Post by: Stormrider51 on June 08, 2014, 10:07:24 AM
This also sets up an opportunity. My other Bess was made in India. Here's my chance to do a head-to-head comparison. I plan to run all the accuracy testing on the Pedersoli that I did on the Indian version. It will be interesting.
Storm
Post by: snake eyes on June 08, 2014, 12:40:40 PM
Keep us posted,as you usually do. Should be very interesting
to see what you come up with.
snake-eyes
Post by: Hanshi on June 08, 2014, 04:39:44 PM
Post by: Stormrider51 on June 08, 2014, 04:53:28 PM
I have some initial photos uploaded but have family coming for twin g-kids b-day party. Just let me say that I did get one moment of anxiety once I got home. I ran an oily cleaning patch down the bore and came up with what looked like bits of rotten wood from down near the breech. I had sudden visions of someone having broken off a ram rod when they stuck a patch. No, it turned out to be dried parts of what appears to have been a large grasshopper. The bore was rust free.
Storm
Post by: ridjrunr on June 08, 2014, 07:32:55 PM
Pedersolis are great guns.
Post by: Stormrider51 on June 08, 2014, 11:33:34 PM
I really can't judge historical details. I'm a shooter, not a historian or re-enactor. I'm hoping those with more knowledge about the historical correctness of these two guns will contribute their observations. I'm going to start with the more minor points between these two muskets. The barrel is not as highly polished externally on the Ped as on the India. I really prefer the less reflective surface in a hunting gun. Wood to metal fit on the Ped is better. Not a great deal better but better none the less. The inletting of parts was clearly done with machinery, not chisels. The vent on the Ped is smaller. Don't know if this will make a difference in ignition of the main charge or not. The vent on the Ped is NOT in the proper "sunset" position. It is slightly too low. Again, only shooting will determine if this matters. When I get to the lock I start to question myself. To my eyes that are accustomed to mass produced cast and CNC machined parts the Ped looks to be of higher quality. Edges are crisper. I didn't have any of the problems I had with the India before I tuned and polished it. Of course the Ped isn't factory fresh so I don't know if somebody else had to do some tuning before I got it. The frizzen pan cover and pan mate quite well. FFFFg priming will not escape the pan on the Ped as there is the merest glimmer of light between the two parts. I did a couple of light file strokes on the working parts of the Ped and learned that the parts are tempered harder than those on the India. I was borderline concerned about the India parts because they seemed a little soft. Not badly but enough to possibly cause them to wear out faster. Would this matter over the lifetime of the average shooter? Probably not.
As I said, when it comes to accuracy the Ped will have some proving to do against the India. I did notice that the stock geometry on the Ped and India must be different. When I shoulder the India I have to press my cheekbone down into the stock to an uncomfortable degree and my eyes are still perched well above the barrel. The stock on the Ped allows me to get a lower view along the top of the barrel without mashing my face. Again, whether this will be proven an advantage when I shoot the Ped remains to be seen.
Storm
Post by: Thunder Bay on June 09, 2014, 06:21:36 AM
Post by: snake eyes on June 09, 2014, 08:46:05 AM
Looks like you made a great find! :shake [/color]
Post by: oscarlovel on June 09, 2014, 10:38:57 AM
Post by: Stormrider51 on June 09, 2014, 01:57:56 PM
Storm
Post by: oscarlovel on June 09, 2014, 02:02:35 PM
Post by: Stormrider51 on June 09, 2014, 07:27:50 PM
I decided to forego the paper cartridge testing. All I proved with the India Bess was that the stories about inaccuracy were true. I went directly to PRB. And I got a surprise. Take a look at the photo of the PRB group. It's nothing to write home about and much larger than the one ragged hole the India Bess gave me. The India Bess wins that one hands down.
Next I tried wadding with a bare ball and got another surprise. I ran down a wad of tow, dropped in the ball, and followed it with another wad of tow. I didn't even try to measure, weigh or otherwise be sure the amount of tow was consistent. The five shot group was actually better than the one I fired with PRB. See the photo. I think I hear Mario laughing from here.
All this tells me is something I've known for years. Every gun is a universe unto itself. I knew from the outset that the accuracy demonstrated by the India Bess with PRB would be hard to beat. I just thought the Italian gun would at least come close. I was wrong. Now I need to start working up a load for it that does. The first thing I'll try is lubing the patches. I've developed a technique that is sort of a reversal of the Schoultz "dry patch" idea. Instead of soaking patches in the water and Ballistol solution I've been using the solution as a bore wipe between shots. So instead of lubing the patches I'm lubing the bore. It obviously worked well in the India Bess but did it cause a problem with the Italian? I'll find out.
Storm
Post by: Stormrider51 on June 10, 2014, 04:56:18 PM
Life is hard.I sat down at the bench with the India and got into shooting position. I tried to memorize the view of the barrel and front sight. Then I switched to the Italian and did my best to attain the same view. I loaded and fired five shots exactly as I did yesterday. The photo shows the results. The India still wins but not by nearly as great a degree. Next I'll try varying the powder charge.
Storm
Post by: TallTexan on June 18, 2014, 08:39:03 PM
You KNOW the one I'm talking about.
Post by: Stormrider51 on June 18, 2014, 10:29:56 PM
Actually, it's TT who is looking for a smoothbore. I was trying to help and scouting different websites when I found the listing for the fowler. Walnut stock, .62 cal/20 G octagon to round barrel, L&R Queen Anne lock. Looked good in the photos. I forwarded the info to him. Unfortunately, the length of pull was too short. Too short for him that is but not for me. I have two Brown Besses so I put the Pedersoli up for sale locally (to avoid shipping). Now I'm the owner of the English fowler. The photos didn't do it justice. Neither do the ones I took and will post here. I don't know who made it but they know their trade. The only possible clue is that on the upper left barrel flat just ahead of the breech is a Crown with either R J. or K J. under it. If anyone recognizes that please let me know. The lock mortise was done on a machine.
Anyway, I had a doctor appointment this afternoon so I didn't get to do a great deal of shooting but I did try it out. (See photos) In spite of one flyer the gun turned in a very credible performance and that's without any load development. I had to shoot, clean, and run or I'd have worked with it more. There's always tomorrow.
Storm
Post by: Stormrider51 on June 18, 2014, 10:32:49 PM
Post by: Roaddog on June 19, 2014, 06:31:17 AM
Post by: mario on June 19, 2014, 06:37:56 PM
Quote from: "Stormrider51"
Next I tried wadding with a bare ball and got another surprise. I ran down a wad of tow, dropped in the ball, and followed it with another wad of tow. I didn't even try to measure, weigh or otherwise be sure the amount of tow was consistent. The five shot group was actually better than the one I fired with PRB. See the photo. I think I hear Mario laughing from here.
:)
When I shot with paper cartridges, it in effect was a paper patched ball.
For instance, with a .755" bore, start with a .690" ball (like the Brits used) an make the outer diameter of the cartridge just a bit smaller than .755". The idea is to dump the charge down the bore and then stuff the ball down, still wrapped in the cartridge paper.
For rapid fire, or when the bore started to get fouled, simply dump powder, then drop/ram the ball down bore forgoing the paper. Historically they would drop the ball and tap the butt on the ground to seat it against the powder. I DO NOT RECOMMEND THIS PRACTICE.
However, I have done it for the experimental value. You CAN feel when the ball goes all the way down (I checked with my rod) and you CAN feel when it hangs up.
I used this method for an informal shoot a few years ago, against shooters using PRB and cartridges and placed #8 of 30-ish shooters.
Mario
Post by: TallTexan on June 19, 2014, 06:49:09 PM
Quote from: "Stormrider51"
A couple more.
Post by: WindyCityJoe on June 20, 2014, 11:06:19 AM
Post by: Stormrider51 on June 20, 2014, 01:07:09 PM
Quote from: "WindyCityJoe"
I just bought a unfired pedesoli brown bess yesterday for $875. S/N 194##. I thought I got a good shooter, however after reading your input on the pedesoli brown bess that you bought maybe I should of got something else. I never shot anything larger than a .50 cal cap lock.
Joe,
Give that Bess a try before you decide you should have bought something else. The big girl grows on you. I was lucky with the India Bess in that it performed so well with the first load I tried. Most guns require some time and load development before they give best accuracy. Mine never misfired and flints seemed to last a long time. Try her out and come back to tell us your thoughts.
Storm
Post by: WindyCityJoe on June 20, 2014, 01:14:16 PM
WCJ
Post by: Stormrider51 on June 20, 2014, 01:46:28 PM
I used a starting load of 75 gr. FFg and a .735 ball. For patching I have some flannel. With that ball and the flannel I can thumb start the ball and it pushes down easily. That's handy if you are loading with that skinny steel rammer. My limited experience to date with smoothbores is that a tight patch/ball combo doesn't increase accuracy anyway.
Have fun!
Storm