I was simply asking more experienced shooters to just give me a notion. Because according to the "if yo could only own one gun" thread. Many of you guys choose the smoothie. So for those that did offer me sound helping advice? Thankyou so very much! I truly apreciate it
For those that took my questions as me wanting someone else to tell me everything and define things for me?? I'm sorry, it was not meant to be taken that way... Ya got it wrong All I wanted was a general opinion of the smooth bores accuracy.
I burnt a pound of powder in two days through two rifles that already had perfect loads worked up for them last week. Why?? getting to know the guns a little better. Woulda burnt more on day 2 but there comes a point in time where a metal butt plate on a 54 and only T shirt between you start to effect accuracy.
And trust me I spend way more time out from behind this computer in the field than most do.
Post by: mark davidson on December 01, 2009, 12:30:24 PM
Post by: biliff on December 01, 2009, 12:41:16 PM
We do have a shooting contest on this forum that includes a couple of us shooting smoothbores offhand at 25 and 50 yards. Print off one of the targets and take a look at what we're shooting at and look at some of the scores being shot for an idea of how we're doing. If I can put 5 shots on a sheet of typing paper shooting a flintlock trade gun at 50 yards they can't be all that terrible. Move it back to 100 yards and well.....
Post by: mark davidson on December 01, 2009, 01:02:29 PM
Post by: IronDawg on December 01, 2009, 01:43:40 PM
I would have to go back and check to ensure I have the right poster but I do believe the fella said to "NOT take his post as sarcasm, rudeness offense, or something along those lines" And I pretty much did exactly that.
Itsa thing with me. I've gotten it all my life. I will be the first to admitt when "I don't know" the first to admit "I am wrong" the first admit "I am new to this." But still in the same sense get a shade defensive when I feel I'm being viewed as someone who's all keyboard and never hunted or spent any true range time learning and shooting and honing skills.
With these traditional muzzleloaders?? yup! rookie here. thats why all the questions. Shooting, siting, hunting?? No where near my first rodeo.
Thing is fellas. These things are no where near what anyone would consider CHEAP in fact you can pretty much buy a fine centerfire for what a KIT cost. And as I am a bit new to this I merely try and get a notion of likes dislikes, simularities and what can be expected from which weapon before considering to fork over that kind of cash for one. See some of you guys have been at this longer than I've been alive. And during that time you've managed to aquire almost every type, buy some, sell some, swap some, trade some, and sit back and think, "dang I wish I woulda never bought that!" or, "dadgum I wish I would have never got rid of that gun." I'm asking because if it's possible I don't want to go "heck I sure as fire wish i would NOT have bought this." And even if I do get that feling after buying one?? I won't be able to use the excuse "well I should have asked more questions or researched it some more."
Again I would like to thank all of those who gave me informative posts and answers. And again I would like to apologize if there was any misunderstanding as well as sort of going off in my last post. It's hard to see someones face through these keyboards sometimes, and even harder to read emotion in to them.
If no offense was meant?? I apologize for taking offense anyway. And now take none.
Post by: mark davidson on December 01, 2009, 02:20:26 PM
Post by: waksupi on March 21, 2010, 12:56:35 AM
Post by: pathfinder on March 21, 2010, 10:32:33 AM
Which I'm guessing is why us old farts love our trade guns.
Post by: Captchee on March 21, 2010, 10:54:34 AM
Quote
And the longer ya shoot yer rilfle,the further up the barrel the rear sight goes!!!!! Which I'm guessing is why us old farts love our trade guns.that and the bigger ball makes a bigger hole LOL
Quote
I have noticed over the years, the more you shoot your smooth bore, the longer your effective range becomes.
yep . possibly because we dont rely so much on the rear sight but on the hold .
as i have stated before in other posts . there is no reason why a smooth bore will not hold a single hole at 25 yards and a sub 6 inch pattern at 75 .
In not sure if this was lost with the site clean up so ill post it again
Last summer I built a Type D fusil for a customer . He had never shot smoothbore and never shot flintlock .
So when I delivered it was in a place we could do some shooting .
For a load we simply started out with 80 grains of 3 F . a wad over the powder , the ball , then an over the shot card to hold it all in place . NO patches were used .
The first 3 shots where from the bench at 25 yards . Here is his target
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/gun%20stock%20artical/storm015.jpg)
I did alittle barrel bending to bring the POA center and we filed the front blade a little. Tell such time as he was shooting just alittle high at 25 .
We then went to shooting off hand at 50 and 75 yards
Here is his 50 and 75 yard target
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/gun%20stock%20artical/storm016-1.jpg)
Now the top ink dot is his 50 yard shooting . As you can see the pattern is under 4 inches . Infact if you discount the fliers , its under 2 inches .
The main bull is his 75 yard target . As you can see the 7 shots are under 6 inches . With one shot he did not follow through , which dropped to the bottom of the target ..
Now again he was a new shooter to both flintlock and smoothbore . But a long time shooter of caplock .
As such with practice and a proper worked up load , there is no reason in my mind that his groups will not tighten up more