Traditional Muzzleloading Association
Traditional Firearms => Flintlock Long Guns => Topic started by: Stormrider51 on December 08, 2014, 04:02:31 PM
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Back in November I ordered a Club Butt in-the-white from Jackie Brown. It was shipped 12/03 and got here today. That's five days and it was shipped Priority Mail 2-Day. Gotta love Christmas shipping! Anyway, the box was battered but the gun was fine thanks to good packing. I'll attach a photo fresh out of the box. On closer examination I noticed that the inletting of the lock, the brass insert that takes the place of a sideplate, and the buttplate could have been tighter. The trigger guard looks fine. Especially glaring was the fact that the stock at the muzzle was lopsided, being thicker and longer on one side than the other. (I've already corrected that so I can't take a photo.) The shape of the buttstock is asymmetric. It almost looks like it has a cast for a lefty and rather than get into a major stock reshaping I'm going to say that's what it is. Still, this is a gun that I paid $750 for. That's about what it would have cost me to purchase the parts from Track as a kit that would require a lot more work to complete. An in-the-white gun from TVM goes for over $1,000. This is not to mention that I don't know of anybody else turning out Dutch Club Butt smoothies.
I'm planning to post additional messages and photos as I go through the process of finishing this gun. Once completed I will do a shooting evaluation. One worry that I had before ordering was whether the design of the stock would feel as ungainly as it appeared. I'm happy to say that the first time I shouldered it I found my cheek comfortably on the stock with a perfect view of the front sight.
Storm
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It never ceases to amaze me how ungainly and graceful those are at the same time.
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You gonna get a canoe to go with that nice paddle.......????.......Tom
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Maybe THAT'S a canoe gun!
Storm
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Yeah, can't complain too much for the $. JB makes these guns to fit a price point, so it is what it is. Although, I rarely hear of such issues with his guns.
If you want to see perfect inletting, I''l show you my Mike Brooks type G...that cost $1800. 
As to the stock style, if you watch the show Anthony Bourdain: Parts Unknown, there is an episode where Bourdain travels to Lyon, France with another famous chef (Daniel Boulud).
They go duck hunting with France's most famous chef, Paul Bocuse.
The O/U shotgun that Boulud carries has a club butt reminiscent of the French "buccaneer" guns of the late 17th century.
Mario
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Saw and handled this one in person today and in some respects, Stormrider is being pretty gracious in his description of the stock and the work, or lack thereof that went into it. I suppose there are numerous interpretations of what the term "in the white" actually means so I'll leave it up to everyone reading this thread to define that for themselves. At any rate, eventually this will be a pretty nice shooting piece but much more work will have to be done than I would have put up with. However, I'm not a gunsmith and SR-51 is.
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In the white can mean many different things . I have seen in the white to mean little more then a roughed out plank with the parts inlet all the way up to near having only to finish sand the stock .
Frankly from the photos I cant see an issue . Yes there is work to be done . But at 750.00 , frankly , you just cleared the parts cost . So for a pre-carve with the parts inlet you got a bang up deal
Again folks , always ask ; to what level do you finish your in the white guns .
If the price range is within a couple hundred of a finished piece most times you will get something very close to being finished
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Just a quick update. I'm still sanding on the stock to remove the marks left by the rotary cutter. Almost all gone now. The stock has some nice curl in places. I'll attach a photo of it after the stain was applied. I've disassembled the lock and polished all contact surfaces. It works slick now. I still haven't put a flint in it to check sparking but as it's an L&R I'm betting it will be fine. I've polished the brass furniture. I also sanded the barrel and gave it a "French Grey". I could have left it white but this is to be a hunting gun and I dislike shiny surfaces in the woods. The existing vent sits well above the pan. This could be a problem if it causes misfires but I won't know until I fire the gun. If there is a problem I believe I have room to drill and tap for a liner and eliminate the existing vent. I expect to have it ready within a week and then I can get down to the real fun. I want to see how a Dutch Club Butt handles and shoots. I already know it will be lighter than my "English" fowling piece and that is a plus.
Storm
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A stock that was properly and evenly inlet (pre carved) is one thing but this stock was anything but even. As Stormrider51 mentioned, the stock has a cast-off as if for a left handed shooter, which in this case works out but a right handed shooter would not be happy. The barrel channel is another area that was badly done. I've seen JB's work before and it's been very good. This one however, isn't one of them. The end result is really a testament to Storm's skills and being able to slick up a lock that sounded like it had sand in it the first time it was worked and salvaging a stock that was poorly carved and inlet.
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Okay, I got things sanded down to a point where I could do the final stain. The right side of the forestock still shows some marks from the rotary cutter that shaped it but the wood is now so thin that I don't dare sand any more. The opposite side is fine as it was thicker in the first place. The end result is a wispy thin fore stock that looks very graceful. I forgot to mention that the trigger/trigger plate cannot be removed so I have sanded with it in place. The breech end of the barrel was glassed and some of the glass must have made it down into the trigger mortise. I spent a fair amount of time trying to wiggle it free but it was stubbornly fixed in place. Not a big deal.
I mounted a flint in the L&R Queen Anne lock for the first time today. It makes a nice shower of sparks into the pan. I'm very happy with that. One point of interest is that the same make and model of lock on my "English" fowling piece seems to prefer the flint to be mounted bevel down while this one prefers bevel up. It's proof that every lock is a universe unto itself.
Storm
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I learned a lesson the other day. I often finish stocks with Watco Danish Oil and intended to do so with the CB. I wasn't taking into consideration that I've had this stuff since before I closed my shop in Austin and that it sat in the barn out here for two years without A/C. Remember that old woodworkers rule about trying a finish on a hidden area first? Yeah, I forgot it and just started wiping the oil on the stock. My first hint that all was not well was when I noticed that the finish appeared to be forming little balls on the surface of the wood. OOPS! I stripped it and am now going on with Birchwood Casey Tru-Oil. Unfortunately, the oil penetrated in some areas and left them darker that the surrounding wood. Photos below.
Storm
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As I get older I'm prone to more "Duh!" moments. I've been applying a coat of Tru Oil and hanging the stock outside to dry. With our high humidity it was taking several hours. Then I remembered that we have a large dehumidifier in our house. Duh! I hang the stock over the dehumidifier and it's dry in about 2 hours.
This morning I couldn't stand it anymore. There's detail work still to be done but you know how it is. I had to shoot it. The day is drizzly so I didn't try any accuracy assessment from the bench. I loaded with 75 gr FFg followed by an over powder wad, lubed cushion wad, .600 ball, and over shot card. I set a 16 oz plastic bottle of diet soda in front of the dirt berm in the yard and backed off 20 long paces. My first offhand shot center-punched the bottle and exploded it. Ignition was as fast as any flintlock I've ever fired so my concerns about the placement of the vent were groundless. The second shot finished tearing the bottle in half. In spite of it's ungainly appearance the gun is very easy to shoot. The oversized buttstock balances the barrel very well and makes swinging through an arc easy and almost effortless. Doing load development and accuracy assessment will have to wait for a drier day but I'm starting to really like my Dutch Girl.
Storm
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Good to hear that it's been a successful day.
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Happy for ya Storm
I've wanted to shoot one of those for years now...never got a chance so I'll just shoot along with you if ya don't mind.
Al
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I slipped out between rain showers today and fired the first series of five shots from the bench. Weather conditions were good except for being a bit damp. The temperature was 54 deg F, baro pressure 29.54, and a wind of 10 mph from my right rear.
I decided to begin with a load that works well in my other 20 gauge, 75 gr FFg and a .600 ball. I used shotgun wads, over powder, lubed cushion, ball, and over shot. I'll try other things, PRB, tow, etc, on a drier day as well as varying the powder charge. I recruited my wife as photographer and so was able to get a photo of the gun at ignition. She set the camera to take photos at 3 frames per second and when I did a countdown she hit the button. The result is this photo.
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If you look closely you can see that the smoke from the pan has not started to dissipate and there are flames coming out of the muzzle. In other words, ignition is fast! Fast ignition does wonders for accurate shooting. You may also note that I'm a lefty and the lock is on the right side. A friend asked me if the flash from the pan causes me to flinch? My answer is "no". I close my right eye when aiming and the commotion in the pan is no closer to my left eye than it would be with a left handed lock. Besides, I started shooting BP guns in the late 1950's and I never saw a left handed lock until I was in my 30's. By then it just wasn't a problem.
I fired a series of five shots with the above load. I wiped the bore with a patch wet with Dutch's Moose Milk between shots and followed that with a dry patch. I pick the vent after wiping and again just before priming the pan. I experienced zero misfires. Here's the result from 20 yards. I freely admit that I'm probably the cause of the vertical stringing. I suspect that because I was hitting low I was subconsciously raising the front sight for subsequent shots.
[attachment=1:29qztix9][/attachment]cb5shotswads.jpg[/attachment:29qztix9]
That was it for the day. I'll obviously need to file down the front sight but that will wait until I've completed load development. Suffice to say that I'm happy with the gun.
Storm
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That's a good grupe for the first outing with a new gun.I will like to see what you do after you two get to know each other.Ya sure did a nice job on the work on her.
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My guess is, as we're looking at all that smoke and fire, the ball has already passed through the target. Looks like that ole girl is going to do just fine.
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One of the things I noticed was the lack of muzzle rise. I've had French style guns with the drooping butt that would come up and smack me sharply under the cheekbone. My English style has less muzzle rise than the French but it's still noticeable. It is also heavier than the Dutch. The Dutch just seemed to sit there on the rest with the recoil coming mostly straight back. The felt recoil was negligible. That's probably thanks to the very wide buttplate. Here's another photo, this one of the pan powder igniting.
[attachment=0:1d6vlpfu][/attachment]cbpan.jpg[/attachment:1d6vlpfu]
Storm
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There's something very suspicious about this build, Storm. Your shop is no dirtier at the end of the build than it was at he beginning. ;) My shop is always a disaster.
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Hank, If I was to turn the camera around the other way you would see that my shop is actually one part of a 40'X38' steel building. What was originally "the barn" and my workshop is gradually being converted into our home and my wife's law office. The floor plan could be best described as "open". Therefore, and in the interest of domestic peace, I keep my area reasonably clean. All of the sanding was done outside as was the staining and finishing. Eventual plans include a separate workshop where I don't have to worry about dust settling over legal papers. LOL!
Storm
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Ahh yes, domestic peace. Wise man. That way you won't need your own lawyer.
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Them is one of those guns that just don't look right :bl th up
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Given that the weather forecast calls for things to turn cool again tomorrow I decided to get the next stage of accuracy evaluation done today. Today I had 68 degrees, humidity of 64%, wind of 10 mph almost directly in my face. Once again, the range was 20 yards, 75 gr FFg, and .600 round ball.
My first group of 5 shots was using a patched round ball instead of the shotgun wads. The result looked so much like the one with wads that I didn't bother taking a photo. It's obvious that either method of loading produces equal accuracy. I moved on.
The second group was fired using tow. I poured in the powder, ran a wad of tow down, dropped in the ball and ran another wad of tow down to hold things in place. This method of loading gave very good results in my English style smoothie. The results were not so great with the Dutch.
[attachment=0:2ih28may][/attachment]cbtow.jpg[/attachment:2ih28may]
The group is more rounded. Not bad but not as good as with shotgun wads or PRB. I also had to keep the water hose handy. The smoldering tow started a small grass fire!
My last experiment for the day was substituting FFFg powder for the FFg I'd been using. Using the same powder measure throwing 75 grains of FFg, I loaded with shotgun wads. The recoil was more substantial but group size remained roughly the same. I guess either one will work. I did note that there was less fouling in the form of unburned powder granules with the FFFg.
That's it for today. Wishing everyone a Merry Christmas!
Storm
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Thanks for the update; when are we going to see a deer or hog fall to that fowler?
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TT...The day I have a place to hunt you will know about it.
Storm
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I know John, just teasing as I know you're as anxious to go hunting as I am.
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Nice looking gun you got there! Just wondering what a "French gray" barrel finish is? Could we get a close-up?
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4-Liberty... French Grey is method of coloring metal that isn't blue or brown. I'm sure some of the more knowledgeable folks on here can give a better history than I can. The effect can be accomplished by a number of methods but the one I use is to degrease the metal, apply Brownell's Oxpho Blue in the thicker cream version, and use steel wool to spread and even the coating. The longer you rub with steel wool the deeper the color gets and in this case we don't want it too dark. I wipe off the excess blueing cream with a clean oil-free rag and I'm ready to reduce the blue to grey. This step is best done outdoors and I wear latex gloves. I use toilet bowl cleaner but any number of solutions work as long as they contain phosphorus (phosphoric acid). I'm told bleach works as well but I've never tried it. I apply the TBC using cotton balls soaked in it, let it sit for a few minutes, and flush away with running water. I dry the part, lightly steel wool the metal, and apply a good coat of gun oil. The acid will have etched the surface of the metal and reduced the color to "grey". Before I move on let me add that getting some cold blue inside a barrel won't hurt anything but avoid getting the TBC in there. The last thing you want is to etch/corrode the bore. I've tried to get a couple of photos. They aren't that good but I think do show the color.
Storm
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