Traditional Muzzleloading Association

Traditional Firearms => Flintlock Long Guns => Topic started by: Stormrider51 on June 19, 2014, 06:17:42 PM

Title: Can you identify this smoothbore?
Post by: Stormrider51 on June 19, 2014, 06:17:42 PM
I picked up a very nice English fowler and would like to get as much information about it as possible.  I'm especially interested in who made the barrel.  Here's what I know.  The stock is walnut.  The lock is a L&R Queen Anne.  The barrel is .62 cal20 gauge, 42" and transitions from octagon to octagon with the corners rounded to round.  There are two wedding bands 3 1/2" apart.  On the left upper flat just in front of the breech is a crown over the letters KJ.  Of course, I don't know if that is the barrel maker or maker of the gun.  I'll post photos of other features.

Thanks,
John
Title: Re: Can you identify this smoothbore?
Post by: Stormrider51 on June 19, 2014, 06:19:27 PM
And a couple more.
Title: Re: Can you identify this smoothbore?
Post by: TallTexan on June 19, 2014, 06:53:02 PM
Whomever made this one needs to make me one just like it with another 2 inches of lop in the stock.  :-)
Title: Re: Can you identify this smoothbore?
Post by: Stormrider51 on June 19, 2014, 07:38:07 PM
That's partly why I'm asking for help in identifying it, TT.

Storm
Title: Re: Can you identify this smoothbore?
Post by: TallTexan on June 19, 2014, 11:03:33 PM
Quote from: "Stormrider51"
That's partly why I'm asking for help in identifying it, TT.

Storm
Let's hope we can find him. That's about the perfect brownish red stain too. As soon as I'm able to drive again, you're getting a visit so I can see this one for myself.
Title: Re: Can you identify this smoothbore?
Post by: Stormrider51 on June 20, 2014, 12:30:57 AM
Or, as soon as you can get sprung from that hospital I'll come bust you out for a day.  I probably shouldn't say this but the LOP isn't the 13 1/2" the seller claimed.  It's actually 14 1/2".  Still a bit too short for you but....
Title: Re: Can you identify this smoothbore?
Post by: Feltwad on June 20, 2014, 01:14:10 AM
This is not an English Fowler but a hybrid , the skill of the builder would have done a better job if he had stuck to a copy of an original English Fowler  .It looks to me that he build it pesonnally to suit himself.
Feltwad
A Flint Lock will not secure a chicken house door
Title: Re: Can you identify this smoothbore?
Post by: Stormrider51 on June 20, 2014, 09:56:07 AM
Thanks, FW but that's not the information I'm looking for.  I personally don't care if it is an exact replica of an English fowler or not.  Many fowlers made in this country were "hybrids" and the design evolved just as the early German Jaegers evolved into the longrifle.  

Storm
Title: Re: Can you identify this smoothbore?
Post by: TallTexan on June 20, 2014, 10:08:38 AM
Quote from: "Stormrider51"
Or, as soon as you can get sprung from that hospital I'll come bust you out for a day.  I probably shouldn't say this but the LOP isn't the 13 1/2" the seller claimed.  It's actually 14 1/2".  Still a bit too short for you but....
You mean I missed out by a quarter of an inch?!? :bl th up
Title: Re: Can you identify this smoothbore?
Post by: Stormrider51 on June 20, 2014, 10:30:19 AM
TT-- When the gun got here I shouldered it and thought it felt longer than the 13 1/2" LOP the seller stated.  It fit me well so I didn't worry about it.  Only when I decided to seek help as to the maker did I get out the tape measure.  I'm still hoping the Crown over KJ on the barrel will click with someone.  I thought I had identified it as a TOW kit.  They offer an English fowler that is very close to mine but things like the trigger guard finial are different.  Maybe someone will come up with a name yet.

Storm
Title: Re: Can you identify this smoothbore?
Post by: TallTexan on June 20, 2014, 10:41:44 AM
Take it out and enjoy shooting it. I enjoy reading about the results almost as much as I'd enjoy being there myself.
Title: Re: Can you identify this smoothbore?
Post by: Feltwad on June 20, 2014, 11:22:07 AM
Quote from: "Stormrider51"
Thanks, FW but that's not the information I'm looking for.  I personally don't care if it is an exact replica of an English fowler or not.  Many fowlers made in this country were "hybrids" and the design evolved just as the early German Jaegers evolved into the longrifle.  

Storm
Question   Why call it an English Fowler when it does not represent a English Fowler
Feltwad
A Flint  Lock will not secure a chicken house door
Title: Re: Can you identify this smoothbore?
Post by: Feltwad on June 20, 2014, 11:43:05 AM
A stand of English plus a Frenchsxs fowler
(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j152/Ramrod_2006/P1010032_zps2371b1f1.jpg) (http://http)
Title: Re: Can you identify this smoothbore?
Post by: Feltwad on June 20, 2014, 12:22:17 PM
A close up of above
Title: Re: Can you identify this smoothbore?
Post by: Stormrider51 on June 20, 2014, 01:29:27 PM
Storm[/quote]
Question   Why call it an English Fowler when it does not represent a English Fowler
Feltwad
A Flint  Lock will not secure a chicken house door[/quote]

Well, the seller called it an English fowler and I didn't question it.  Track of the Wolf offers a kit that may well be what my gun started as.  Their kit even has the same thumb piece.  They call it an English Fowling Gun.  As I've said before, I'm a shooter, not a historian.  I leave it up to folks like Mario to set me straight.  I'm sorry if it somehow offends you that I called my gun an English fowler although I'm not sure why it should.  

Storm
Title: Re: Can you identify this smoothbore?
Post by: snake eyes on June 20, 2014, 01:54:00 PM
[/quote] I'm sorry if it somehow offends you that I called my gun an English fowler although I'm not sure why it should.  Storm[/quote]

Storm,
          Its your gun and you like it, so you can call it a broomstick
if you want to.   :shake [/color]
Title: Re: Can you identify this smoothbore?
Post by: Feltwad on June 20, 2014, 03:55:36 PM
Stormrider

This piece does not offend me I was only stating the facts .You call it a English fowler  but it does not represent a English fowler , the name Fowler would have been more appropriate,you say the gun suits you so shoot it and enjoy it thats  what muzzle loading is all about .I will say again I am not offended only stating the facts.
Feltwad
A Flint Lock will not secure a chicken house door
Title: Re: Can you identify this smoothbore?
Post by: Stormrider51 on June 20, 2014, 08:10:16 PM
Felt,  Would you please educate me on what parts of my gun fail to qualify as being English style?  To my untrained eye the gun I have looks very close to the next to lowest on your rack.  Clearly I'm missing something.  Also, since I'm becoming more convinced that my gun started its life as a TOW kit, is their kit also incorrect?

Storm
Title: Re: Can you identify this smoothbore?
Post by: mario on June 20, 2014, 11:22:24 PM
At first glance, I thought TVM English fowling piece. But I'm thinking you may be right with the ToW kit.

Does the barrel have any taper? IIRC, the basic barrel available with the kit doesn't have any taper.

Mario
Title: Re: Can you identify this smoothbore?
Post by: Stormrider51 on June 21, 2014, 12:38:35 AM
Mario,   The round portion of the barrel does not have any taper.  The fact that it transitions from octagonal to octagonal with the corners filed away to round looks like the ToW as does the spacing of the double wedding rings.  The front sight looks the same.  The only piece that isn't as shown on the fowler on Track's website is the trigger guard.  The front tang is much more elaborate but I found the exact trigger guard offered as a part.  I'm sure at this point it's a ToW gun.  I'd still like to know who the Crown over KJ marking belongs to but that may have to remain a mystery.  Thanks for your help.

Storm
Title: Re: Can you identify this smoothbore?
Post by: Feltwad on June 21, 2014, 08:04:54 AM
Stormrider

Has for TOW kit I do not know this company and I do not work on repros . Has for muzzle loading I have been doing this for the past 65 years and restoration since the late 1950,s For what I can tell from the images ,most of diferences are  in the breech area with the  Lock, Trigger guard, Barrel breech and the side plate and worst is that lock housing moulding.
Feltwad
A Flint Lock will not secure a chicken house door
Title: Re: Can you identify this smoothbore?
Post by: Captchee on June 21, 2014, 08:43:42 AM
It also looks to me to be made for ToW parts .
As to the markings . I don’t recognize  the initials. Over all the quality of workmanship  that I can see , looks  reasonable Stormrider ..
I wish that  someone would come up with and up dated list and information of makers marks . Even if it was nothing more then a list of makers across the US . IMO that surly would be helpful
As to the rest .
 Like the initials and the crown , it would appear  that who ever made it used their own  likes when choosing  parts and creating the moldings. Thus making it  their own  or making as someone  requested .
 Personally that’s  no more of an issue then someone  making  Bucks County    rifle  and not having the  molding just so , or having it to heavy or having an odd patch box . For that mater adding Engraving or a different type of engraving then was seen on  an original piece .
 IMO they can call it what ever they wish as they made it .
 LMAO  so how about we say you have an English fowler  not a Queens English fowler LOL
Title: Re: Can you identify this smoothbore?
Post by: Stormrider51 on June 21, 2014, 01:54:02 PM
FW,  Thank you for that information.  I have some reading to do.

Captchee,  Compiling a list of makers would be a huge undertaking.  There are far more people building muzzleloaders today than there ever have been and that includes the time when flintlocks represented the apex of firearm technology.  I may never know who KJ is but I do know good work when I see it.  All of the inletting and inlays look as though the wood grew around the metal.

Storm
Title: Re: Can you identify this smoothbore?
Post by: Captchee on June 21, 2014, 03:22:27 PM
ya i know it would be a huge undertaking still would be  something that should be done
Title: Re: Can you identify this smoothbore?
Post by: Kermit on June 21, 2014, 05:04:37 PM
Quote from: "mario"
At first glance, I thought TVM English fowling piece.
Mario

Thanks, Mario. I'm still trying to get people to call them "fowling pieces." A FOWLER is a PERSON who hunts FOWL using a FOWLING PIECE. Might as well call it a shotgun. :Doh!
Title: Re: Can you identify this smoothbore?
Post by: russ t frizzen on June 21, 2014, 05:23:06 PM
Quote from: "Kermit"
Quote from: "mario"
At first glance, I thought TVM English fowling piece.
Mario

Thanks, Mario. I'm still trying to get people to call them "fowling pieces." A FOWLER is a PERSON who hunts FOWL using a FOWLING PIECE. Might as well call it a shotgun. :Doh!
Regardless of what we call it, it's a handsome piece. And Kermit is right. This is a pet peeve of mine too.
                                        Dan
Title: Re: Can you identify this smoothbore?
Post by: Stormrider51 on June 21, 2014, 05:37:29 PM
Off the subject a little, but how many of you remember how worked up John Baird got when Thompson Center dared to name their muzzleloader a "Hawken"?  LOL!  That gun wasn't even close to looking anything like anything Jake or Sam ever turned out.  I agreed with him.  Now I've heard them called "classics".

Storm
Title: Re: Can you identify this smoothbore?
Post by: Captchee on June 22, 2014, 07:19:31 AM
yep that one got me just a little bit . what about the  new cva inline  CVA  being called a Mountain rifle .  LMAO  wait tell you see their plains rifle .
 But in the end it really doesn’t make any difference. At least no more then , cookie or biscuit  ,  English biscuit and an American biscuit ……………….
 The one that used to flip my father out was  service station attendants  asking if he wanted his motor oil checked .
 mine , well its those who  have modern reproductions stamped with period proofing marks all in the name of being PC.
Title: Re: Can you identify this smoothbore?
Post by: Stormrider51 on June 22, 2014, 10:25:57 AM
Charlie,
The one I got most ticked by was the CVA "Kentucky rifle" with the fore end made in two pieces joined by a brass plate.  My Dad got his hands on one and threw away everything but the barrel, lock, and buttplate.  He made a new maple stock in the Jacob Dickert style.  It was a good shooter.  I ended up with a CVA "Mountain Rifle" at one point.  I welded up the screw holes in the barrel rib and then soldered the rib in place.  Then I made up ramrod thimbles and soldered them on.  To round things out I cast a new nose cap because I couldn't stand the squared off look and screw holes of the original.  IIRC I modified the trigger guard as well.  It still didn't look like anything that actually existed in the past but it was better than where I started.  And I never have owned a TC "Hawken".  LOL!

Storm
Title: Re: Can you identify this smoothbore?
Post by: Captchee on June 22, 2014, 10:43:13 AM
ya i wish CVA had just done the 2 piece stock the right way . it would have looked much better . and yes long rifles and fowlers were done  with 2 piece stocks . in fact if you go back and look at the photo that Feltwad posted , you will see a Fowling piece with a 2 piece stock .  If only CVA had done alittle more work LOL
Title: Re: Can you identify this smoothbore?
Post by: Feltwad on June 22, 2014, 12:13:34 PM
Eclosed are images of a English Long Fowler now converted to percussion with the drom and nipple principle the brass furniture  shows it was prior to 1780,s  with an Acorn Finial on the trigger guard.Although it is classed has an English Fowler it is not true English made because the barrel is Spanish made in Madrid,notice the sideplate and butt plate are brass later they were mainly steel with the pineapple finial
Feltwad
A Flint Lock will not secure a chicken house door
Title: Re: Can you identify this smoothbore?
Post by: Stormrider51 on June 22, 2014, 01:23:42 PM
So the brass trigger guard with an acorn finial is early and later ones were made with steel and a pineapple finial?  That's interesting.  Thanks for posting this.  I had completely ignored smoothbores until recently.  Now an old dog has to learn new tricks.

Storm
Title: Re: Can you identify this smoothbore?
Post by: Nit Wit on September 15, 2014, 07:57:44 AM
Was this gun originally from Maine?
NW
Title: Re: Can you identify this smoothbore?
Post by: Nit Wit on September 16, 2014, 10:15:07 AM
storm:
If that's from Maine it was built by Karl Johnson Dresden Maine.
It is a TOTW kit.
Hope that helps.
Nit Wit
Title: Re: Can you identify this smoothbore?
Post by: Stormrider51 on September 16, 2014, 10:26:59 AM
NW...  I think you solved the mystery for me.  The rifle did come from Maine and the initials on the barrel are KJ.  Thank you!  TOW kit or not, Mr. Johnson did some fine work.  This one is a keeper.

Storm