Post by: 4-Liberty on January 11, 2014, 07:20:08 AM
Thanks!!
Post by: Sneakon on January 11, 2014, 09:05:53 AM
I'm sure I've left info out and my description is confusing, but others will clarify.
Post by: Sir Michael on January 11, 2014, 02:47:17 PM
As previously stated, with a rifle the key is what the gun performs best with (ball dia., patch thickness, patch lube formula, powder grain size, powder charge). These are a lot of variables to deal with not to mention you.
With a rifle it is essential that you remove or minimize the variations you input into each shot. This is best done with a good rest and a strong focus on the point of aim (POA) don't worry about the point of impact (POI) just the distribution of where the shots hit, you can move the POI to the POA after you get the best group. Here is the best rule of thumb I've come across for this process.
Rifle starting point
Ball Size - Barrel Bore Land dia minus .010 - .015
Patch Thickness - .010
Patch Lube - Your choice (liquid e.g. moose milk or solid e.g. wonder lube) note: don't change during grouping process
Powder Grain Size - The published sizes are <.50 cal - fffg, >.50 cal - ffg, >.70 cal - fg. (note: I shoot a .62 rifle that really likes ffg. Go figure)
Powder Charge - Starting point go both up and down from here. Target load measure grains = caliber of ball. Hunting load 1/3 the weight of ball in grains.
Above all remember that the goal is the smallest group. And every gun likes two charges one light and one heavy. (This is the result of shock wave harmonics, ball velocity in the barrel, and barrel length)
Smoothbore ball starting point
Ball Size - Barrel Bore Land dia minus .020 - .010 depending on whether you are going to use patches or wadding
Patch Thickness - .010
Wadding - enough to hold the ball in place with the muzzle pointing down.
Patch Lube - If you use patches. Your choice (liquid e.g. moose milk or solid e.g. wonder lube) note: don't change during grouping process
Powder Grain Size - The published sizes are <.50 cal - fffg, >.50 cal - ffg, >.70 cal - fg. (note: I shoot a .62 trade gun that really likes ffg.)
Powder Charge - Starting point go both up and down from here. Target load measure grains = caliber of ball. Hunting load 1/3 the weight of ball in grains.
The hard part of grouping a smoothbore is that that usually doesn't have a rear sight (if it does use the rifle process). Therefore consistency in the sight picture of the front sight and the POA is critical. You may want to create a rear sight/reference point to ensure the necessary consistency.
To pattern a smoothbore with shot the process is somewhat different.
Use ffg Powder
Select Powder Charge - 68 grains - 90 grains
Over powder card to fit bore
Wad to fit bore
Select Shot size - e.g. No. 5 - No. 8
Select Shot volume - Use the same measure for the shot that you used for the powder
Select shot size - e.g. No. 5 to No. 8
Over shot card to fit bore.
The goal here is the most consistent shot pattern.
Each process requires the adjustment of the above one item at at time.
This takes a lot of time but gives you the best consistency and teaches you just how your gun works. It also instills a lot of confidence in you that when you pull the trigger you will hit what you are aiming at.
Post by: 4-Liberty on January 12, 2014, 05:15:00 AM
So, as I'm working my way up through he powder charge by 5 grain increments, there will be two charges that will have the tightest group; the low being the "target load" and the high one being the "hunting load"? Do I understand that correctly?
Sir Michael; what exactly do you mean when you say "Powder Charge - Starting point go both up and down from here."?
Also, at what distance do you pattern a gun, both rifle, and smoothbore (ball & shot)?
Post by: Sir Michael on January 15, 2014, 11:07:52 PM
As for finding the two optimal charges, you should experiment with both heavier and lighter charges from your two starting points because there is no way of knowing whether the optimal charges are higher or lower that those points. Personally, my .62 cal rifle likes 62 grains of fffg and it also likes 100 grains of fffg. I've seen people shooting as much as 80 and 130 grains is their .62 cal rifles. Every gun is different.
To make it easy to work up a load for a rifle 25 yds is a good distance. However, remember that once you get the optimal groups, you need to move the target out to 50 to 150 yds to adjust your sights. The distance you decide to use for your sight adjustment to achieve POA=POI is up to you and depends entirely on what range you intend to shoot the most. It is also a good idea to fine tune or confirm your powder load at that distance as well.
As for patterning a smoothbore, the typical distance used is about 40 yds with a pattern board of at least 50 in. square. Again the idea in patterning is to get a uniform a distribution of shot over the board as possible. You don't want to have any gaps or wholes in the distribution.
Post by: 4-Liberty on January 17, 2014, 02:27:33 AM
Post by: Sir Michael on January 17, 2014, 04:26:06 AM
One more thing. In all this process, only change one thing each five round session. Powder charge is generally first, then Grade of powder, then patch thickness, then ball diameter, lastly there is patch lube.
Post by: 4-Liberty on January 17, 2014, 05:08:58 AM
Thank you for the help so far! I'm still somewhat of a greenhorn and never really understood the patterning process!
Post by: Two Steps on January 17, 2014, 09:51:51 AM
Sighting-In the Black Powder Rifle (http://home.insightbb.com/~bspen/sighting.html)
Good luck getting a good tight group (I'll get one some day
)Al
Post by: Sir Michael on January 17, 2014, 04:40:34 PM
Post by: ridjrunr on January 17, 2014, 06:43:09 PM
Post by: 4-Liberty on January 18, 2014, 05:50:36 AM
Feel free to contribute any more information that you might have in regards to patterning! This is good stuff!
Post by: Sir Michael on January 18, 2014, 02:40:31 PM
Post by: Bigsmoke on January 18, 2014, 03:25:45 PM
Example, Michael talks about his .62 liking 62 or 100 grains of Fffg. Compare that to my .62 which seems to prefer 135 grains of Ffg for plinking and 200 grains of Ffg for more serious work. Which interestingly enough is the same heavy charge my .69 likes, however it wants 150 grains of Ffg for target work. Both have 1:104 twist.
And to emphasize, as has been said before, only change one variable at a time. That cannot be over emphasized.
Have fun getting to know the gun.
John
Post by: 4-Liberty on January 18, 2014, 04:18:56 PM
That brings up my next question. Is there a formula for the maximum amount of powder that a specific caliber can safely handle?
Post by: Sir Michael on January 18, 2014, 04:27:05 PM
If you get up to 1/2 the weight of the ball I'd recommend you start over. Review the groups you've shot, pick the best and look at ball size and/or patch thickness. My loads are based on historic loads used for the same rifle. As was said previously, every gun is different and even two factory made guns with consecutive serial numbers may be different. Everything said here is just a starting point.
This whole process also gives you a chance to get thoroughly familiar with your rifle and gives you the confidence to know that if after you finish and you miss your target it is you not the rifle or load.
Post by: Riley/MN on January 18, 2014, 08:18:19 PM
Quote from: "4-Liberty"
Wow! 200 gr is a lot of powder!!!
That brings up my next question. Is there a formula for the maximum amount of powder that a specific caliber can safely handle?
O that's nuthin! How do you think he got the name bigsmoke? John likes ta shoot guns where he uses a teacup for a powder measure....
Post by: prairie dog on February 05, 2014, 12:34:31 PM
I also got a copy of Dutch's system and follow that for my muzzle loaders. That system was the short cut for a long learning curve. I'd spent a lot of time and components unnecessarily before I learned the finer points of it. There were two items in his system I hadn't known about or figured out myself. That alone was worth the small price I gave Dutch for his "secrets"
Whether center fire or muzzle loader I look at the load development as an on going project. I don't try to get it all done at once. I take my time testing variables until I get it all dialed in and find that "sweet spot" for each variable. Once I find it, I write it down. Then I'm on to the next gun. Each gun is a puzzle and I enjoy working with them until I have it all put together. Then I need another project.