Post by: Uncle Russ on December 16, 2015, 02:55:57 PM
I suspect their looks and charm, along with visions of the fur trade era is what got me started in this fascinating hobby we all enjoy so much.
Don't get me wrong, I love my Longrifles and Fowler's, both being Flintlocks, but they just don't bring about the images of running Buffalo, high mountain treks, with rushing streams and rivers that seems, in my mind, to somehow belong exclusively to the Hawken.
I thought this may shed a bit of light on our beloved Hawken, especially those who may not have seen or read this before...if you're a fan of the Hawken, it's well worth the read.
Myth of the Hawken Rifle:
“For many years a rifle was condemned if it did not have the name of Hawkins stamped on it.” A bold, audacious statement. A statement that matches the expectations of many of us of the gun carried by the mountain man. The kind of statement that had been repeated for so often and for so long that I too was taken in by it. And a statement that is largely untrue.
That the shop of Samuel and Jacob Hawken produced high quality, premium guns and rifles (and at a premium price, as much as six times as costly as a trade gun) cannot be disputed. However, their shop was not a gun factory, spewing out an endless stream of rifles. A large part of their business was gun repairs and modifications, as well as other types of iron work required by their customers, such as producing batches of traps, or fire-steels.
Their gun production, which peaked at about 200 per year around the gold rush days in the latest 1840’s and earliest 1850’s, probably was consumed primarily by the local market. The next largest market documented was the Santa Fe trade and Bent’s Fort in the 1840’s.
Even if their entire annual production been sent to the mountains, it still would have been insignificant in comparison to the numbers of guns and rifles being produced and shipped west by gun factories in Europe and eastern United States.
So how did the myth that every Mountain Man had to carry a Hawken rifle (as characterized by the Mountain Rifle) come to be. References to the Hawken rifle by Mountain Men and other observers at the time show that there is no mention of the Hawken in the 1820’s.
In his later years, Samuel Hawken does state that William Asley had a super-Hawken in 1823. There is only one mention of a Hawken rifle in the 1830’s by Pegleg Smith, who states that ownership of one is a good recommendation (but not that everyone had to own one).
By the 1840’s there are numerous references to the Hawken rifle and the quality of the firearm, but no indication that it was the universal weapon or the firearm of choice. It seems probably that George Frederick Ruxton may have innocently been responsible for starting the legendary association of the Hawken rifle and Mountain Man.
Ruxton, an English observer, traveled the Santa Fe Trail in 1847. He later wrote two books based on his experience: a factual book entitled “Adventures in Mexico and the Rocky Mountains” distinguished for its many complete and accurate descriptions of clothing, weapons, and personal equipment used by the people with who he came in contact; and a fictional novel based on his experiences entitled “Life in the Far West.” In his factual book, Ruxton makes no mention of the Hawken rifle. However, in the novel, he writes that his hero, when beginning to outfit himself for life in the mountains stops by the Hawken shop to replace his squirrel gun with a “regular mountain rifle.”
This novel was an international best seller. It appeared serially in 1848 in Britain and the United States, and English editions were printed in 1850, 1851, 1861, 1867. A German edition appeared in 1852. American editions were printed in 1855, 1859, 1915, 1951, and 1973. This popular best seller appears to have inextricably linked the image of the Mountain Man with the Hawken rifle in popular wisdom.
After the appearance of Ruxton’s best selling novel and well after the end of the era of the “Mountain Man” allusions to the Hawken rifle and Mountain Men increase in frequency and the superlatives become increasingly enthusiastic.
However, these statements seem to be drawn out of thin air, with no documentation to back them up. A listing of Mountain Man rifles in order of importance, based on trade inventories and production records was probably: Lancaster Rifle English Rifle Other Kentucky and Pennsylvania types J&S Hawken Rifles New English Rifle (last because it appeared very late)
The primary distinction that the Hawken Rifle held was that it was the predominant and earliest percussion rifle to see widespread use amongst the Mountain Men. However, rifles were not the only long gun to see use by the Mountain Man. Huge quantities of Northwest Trade Guns as well as other smoothbore long guns were shipped annually to the mountains. Although intended primarily for trade with the Indians, these guns also saw widespread use with the trappers.
The above material was summarized from “The Hawken Rifle: It’s Place In History” by Charles E Hanson, Jr.
If you don't have this book, and would like to get it, it is available on Amazon.com
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006DYFRA?keywords=The%20Hawken%20Rifle%2C%20by%20Charles%20Hanson&qid=1450295625&ref_=sr_1_1&sr=8-1
It would make a nice Christmas Present for "yerself"!
Uncle Russ...
Post by: RobD on December 17, 2015, 06:33:40 AM
where does the half-stock fit into the "mountain man rifle" picture? weren't most full stocks?
Post by: prairie dog on December 17, 2015, 08:54:59 AM
I also have a fascination with the Hawken rifle, and it can be challenging to separate the myth from the truth.
Post by: Muley on December 17, 2015, 12:22:01 PM
I just bought a Jonathan Browning Mountain Rifle for my shoots and hunting. I know it's not an exact copy, but it's close enough for me. I can't afford a custom true copy. The JBMR is a bit heavy for this 73 year old. Especially, up at 11,000ft timberline where I like to hunt. However the real Hawken was heavy too, so I just need to deal with it.
Post by: Uncle Russ on December 17, 2015, 12:38:24 PM
Quote from: "rfd"
....where does the half-stock fit into the "mountain man rifle" picture? weren't most full stocks?In reality, I personally think you are right. I have never believed a nimrod arriving in St.Louis from the east would sell his eastern longrifle just to go beaver trapping in the mountains, as he had likely grown-up using that same rifle which he knew it inside and out. I also believe that some arrived with a rifle that was simply too small, or to frail to handle the arduous task that lay ahead.
(The writings of Hanson pretty much agree.)
Still yet, the image most conjured up of the Hawken, during this time frame, is a rifle with a half-stock.
During the early days of the fur trade era, the vast majority of rifles in the Rocky Mountains were likely Lancaster, and privately owned Kentucky Rifles in various calibers, with the Lancaster, later on, getting the most favorable reviews of the time, according to Hanson.
The image of the half-stock Hawken likely fits best later on, in the 1850's, when the actual majority of Hawken rifles were built, the fur trade was practically over and gone, the Gold Rush days had begun, and "Hide Hunting" was starting in the plains of the West.
A shorter more handy rifle was built for the ease of use on horseback, and the taking of Buffalo.
Other writers have stated that before the cartridge rifles of the day, properly referred to as Buffalo Guns, the half-stock muzzle loader had already laid claim to as many as 25% of all Buffalo to be taken during that same era.
Muley, can't say my feelings about the Hawken differ from yours. It is what it is and it's still being duplicated today with all our modern technology and machinery. It's obivously still there in the hearts and minds of many of today's buckskinners.
And the myth continues.......
Uncle Russ...
Post by: Muley on December 17, 2015, 12:44:36 PM
Jim Bridger, and Jeremiah Smith's Hawkens were half stocks. Those are documented, but i'm sure lots more that we don't know about.
Post by: Hanshi on December 17, 2015, 03:15:13 PM
It's amazing that so many think of any halfstock as a "Hawken". If you love your Hawkens, go for it. I simply love wood going all the way out to the muzzle.
Post by: Muley on December 17, 2015, 04:42:44 PM
btw You only have to look at where someone lives to understand why they like certain guns.
Post by: RonC on December 18, 2015, 10:16:14 PM
(http://imageshack.com/a/img843/1729/57t2p.jpg)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img823/4956/u1kx.jpg)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img843/742/4w8jv.jpg)
Ron
Post by: Muley on December 18, 2015, 10:25:04 PM
Yes, but I bet you can't find a full stock caplock made by Hawken that wasn't converted from a flintlock, or a half stock flintlock by Hawken.
Post by: Sneakon on December 18, 2015, 10:28:39 PM
Post by: RonC on December 18, 2015, 10:30:37 PM
I don't have the skill or knowledge to judge whether or not these rifles started as flintlocks or originated as caplocks.
If you can tell through the glare of the glass, I would very much like to know which ones of these are original caplocks.
Thanks,
Ron
Post by: Muley on December 18, 2015, 10:44:46 PM
So, i've assumed that all full stock Hawken rifles were flints, and all half stock were caplocks.
I'm open to be proved wrong. I just want to know the truth.
Post by: Muley on December 21, 2015, 05:53:25 PM
2 cards spurs 1.75 & 2.75 $4.500
1/2ream Fool's Cap Paper 5.50 2.75
50 Best Quills $1.00 $0.500
1/6doz Blk Ink Powder $1.00 $0.170
50 @ Vermillion 1.08 $54.000
1 doz Red Cock feathers 2.50 $2.500
66 half axes 0.75 49.5
25 Tomahawks 0.375 9.38
15 Am. do. $0.75 $11.250
6 Felling Axes $1.50 $9.000
36 N. W. Guns best quality $4.50 $162.000
5 Am. Rifles steel mounted 19 $95.000
10 Hawkens Rifles 24 $240.000
1504 @ Small bar lead 0.07 105.28
1000 " Powder 0.29 290
1350 @ Plug Tobacco 0.125 168.75
620 " small finest tobacco 0.125 77.5
525 @ Coffee 0.1575 82.68
1500 " Brown Havanna Sugar 0.125 187.5
25 " Black Pepper 0.12 3
4 boxes Raisins 4 16
1 barrel Dry'd Apples 4.5 4.5
1 " " Peaches 3 bush 3 9
150 @ Rice 0.06 9
2 barrelsSuper fine Flour 9.5 19
2 1/2doz Bed Cords 1.75 4.38
5 ps Riband No 4 0.6 $3.000
4 " " No 3 0.4 $1.600
2 Blank Books 0.375 $0.750
1 " 0.25 $0.250
2 Bank Books 0.25 $0.500
6 nests sheet iron Kettles 185 1/2 g 0.28 51.94
4 " Tin Kettles 7 28
6 Sheet Iron kettles 46 0.28 12.88
3 Tin kettles 2.25 6.75
3 doz Tin cups 0.56 1.69
4 doz Assorted sizes Tin pans 2.5 10
Drayage of tin & sheet iron 0.25
5 doz Com. Snaffle Bridles 6.5 32.5
4 1/6doz Stirrup Leather 5 20.83
8 1/3doz Leather Sursingle 7.5 62.5
15 Leather Powder Bags 3 45
50 prs Horse shoes 0.7 35
CARRY FORWARD $585.020 1345.56
Post by: Bigsmoke on December 21, 2015, 06:12:25 PM
Also interesting that there are no powder horns on the list, just leather powder bags. And no flints or perc. caps either. Hopefully, this is only a partial list.
Do you know where and when this inventory is taken from?
John
Post by: Muley on December 21, 2015, 06:15:27 PM
Post by: rollingb on December 21, 2015, 06:19:46 PM
Quote from: "bigsmoke"
Interesting. So, this is saying the Hawken sold for $24.00 in the day on the mountain? Hmmm, would have thought it would be a little more. Interesting that there would be so many of them, compared to the iron mounted trade rifles.Looks like a partial list of goods from 1837.
Also interesting that there are no powder horns on the list, just leather powder bags. And no flints or perc. caps either. Hopefully, this is only a partial list.
Do you know where and when this inventory is taken from?
John
Post by: cb on December 21, 2015, 08:39:24 PM
Quote from: "bigsmoke"
Interesting. So, this is saying the Hawken sold for $24.00 in the day on the mountain? Hmmm, would have thought it would be a little more. Interesting that there would be so many of them, compared to the iron mounted trade rifles.JohnThat is the companies cost/wholesale value. Retail value once marked up for sale in the mountains was anywhere from 5% to 2,00% markup dependent on several factors. The price of various items to the buyer/mtn man can be found on a few of the original trade lists including the Ft Hall Records. Many of those records can be found here MOUNTAIN MEN AND THE FUR TRADE (http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html).
Other wise the prices listed reflect cost not retail.
PS The iron mounted American Pattern rifles were those made by Henry of Boulton, Penna and IMO were an attempt by Henry to make a similar rifle to those mountain rifles made by the Hawken Shop at a somewhat lesser price. Descriptions of such rifles include a long tang and trigger bar for instance, calibers were generally 54 and were all flintlocks. No existing examples are known today despite the rifle featured by some authors as an iron mounted Henry, which is actually a marked North Carolina made rifle using some Henry parts IIRC barrel and lock - items sold by Henry as wells as complete guns.
Post by: Muley on December 21, 2015, 08:43:47 PM
Post by: MacRob46 on March 15, 2016, 08:04:33 AM
Quote from: "Sneakon"
If I remember correctly, Jim Bridger's Hawken is in the Montana Historical Society Museum in Helena. It is a half stock. Seeing that gun was an inspiration. My Hawken is the best shooting muzzleloader I have, and so much fun to hunt with.I was at the museum last June and the Bridger Hawken was not there. In fact, outside of the Cody Museum I did not see many Hawkens - other than TC "Hawkens" - anywhere in Wyoming and Montana. Maybe it was on loan somewhere else.
Post by: MacRob46 on March 15, 2016, 08:48:01 AM
Quote from: "Muley"
That's the problem Ron. I looked into this a couple of years ago, and nobody could come up with solid proof that there was ever a half stock flintlock Hawken. Some had looked at all the museum Hawkens too.
So, i've assumed that all full stock Hawken rifles were flints, and all half stock were caplocks.
I'm open to be proved wrong. I just want to know the truth.
The only Hawken rifle that shows evidence of having been flintlock at one time is a full-stock belonging to the Smithsonian. There is a good photo of this gun in R. L. Wilson's book, The Peacemakers. I have seen it pictured in a number of publications and am not aware of any other Hawkens which appear to have originally been flintlocks. In the case of this rifle, the lock was clearly flint at some point in its life, the plate is marked "Hawken - St. Louis" and there is percussion drum installed in the barrel. Whether this was a custom rifle or some kind of repair or modification done in the field is impossible to say, absent documentation.
Post by: Sneakon on March 18, 2016, 09:14:43 AM
Jim Bridger's Hawken | Muzzleloaders | 24hourcampfire (http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/4368859/Re:_Jim_Bridger's_Hawken)
But there is another from a later time period here:
Jim Bridger's Rifle - Museum of the Mountain Man (http://museumofthemountainman.com/jim-bridgers-rifle/)
Both half-stock.
Post by: Muley on March 18, 2016, 09:53:01 AM
Quote from: "Sneakon"
Re: Jim Bridger's Hawken...seems like there are at least a couple. Here is a link to the rifle I remember from the museum in Helena:
Jim Bridger's Hawken | Muzzleloaders | 24hourcampfire (http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/4368859/Re:_Jim_Bridger's_Hawken)
But there is another from a later time period here:
Jim Bridger's Rifle - Museum of the Mountain Man (http://museumofthemountainman.com/jim-bridgers-rifle/)
Both half-stock.
I was looking for a half stock flintlock. Jim's gun was a caplock. Plenty of those are around.
Post by: MacRob46 on March 18, 2016, 10:56:19 AM
Quote from: "Muley"
Quote from: "Sneakon"Re: Jim Bridger's Hawken...seems like there are at least a couple. Here is a link to the rifle I remember from the museum in Helena:
Jim Bridger's Hawken | Muzzleloaders | 24hourcampfire (http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/4368859/Re:_Jim_Bridger's_Hawken)
But there is another from a later time period here:
Jim Bridger's Rifle - Museum of the Mountain Man (http://museumofthemountainman.com/jim-bridgers-rifle/)
Both half-stock.
I was looking for a half stock flintlock. Jim's gun was a caplock. Plenty of those are around.
I went back just now and looked at the photos I took in the museum in Helena which did not include the Jim Bridger Hawken. I was actually looking for the Bridger Hawken, which I heard was in there, and it wasn't, at least it wasn't in June of last year. I did not ask about it, and probably should have. If I go by there this summer will inquire.
Post by: Muley on March 18, 2016, 11:01:50 AM
Here's it's specs.
Jim Bridger's Rifle - Museum of the Mountain Man (http://museumofthemountainman.com/jim-bridgers-rifle/)
Post by: Hawken on May 22, 2016, 10:30:20 AM
Post by: RobD on May 25, 2016, 05:41:54 PM
but really, the further functional simplicity of the "plains half stock" just can't be beat - a barrel tang knock out plug or two and a hooked breech make for quick field cleaining, adjustments and fixin' ... in either lock format.
imho, the longer barrels served no accuracy advantage save for sight/aiming pictures.
a wannabe cheap offshore "hawken" half stock caplock has got to be the easiest ml for a pilgrim to enter our sport, specifically because the flint lock itself needs to be of a higher quality to be reliable than the offshore versions, so caplocks rule for newbies.
(http://i.imgur.com/MMx5s5c.jpg)
Post by: Ohio Joe on May 21, 2017, 11:16:31 PM
I think one thing that has not been touched on as yet, and that is that the Mountain Man era, although credited with ending in 1840 after the last Rendezvous,,, well it really didn't... The fur trade continued, it just wasn't as lucrative as it once was, and the annual gathering (Rendezvous) where no longer taking place. However, the trading post were still active and some new ones even sprung up.
Now I do agree completely that there were probably darn few Hawken half-stock rifles during and up to 1840 in the hands of mountain men. And, it only takes one living "famous" mountain man to buy a new half-stock Hawken Rifle (towrads the end of the given 1840 date, or soon after that) to bring forth the notion that all mountain men carried one. We do know Kit Carson had one and remember he was in the public eye which had much to do with him guiding Fremont.
Bridger opened a trading post if I recall, and those stopping to resupply along the Oregon trail, had they seen Bridger toting around a Hawken half-stock rifle, to those unknowing souls set on the trail for Oregon wouldn't know the difference IMHO and would just assume he always had one, even back in his trapping days. Who knows, Bridger himself may have spun some tails to those folks stopping at his trading post about the wonderment of his Hawken Rifle and the fixes it got him out of? Pure conjecture of course, but possible.
There are plenty of ways to spin a myth, and sometimes those myths become the twisted facts of history. Eventually things start to get sorted out over time, and it starts opening the eyes and ears of those interested in such things... Like many of us here, are. :bl th up :shake
Post by: Hawken on May 21, 2017, 11:57:15 PM
Post by: Uncle Russ on May 22, 2017, 01:29:13 AM
No...every Mountain Man didn't have a Hawken but that's not to say that after they had seen and hefted one.......a Hawken was on their 'wish list'!! :hairy :bow
True, very true....ya don't make a name for yourself like Sam Hawken did without doing something right.
I've never read they were outstandingly accurate in anyway, what with that 1:48 twist being due to the fact that particular rifling machine was the only one available at the time, I have never read it shot harder, truer, or farther, so it very well could have been in "the feel", all in the "hefting"...but don't forget what it did for the eye.
It was just downright pleasing to look at....it stirred those inner demons, creating excitement.
Whatever the reason for the Hawken popularity during that special era in time, I am very thankful the likeness of a very similar rifle survives to this day.
Ya simply gotta love the story of the Hawken Rifle, it has changed many of our lives in todays modern world when it comes to hobby / lifestyle we all enjoy immensely, and I personally see that as a good thing.
Uncle Russ.....
Post by: Ohio Joe on May 22, 2017, 01:58:10 PM
No...every Mountain Man didn't have a Hawken but that's not to say that after they had seen and hefted one.......a Hawken was on their 'wish list'!! :hairy :bow
True, very true....ya don't make a name for yourself like Sam Hawken did without doing something right.
I've never read they were outstandingly accurate in anyway, what with that 1:48 twist being due to the fact that particular rifling machine was the only one available at the time, I have never read it shot harder, truer, or farther, so it very well could have been in "the feel", all in the "hefting"...but don't forget what it did for the eye.
It was just downright pleasing to look at....it stirred those inner demons, creating excitement.
Whatever the reason for the Hawken popularity during that special era in time, I am very thankful the likeness of a very similar rifle survives to this day.
Ya simply gotta love the story of the Hawken Rifle, it has changed many of our lives in todays modern world when it comes to hobby / lifestyle we all enjoy immensely, and I personally see that as a good thing.
Uncle Russ.....
I have a book around here somewhere that I recall seeing/reading in it that there was a penetration test into oak from 200 yards with a Hawken Rifle, and I'm not sure if it was a civilian test or Army test from the late 1840's to maybe in the 1860's. I'll have to find that book and see exactly what that was. I also kind'a recall that there was (or was going to be) a "Hawken" Rifle Company formed up during the Mexican/American War (1848). Whether this ever took place or not, I don't know? It could be another myth, or there could be some substance to the story?
Post by: Loyalist Dave on May 23, 2017, 08:23:43 AM
Quote
.., when beginning to outfit himself for life in the mountains stops by the Hawken shop to replace his squirrel gun with a “regular mountain rifle.”
I wonder how much of a "myth" was the Hawken in the 19th century, compared to what it is today, perhaps getting a huge boost, starting in 1972?
In Jeremiah Johnson (Warner Brothers Dec. 1972), Johnson in his voice-over narration, buy's a "thirty caliber" rifle, because it was all that he could find, and also remarks, "but it was all Hawken". Now those of us who know muzzleloaders know IF the screenwriter really knew something about muzzleloaders, it probably would be a .32 or .36, and even so, would be woefully underpowered for the places he was going. Later in the film, Johnson finds the late, "Hatchet Jack", and obtains a much larger caliber Hawken. This movie was based on two novels, and these may have echoed in the 20th century, the novel of the 19th century that was a well known best-seller.
LD
Post by: Uncle Russ on May 23, 2017, 10:06:05 AM
And you're right, if the screenwriter knew maybe it should have been pointed out.
Basically it looks like:
BTTP Caliber in Decimal
30 .533
32 .530 or .526
34 .519
36 .506
Uncle Russ...
Post by: Ohio Joe on May 23, 2017, 02:04:19 PM
Remember, Johnson can't seem to even kill an animal with his .30 Hawken... (30 BTTP = .533), yet after he gets Hatchet Jack's rifle "a fifty caliber Hawken" (36 BTTP = .506), he's killing big game, including a grizzly bear in the cabin.
I bet they also never figured this would spur debate since the first showing of this movie. :shake
Post by: amm1851 on May 23, 2017, 06:19:55 PM
Post by: Uncle Russ on May 23, 2017, 07:11:02 PM
I bet Robert Redford never imagined how many people would have their interest in muzzleloading rifles at least partly stimulated by that movie. In spite of its inaccuracies, it is a fun movie to watch. :bl th up
You betcha! :toast
That movie turned a lot of people to the dark side.
There were other movies along the way, but in 1972, or thereabouts, the interest was showing up in many places where there had been none before.
That movie ignited a spark along with a lot of debate that simply refuses to go away.
And, IMHO, that can all be seen as good thing.
Uncle Russ..
Post by: Winter Hawk on May 23, 2017, 10:22:59 PM
Years ago I was in a museum in Portland, Oregon which was mainly about the trek West to the Willamette Valley. Several of the rifles on display looked very similar to the CVA mountain Rifle, IIRC. Again, this was about 30 years ago and time seems to have blurred some of what I remember (see comment above).
~WH~
Post by: Bigsmoke on May 23, 2017, 10:40:50 PM
Then of course, the Jeremiah Johnson movie with what's his name.
Along about that time, I started selling stuff at rendezvous and shoots.
By 1976, we were doing pretty good and then the Buy-Some-Tennial hit and things really went wild.
I would say that the centennial and the bicentennial were the big growth spurts, the movie was secondary.
Other movies like LOTM, the Patriot, etc. spurred growth, but the anniversaries were the things that really caused excitement.
Just my opinion, of course.
John
Post by: amm1851 on May 23, 2017, 11:05:50 PM
Post by: Ohio Joe on May 23, 2017, 11:46:59 PM
Any fans of the Hawken rifle owes it to themselves to visit the Buffalo Bill Center of the West in Cody, Wyoming. It is actually five museums in one complex, and the firearms portion is enough to satisfy gun enthusiasts of any era. When I was there, they had a wall of Hawken rifles right near the entrance, and I believe I spent a good 30 minutes just staring at them. The rest of the firearm museum is equally impressive, with everything from the earliest types of gun to the latest whiz bang. It also features an impressive collection of western art, a natural history museum and the Buffalo Bill portion. Well worth the trip for any student of western history. :bl th up
Been there, loved it, hope to go back someday. :hairy
It's a shame that the Lewis & Clark Expedition didn't have quite the impact as other anniversary events. If it had, who knows, we might be talking the Harpers Ferry 1803 right now? If I recall this correctly, didn't one of the Hawken's have a hand in making these rifles before they moved to St. Louis? I believe there was some talk of the half stock Hawken rifle possibly being based on that rifle, only with a percussion lock rather then a flintlock.
Post by: Loyalist Dave on May 24, 2017, 08:37:44 AM
Quote
I bet Robert Redford never imagined how many people would have their interest in muzzleloading rifles at least partly stimulated by that movie. In spite of its inaccuracies, it is a fun movie to watch. :bl th up
My first ML was a Thompson Center .50 caliber "Hawken". OH and Paints-His-Shirt-Red is clearly seen in one scene as having a rifle/fusil double gun..., not bad at all. :bl th up
Oh I give a break to '70's and earlier black powder films, and TV shows like Daniel Boone. ;D I don't give an inch to stuff made after 2000 that's craptastic, because it's so easy for the writers to get it right, and for the prop master and costumer to get it right and to find the right stuff too. Case in point, The Sons of Liberty. Bad costumes, poor direction, bad props, weak script.
LD
Post by: Winter Hawk on May 24, 2017, 06:31:23 PM
~WH~
Post by: Ohio Joe on May 24, 2017, 06:47:23 PM
Found the May issue of Muzzle Blasts still here. The articles are about the "Medina Hawken" bought by Mariano Medina when he was a young man, and later rebuilt by the Hawken shop. Article one is a history of the rifle (and Medina) while article two is about recreating the rifle.
~WH~
I saw that WH, and meant to get back to reading it. Like so many things, I have good intentions and then I forget... I'll read it after my grandson's ball game tonight (if I remember...) :bl th up
Post by: Winter Hawk on May 24, 2017, 07:21:59 PM
~WH~
Post by: Uncle Russ on May 24, 2017, 07:54:14 PM
I don't think the writers of JJ had a real good clue on the firearms of the period, caliber and BTTP.
Remember, Johnson can't seem to even kill an animal with his .30 Hawken... (30 BTTP = .533), yet after he gets Hatchet Jack's rifle "a fifty caliber Hawken" (36 BTTP = .506), he's killing big game, including a grizzly bear in the cabin.
I bet they also never figured this would spur debate since the first showing of this movie. :shake
Joe, think about it...36 is bigger than 30..... right? ;)
Many of us are just alike, in a sense.
It's difficult to really enjoy a movie when you're a gun nut and things are all wrong, it kinda wipes out what would've / could've been a pretty good movie....we do my best to ignore it, but it just bugs us.
Uncle Russ...
Post by: Loyalist Dave on May 25, 2017, 08:12:22 AM
As I wrote before, I give TV and movies a break in the 1960's and 1970's...., and prior. But imagine had they done Last of the Mohicans c. 1992, and put Magwa in a full Sioux War Bonnet?
Then you get John Milius directing The Wind and The Lion, and the Marines storm the port of Fez in proper uniforms, with .30-40 Krag rifles, and later some are seen with pump Winchester shotguns, which were what they would've carried, and that movie was done in 1975. :bl th up
I don't mind that Spencer Tracey in NW passage is running around in a glengarry hat, with "muskets" that are actually trap-door, Springfield rifles. :o Or that Fess Parker as Daniel Boone often looks like his shooting bag is empty and it's too low and so is his horn, ;), or that the Brits in Allegheny Uprising have the wrong guns, etc etc :D
LD
Post by: amm1851 on May 25, 2017, 10:14:18 AM