Brown bess

[rollingb]

As I read over the prices, I believe that does not include the price of their stocks for each muzzle loader.

You made me go look again,.... and I think you are right about stocks not being included in the price.
Taking that into consideration, I'd say Pecatonica and TOTW parts-kits, are going to cost about the same.  

[Hank in WV]

I've read that TOTW gets their stocks from Pecatonica.

[rollingb]

I am thinking of buying a brown bess, as i have a very limted income for things that go bang(my other hobby needs money as well).  I am thing of buying the 3rd model from Loyalist arms as at $599 it is just in my price range.

If you are a little more concerned about the price rather than the "type" of smoothbore,.... I found this Northwest Trade Gun "kit" on Sitting Fox's site for $599.00
MuzzleLoader Guns
They've got other smoothbore kits too, but they are priced a bit higher.  

[Stormrider51]

There's a lot of controversy over the Made in India guns.  A few years back I decided to find out for myself and ordered a Bess from Middlesex Village Trading.  My experience was at best mixed.  First you need to know that India is full of small shops that turn out muzzleloaders.  Some are fairly good and some turn out what are best considered wall-hangers.  It seems to me that each importer claims to have some sort of exclusive contract with the best shop(s).  The guns are shipped without the vent being drilled to get around export regulations.  In other words, they are sold as "art" rather than a "firearm".  Some importers drill the vent for you and others don't.  Some claim to check out the lock before shipping to make sure it functions.  Some give a guarantee.  Some don't.  It pays to know who you are ordering from.  I worked as a gunsmith here in Central Texas for a number of years.  A customer brought in an India gun he had bought on Ebay and asked me to drill the vent and perform a function check.  When I took the barrel out of the stock I noticed that there was a thin strap of metal brazed across the breech end of the barrel and across the breech plug.  This led me to wonder if the plug was threaded or just pushed in and retained by the strap.  Regardless, I called the owner and told him that I wouldn't fire the gun on a bet and that in my opinion it would be dangerous to do so.  I did not drill the vent.

Bear in mind that everything I'm about to say from here on is my experience with one gun from one importer.  My India Bess arrived well packaged.  The stock was oily and had enough extra wood to make another stock.  Okay, just kidding on that but it was in need of some serious slimming.  Wood to metal fit was poor with very visible gaps.  There were splinters missing from around inletted parts.  I later learned that the wood used was teak, a very dense, heavy, and hard to work substance.

Next I installed a flint and tried the lock for spark.  At least I tried to.  The trigger pull was somewhere off my scale and a man could get a sprained finger trying to get it to release the sear.  When the sear did trip the hammer (cock) often fell into the halfcock notch.  When the sear did clear and the hammer fell, it failed to open the frizzen completely.  To me, these were all correctable problems although I did have cause to wonder about the claim of the lock having been checked before shipping.  I treated the lock like a kit and went through it step by step.  I noted that the steel seemed soft and too easily cut with a file.  A couple of hours later I had a functioning lock.  There was still a noticeable gap between the frizzen and pan but Peter at Middlesex assurred me that it should be fine as long as I used FFg powder.  This turned out to be true provided I loaded and fired immediately.  On a couple of early morning bunny hunts I learned that even FFg would manage to dribble away resulting in a misfire.  The lock went back to Middlesex and they made good on their guarantee.  Frizzen to pan fit was at least acceptable when I got the lock back a week later.

I said my experience was mixed.  Once I had the India Bess shooting it turned out to be more accurate than a Pedersoli Bess I had acquired during this time.  That's the only thing I can claim in favor of the India gun.  Bottom line, and as noted based on one experience with one Made in India gun, I'd save my money and get the Pedersoli.  Otherwise, accept that you may need to treat the lock of your Bess like a kit and correct its ills.  Not bad if you have the tools and skills to do the work yourself.  Not so good if you have to pay a gunsmith to do it.

Take care,
John

[Uncle Russ]

Good post john!  

Uncle Russ...

[peterh]

I can work on the lock if I have to. The reason I asked the question in the first place is that I am a full time collage student, and don't have a lot of money right now.
 I was also looking at Loyalist arms web site as they seem to have better  write ups.

peter

[greggholmes]

I also bought a Middlesex india pattern brown bess. it was in my price range. Yes its not the Rolls Royce of guns. its more of a honda accord or chevy chevett. mine shoots very well and sparks like crazy. if i remember i will post a short video of it sparking. i am very happy with my purchase and would recommend them.
I think its a good gun to get your feet wet and then trade up to a higher quality or custom made. again its my opinion that they are good starter guns. I really dont like it when people tell new people to save up for a Rolls. they may lose interest and move on to another hobby. thats not to say they shoud buy junk and get frustrated either. there has to be a happy medium.
i have no affiliation with Middlesex or any other gun maker or seller.
these pics are right out of the box before any cleaning. you can see the lock has been tested.
Brown bess - Google Photos

[rollingb]

I'll be the last person in the world to ever argue against "positive experiences" in our world of muzzleloading,.... as long as all "experiences are positive".  

[peterh]

I have a change to buy a bess for $575 wholesale with  a high carbon steel barrel(3rd model).  I will take the offer, as it is from some one I know and trust, nice to have contacts. I can not say what make or who I getting it from, part of the deal.

 I do thank every one for there comment's and info.  

 As some one said I don't need a Roll's Royce just some thing to get me from point a to b.

[Stormrider51]

Good post john!  

Uncle Russ...

Thanks Russ.  Always glad to see beginners on the forum and willing to help any way I can.
John

[greggholmes]

I have a gif on the Facebook site that shows my Middlesex India pattern Brown Bess Spark. I can't get it to post on this site

[Rocklock]

"I can work on the lock if I have to. The reason I asked the question in the first place is that I am a full time collage student, and don't have a lot of money right now."

I don't know what your major is, mine was Economics and I spent a 40 year career in purchasing. From all of that experience I ask can you afford to throw away the cost of the junk gun (that you won't be able to sell for more than pennies on the dollar) and then buy a decent one?  Or have you made up your mind and only looking for confirmation?   Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up.

[MacRob46]

The Pedersoli Bess is miles ahead of anything made in India. I have had one for thirty years and it has held up well and the frizzen still produces a respectable shower of sparks. I refinished mine as soon as I got it and aged it as well which you can do too. Also installed a Long Land Pattern butt plate and side plate. That, of course, is not really kosher but I like it and it has served me well.

The only Indian made gun I own is a Scottish all metal pistol, a Murdoch, which I got from Middlesex. It has a slight resemblance to the original but the graceful lines of the originals are not there. The frizzen is poorly hardened and barely sparks. It eats flints like they were free, since the mainspring is far too strong. The trigger pull is horrendous. The bore is rough - the drill marks are readily apparent. I would not shoot it with ball on a dare. It is a wall hanger and nothing more.

Two or three years ago, one of the gun magazines did a comparison of an Indian made musket and a similar Pedersoli product. The first challenge for the reviewer was to get the Indian made gun to fire! The Pedersoli was good out of the box. After extensive modifications involving much time, effort and some money, he decided, quite correctly, that the Pedersoli was better and a better buy.

The Indian guns are not proofed, they are stocked in Teak, which sometimes has soft spots and voids, the metal work is mediocre, and in many cases the guns do not, IMHO, closely resemble the originals they attempt to duplicate. Add to that the unknown origin of the steel that goes into making the important bits of the guns and you have potential for many problems.

As someone else suggested, save up a bit more and look for a good used Pedersoli or even a new one. I think you will be much happier with it.  

[RobD]

i can only echo what others have posted - basically, stay far away from those india junker guns.  they are total Junk, and nothing to trust yer life on IF you can even get them to actually work.  

if you must have a bess, the best price for a Good new gun will be ... yep, pedersoli.

you have been well advised, sir!  

[Mad Irish Jack]

I've looked at the Pedersoli
And they are kinda hit and miss on the finish of them
I looked at 3 and thought one was done very nice but the other two had a lot of proud wood around the lock and trigger guard etc
But the quality was there in parts

I had a Pedersoli back in the later '80s through the mid '90s. But, I bought the kit in the white; everything was fitted well and just some minor sanding and polishing. It's now being treated well in the hands of a British Sgt. out of Johnstown, PA. I don't know if he shoots live with it. I did. 90 gr FFg, .015 cotton patch around a .735 rb. This load was a target destroyer on the range. My shot load was 90gr FFg, OPC, 1/2 Cushion wad, 135 gr any size shot, OSC. With the roundball, I had to center the bayonet lug on the breech, and lower it until it disappeared. I had to pull the trigger the moment it left my sight. To soon, shot high; little late, low. The center was perfect. But the vertical was testy. So, I filed a 'V' in the center of the lug, and silver solder a piece of brass brazing rod into it. Now my front sight picture was set. I would lower the lug until I saw the top half of the brazing rod. Looked like a small bump on the breech. With my rb load 25 and 100 yards were the same sight picture. I could crack 8 of 10 clay birds at 100 yds on most range days. I was the range buster. If you didn't have solid, well built steel targets I'd break them. I harvested deer, pheasants, rabbits, squirrel, ruffed grouse, woodcock, and quail. One deer, a doe I shot, was hit on the bottom half of the spine above the shoulders. She flipped over one and a half turns from a 45 yard shot. The power surprised me. I got three deer with that gun. I've had 10 flintlocks and 1 perc long guns, and a pistol and revolver in the BP game. Not including handguns, I've harvested 28 deer in PA, all seasons, with BP firearms. And a lot more with other modern guns and bows. The weapon isn't as important as your proficiency with it.