Your TMA Officers and Board of Directors
Support the TMA! ~ Traditional Muzzleloaders ~ The TMA is here for YOU!
*** JOIN in on the TMA 2024 POSTAL MATCH *** it's FREE for ALL !

For TMA related products, please check out the new TMA Store !

The Flintlock Paper

*** Folk Firearms Collective Videos ***



Author Topic: Hawken Flintlocks?  (Read 2755 times)

Offline Muley

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 504
Hawken Flintlocks?
« on: February 25, 2012, 10:35:02 AM »
All the Hawken flintlocks that i've seen have been full stocks. Were there ever half stock flints?

I'm thinking my GPR flint is a gun that never existed, but i'm not sure.
Pete
TMA Member #655
Expires Dec 2017
Keep your nose in the wind.

Offline sse

  • TMA Contributing Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5370
  • TMA Founder
  • TMA: TMA Co-Founder, Charter Member, BoD.
  • TMA Member: Charter Member #3
Re: Hawken Flintlocks?
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2012, 10:47:30 AM »
Interesting question.  I'll bet there were a few half-stock, flint hawkens in the old days, but it would take a fair bit of research to look and compare, etc.
Regards, sse

************
Consider joining the TMA...If you're not a member, you're missing out...

TMA Member #3
Exp. July A.D. 1821


Offline Captchee

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6215
Re: Hawken Flintlocks?
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2012, 11:31:48 AM »
the Lyman is a a symbolance of a plains rifle . not really a hawkens . though it is rather close
 It should also be noted that there were a lot of ½ stock flintlocks .
Most notably English , German and French sporting guns. None of which are exactly like a Hawkens rifle  but some are  close in  stock shape
 
here is a 1/2 stock flinter for you



Gustavus Erichson was a gun maker, gunsmith, and gun dealer in Houston from 1838 until 1872.  Two of his sons, Otto and Alexander, continued the business until the 1890s.

An amazing rifle has just been discovered hidden away in the vault at the Sam Houston Memorial Museum in Huntsville, Texas.  An original flintlock rifle that appears to have been stocked in Houston as early as 1840 and stamped G. ERICHSON  HOUSTON. TEXAS. on the lock and the barrel.  Mounted in iron with a pewter nosecap, stocked in walnut.  This large rifle measures 61 inches overall and has a 43 5/8", .51 caliber, swamped barrel. The rifle is in fine shape and, at this time, is the only known Texas marked flintlock sporting rifle.

This extremely fine rifle has G. ERICHSON  HOUSTON TEXAS stamped on the percussion lockplate.  The parts and workmanship are undoubtedly that of the Higgins family of gunmakers from Georgia.  Robert Higgins, of this family, was located in Henderson, TX (1857 - 1860) and Beaumont, TX (1870 - 1890).  A strong possibility exists that the lock could have been purchased from Erichson's store and the rifle was built by Robert Higgins

Offline Muley

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 504
Re: Hawken Flintlocks?
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2012, 11:44:06 AM »
How did the Hawken, and the plains rifle differ?
Pete
TMA Member #655
Expires Dec 2017
Keep your nose in the wind.

Offline trg

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 24
Re: Hawken Flintlocks?
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2012, 12:32:52 PM »
It is easiest to have detailed photos of both to compare the architecture.furniture and all detail, several pics of each would give a more comprehensive comparison, the plains rilfe is a generic name so to speak of a type of rilfe used in the 1850ish-80ish periofd Hawkens were gus made by specific builders, the Hawken boys could have built plains rifles juts as did many other well known builders of thne period. The Hawken gun has become a type of gun in the mind of many which is really not correct. Others will add much more to this thread I suspect.

Offline Captchee

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6215
Re: Hawken Flintlocks?
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2012, 12:44:16 PM »
Well simply put , the plains rifle  was basically a heavy barreled half stock rifle  made by many different makers .
Leman , Henry , Derringer and countless others made such rifles .
 The differences come in  shaping and hardware and  barrel choices .
At first glance they are all near the same  and thus  today most any half stock is called a Hawkens Rifle. But in fact they are not.  
See Hawkens was a maker  not a style of rifle .
 As such they had their own distinct characteristics which can be seen in the trigger guards , butt plates , drop of the stock , lines of the stock  as well as lock choices .
What set Hawkens guns  above others was their reputation for quality  .
 However simply put  what they were making was a Plains rifle also know a  sporting rifle  . A style  not specifically unique to Hawkens.
 
 How should I put this ????/”thinking “

See rifle design have a lineage that depicts a given set of characteristics.
 That linage comes from the old schools . So while lets say  a given  rifle may be a Derrick , Isaac Haines , Bevin’s ….. even though those  rifles are  in  ways unique to  those makers . They are still classified by a school   or area . IE Lancaster or one of the other schools  which had their own traits that were distinctly their own .

  So when we see a half stock rifle  we aren’t necessarily see  Hawkens because people were not copying or using a Hawkens style.  What they were doing was they same thing Hawkens was doing  IE using a sporting / plains rifle design  with their one distinct twist and quality
here is a quick link  that may help you understand  what im struggling to  get across .
 as you look at all these rifles , Note  that None are Hawkens guns . yet  today , with very little acceptation , many folks would call them Hawkens , even though they are not .
 simply put  a person could place an actual Hawkens made  rifle  into this list  and  unless a person was reading  the documentation  or  new the distinct and subtle  characteristics  that  were common to Hawkens the maker  , a person  would not  know  the difference by looking at the photo.
So what we are left with is again Hawkens being a maker  NOT a school of design  
http://www.texasguntrade.com/texassportingrifles.htm

so now the real question ; did  the Hawkens brothers make a flintlock , half stock rifle  in their shop ?
 some say yes , others say no .
 so it just depends on what side of the fence you fall on .
  but if we realize that Hawkens wasn’t doing anything  design wise that was truly and completely unique as far as style goes . Then  the question is ; were there half stock plains and sporting rifles . To that question the answer is a clear Yes

Offline Muley

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 504
Re: Hawken Flintlocks?
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2012, 03:14:07 PM »
Thanks for the info Cap. A couple of years ago I started to get into Hawkens and mountain men. I sort of drifted out of it, and got sidetracked with other guns. I bought "The Hawken Rifle" by Charles Hanson. I don't know how accurate the book is?

 I was under the impression at the time that the GPR was close to a Hawken in style, but of course it wasn't a copy. At one time I thought about getting a Don Stith kit, and building a better copy of a Hawken. I don't think I have the talent to do the kit justice, so I never did it. I saw two pictures once of a real Hawken, and a GPR that was reworked to look close to a Hawken. It looked pretty close in the pictures. Close being the key word, but it did look a lot better than the original GPR.

I would still like to do that. Rework a GPR to look more like a Hawken. However, I don't want to do it with a flint. I always wanted to try a flint, and i'm glad I did it. I should have just tried someone else's  gun first though. Caplocks are more my style, and so far I don't feel comfortable hunting with a flint. I know they can be dependable, but I don't want to worry about my gun going off when I have an elk/deer in my sights.

I don't see a classified forum here, so I hope it's ok to say this here. I'd like to sell this gun. The bad part for most is it's a LH model. GPR flint .50 cal. About 20 shots taken. I bought it new and have only had it a few days. I'd be willing to trade for same in a caplock, or even the barrel and lock. Mine is a good accurate barrel. Sell it outright is an option too.
Pete
TMA Member #655
Expires Dec 2017
Keep your nose in the wind.

Offline R.M.

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 810
  • TMA Member: 134
Re: Hawken Flintlocks?
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2012, 03:37:26 PM »
Muley, the "Trade Blanket" is in the Misc. Topics for Discussion area. You need to be a paid member, which I know you are, so it's fine for you to list it. It shouldn't last long if it's priced right.
R.M.
 :Canada
TMA Charter Member #134   Exp. 11/14
Join the TMA. For the money, it's the best BOOM for your 15 bucks.

The tree of liberty must be watered periodically with the blood of tyrants and patriots alike..........Thomas Jefferson

Offline Captchee

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6215
Re: Hawken Flintlocks?
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2012, 03:49:27 PM »
Personally Muley, once you get to know that flintlock   thus have shot it enough  to  become confident in the reliability , you should  in fact have more faith in its reliability then with a cap lock.

right now , when your new to them , it may seem like there is alot to learn . but soon it will become 2nd nature  and no more complicated then  placing a cap on your caplock

Online BEAVERMAN

  • TMA Contributing Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5915
  • TMA: TMA Vice President
  • TMA Member: Charter Member #145
  • Location: Vaughn, WA
Re: Hawken Flintlocks?
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2012, 04:07:50 PM »
Quote from: "Captchee"
Personally Muley, once you get to know that flintlock   thus have shot it enough  to  become confident in the reliability , you should  in fact have more faith in its reliability then with a cap lock.

right now , when your new to them , it may seem like there is alot to learn . but soon it will become 2nd nature  and no more complicated then  placing a cap on your caplock


I agree with Cap here Muley, give it some range time and you may find that your going to like that rock lock, do you have anybody close in your area that shoots flinters on a regular basis to go with you and learn ya some rock lock tips and tricks?
Jim Smith
TMA Vice President
Charter Member #145  EXPIRATION 1/21/25
Green River Mountain Men
Peninsula Longrifles
WSMA
U.S.M.C.
BSA                    


"An armed man is a citizen,..an unarmed man is a subject!"

Offline Muley

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 504
Re: Hawken Flintlocks?
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2012, 04:30:33 PM »
I thought I had it figured out at the range yesterday. Today I went hunting for a few hours for does. I had a nice one in my sights at 40 yds. My load was 90gr of Goex 2F with 4F in the pan, a new flint, and a clean barrel. It should have been a dead deer. Not even a flash in the pan. I got no ignition at all, but saw it spark. The deer heard me and took off. Just as a test I cocked it and fired again. It went off perfect. That baffles me, and I lost a deer with a problem I don't know how to fix.

Plus, I have a gun that may have never existed. The same gun in a caplock would have killed the deer, and been more authentic at rendezvous. I should have thought out buying a flint better. My bad.
Pete
TMA Member #655
Expires Dec 2017
Keep your nose in the wind.

Offline Captchee

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6215
Re: Hawken Flintlocks?
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2012, 04:49:56 PM »
Quote
I thought I had it figured out at the range yesterday. Today I went hunting for a few hours for does. I had a nice one in my sights at 40 yds. My load was 90gr of Goex 2F with 4F in the pan, a new flint, and a clean barrel. It should have been a dead deer. Not even a flash in the pan. I got no ignition at all, but saw it spark. The deer heard me and took off. Just as a test I cocked it and fired again. It went off perfect. That baffles me, and I lost a deer with a problem I don't know how to fix.

Plus, I have a gun that may have never existed. The same gun in a caplock would have killed the deer, and been more authentic at rendezvous. I should have thought out buying a flint better. My bad.

or your gun would have went POP  or  just click . you never can tell .
 may be just me but it sounds to me like your flint isnt sharp and thus throwing inconsistent spark . there should always be a full shower of sparks  not just one or two.

myself i have never seen anyone  or trained anyone who learned a flintlock in a day at the range . it takes time  to  understand  the things that need to be maintained .

As to the gun never existing ?
 Is it a Hawkens ? Nope . Is it close , yes . At least as close as your going to get from a lot of builders and defiantly the closest your going to find in a production gun

Offline Muley

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 504
Re: Hawken Flintlocks?
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2012, 05:07:51 PM »
It was a brand new flint that TOW sells. I can understand a dull flint, but it fired fine on the second attempt. I did nothing to the powder in the pan. I just cocked it and tried again. It fired fine, and i'd be dressing a deer if the first one was like the second try.

With real BP. I've never had a caplock fail to fire. I'm more comfortable with them for hunting. I'm not the type to ever give up, but I think it's best this time.
Pete
TMA Member #655
Expires Dec 2017
Keep your nose in the wind.

Offline Captchee

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6215
Re: Hawken Flintlocks?
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2012, 05:30:04 PM »
brand new  means nothing Muley .  a flint can dull after the first fall . if its not aligned and set to the jaws proper  it may not spark to its full potential . The flint can also slip , if not  set and tightened properly .
 Every flint is not the same a person also has to learn what makes a good flint . How the edge should lock . How its supposed align with the jaws
 Again it takes time to learn .
 All I can tell you with certainty is that   I don’t own a cap lock rifle . Have not for  20+ years .
Anyway . I don’t think you will have a problem selling it and if your  certain your  better of with a cap lock , ha 2 thumbs up

 be safe

Offline Muley

  • TMA Forum Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 504
Re: Hawken Flintlocks?
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2012, 05:48:53 PM »
I understand all you're saying, but why did it fire on the second attempt? I also loaded it 3 times after that, and it fired normally. If it had continued to fail I would blame the flint too.

I think flints are fun to shoot, but at my age I can't pass up too many good shots at game, because of gun failure. Maybe i'll get a long rifle flint for shoots, and use a caplock for hunting.

No hard decisions have been made yet. Except to sell the GPR flint.
Pete
TMA Member #655
Expires Dec 2017
Keep your nose in the wind.