Traditional Muzzleloading Association
The Center of Camp => The Campfire => Topic started by: Ohio Joe on December 29, 2018, 02:29:06 PM
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Okay, my wife and I were at Wally World this morning and I was feeling a bit adventurous so I wondered over to the food section of the store. After loading up my arms with non-essential munchies (some of which I'm eating as I type this) I walked past the "virgin olive oil" and then stopped and started thinking,,, (of course for me, very dangerous)...
Hmmm,,, virgin olive oil as a patch lube???
Well needless to say I bought a small bottle of the virgin olive oil, along with a small bottle of Crisco Pure Vegetable Oil... Neither contain sodium. (I actually read both bottles myself.) Al, Russ, & Rondo, you'd'a been proud of me, I didn't even have to get my wife Cindy to read them to me...
Anyway, I'm thinking of a home concoction by mixing these two components together (not sure what percentage) to use as a patch lube for my patched balls in my ball boards. Usually I just spit patch from these ball boards,,, and I still think spit is a great patch lube for target shooting,,, but I have to think a'head for small and large game hunting and I don't like getting into my shooting bag just to get a little tin of bore-butter out to lube a patch when reloading on the hunt.
Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Does anyone use one or the other, or both for a patch lube? And that's what I'm really looking for - the use of Olive Oil & Crisco Veg. Oil as a patch lube mix...
Thanks for any input... :shake
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I have tried every patch lube there is; including olive oil, mink oil etc..
the only ones I havent tried are sperm oil and bear oil because I cant get them.
Nothing works as well as Ballistoil and water mixed in the proper raito.
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+1. Lubes well and I never have to wipe between shots.
Nothing works as well as Ballistoil and water mixed in the proper raito.
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Joe,.... first let me congratulate you on yore "readin'". :applaud :bl th up :laffing :toast
When I first started shootin' muzzleloaders in the late 1960's, Crisco was what I used for lube for the first couple'a years, and it did a pretty good job keepin' the fouling manageable. So you might get similar results with the oil. :bl th up
I "think" Olive Oil has a bit higher tolerance for heat than the Vegetable Oil, and I don't "think" there would be any advantage of mixing the two oils together.
Now,.... if you mixed a bit of your Olive Oil with something like sheep tallow, I think you'd have a good lube (for hunting), that would surpass any commercial "Bore Butter" (which I've never had a likin' for).
I'm sittin' on several pounds sheep tallow,.... and if you'd like some to experiment with, just let me know. :bl th up Right now Sheep Tallow is kind'a hard to find, and Dixie isn't planning on getting any in any time soon, and ain't even doing back-orders on the stuff.
Are you planning on goin' to the Muzzleloader's Convention in Kearney next month?
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+1. Lubes well and I never have to wipe between shots.
Nothing works as well as Ballistoil and water mixed in the proper raito.
Joe,.... I have some Ballistol around here some place, and you can have it, if I can find it,.... I can't stand the "smell" of the stuff. :laffing
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Rondo, I'll send you a PM on the tallow... I'm not real interested in the Ballistoil, though I know many swear by it.
Matthew and Kourtney are coming up in January so I don't expect Cindy and I will be headed to Kearney for convention - though it does sound like good times. Are you and Beth going to convention?
Thanks! :shake
Joe,.... first let me congratulate you on yore "readin'". :applaud :bl th up :laffing :toast
:hairy
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OJ, I've used and written about using both "grease-" and "wet-" lubes, the latter being better for warmer weather and when you don't have to wait long to take a 2nd shot. The former is better when conditions are the reverse. If you're asking whether the EVOO + white Crisco will work, I'm guessing it will, especially if you cut patch strips, rub the mixture into both sides of the strip, "squeegee" off the excess with your fingers, then roll it up and store it. Btw, peanut oil also works and is much less $$$ than EVOO. Moreover, Stumpy's Moose Snot is my grease lube of choice since it's easy to make and allows as many as 8 full power loadings before you need to swab/wipe the bore. (You can use EVOO, Canola, or peanut oil if you can't get the specified castor oil.)
As for a wet lube, I use 1 Ballistol : 6 water and have been very happy with it, but you may want to look up Dutch Schoultz's moose milk recipe on the Traditional ML Forum as well.
One last thought: Dutch Schoultz has maintained you get better accuracy in a ML rifle when the bore is kept in ~the same condition from shot to shot by dry swabbing it. I recently went back to doing that and think he's correct and it may partially explain the decling accuracy I've experienced with several of my ML's. It only takes a few seconds and a clean flannel patch each time, but it seems to help.
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I really like the spit patch, but at our annual July Rendezvous they run three (5 shot relays) and I normally have to run a jagged spit patch down my bore between those 5 shot relays after turning in my target and posting the following one to keep the residue as soft as possible in the bore... Well needless to say 15 shots on a 100 degree or hotter afternoon, I'm a running pretty low on spit. So,,, aside from a (non spit patched) hunting load as I'd prefer a lubed patch here - I'd just kind'a like to get my ball blocks loaded (that I use at Rondy) with a lubed patch / ball combo that will get me through those 15 shots - and even though I have TC Bore Butter, I just don't like it - it's just to messy IMHO and my spit patch seems to give better accuracy. So between now and mid July I'm gonna work on a patch lube I like and one my rifle likes.
So I'm going to give that olive oil and sheep tallow a try. Who knows, it just might be the answer?
I'm probably one of the odd ones and I tried Stumpy's Moose Snot when he told us about it on the MLF way back 15/16 years ago or sometime back then - and I really didn't care for it. Some folks really like it and that's great. :shake
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Rondo, I'll send you a PM on the tallow... I'm not real interested in the Ballistoil, though I know many swear by it.
Matthew and Kourtney are coming up in January so I don't expect Cindy and I will be headed to Kearney for convention - though it does sound like good times. Are you and Beth going to convention?
Thanks! :shake
Joe,.... first let me congratulate you on yore "readin'". :applaud :bl th up :laffing :toast
:hairy
We plan on going :hairy
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If'n you are thinking the temperature of the barrel could be a factor on anything, y'all might want to consider using avocado oil. Much higher temperatures can be tolerated.
Rondo, I'm with you on the stench of Balistol. Miserable smelling stuff. Kind of reminds me of what the aroma of a dirty cat box and a month used jock strap would be if mixed together. Yuck!!! If'n anyone likes it, well, enjoy.
Years back, I shot a trail walk with a .69 caliber English Rifle. Loaded it with 200 grains of Ffg, .015 Ox Yoke Wonder Patch, a .678 round ball and a 14 gauge lubed cushion wad. 25 shot match, never wiped the bore, and the last shot loaded as easy as the first shot. The only magic was loading the cushion wad on top of the powder charge. It does wonders, cleans and lubes the bore as it is pushed down the barrel, and you get a few extra fps as well. And, if you are shooting a high charge, it keeps the patch from disintegrating. Sounds like win-win to me.
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Ohio Joe
Try this site for some "home made" gun stuff. It is not all black powder stuff but you'll just have to see what you can use.
http://www.frfrogspad.com/homemade.htm
doggoner
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Nothing works as well as Ballistoil and water mixed in the proper raito.
Not sure how much shootin you do below zero on the Fahrenheit scale, but I wind up doing a fair bit. I had a spit patch freeze in the bore once! before I switched over to mink oil. I would think the water in the moose milk would freeze too, wouldn't it? Have ya had any chance to shoot it in cold weather?
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I did a little patch / lube testing back on Dec. 29... I lubed up two patches with a 50/50 mixture of that (Olive Oil & Veg. Oil) and put those two balls in one of my ball blocks, and hung the block in my furnace room... That was 3.5 days ago as of this post... I checked them just now to see if the patch had stayed lubed and not dry out to a point where they would require some spit on them and both patches were still holding the lube just fine.
I really only need this lube for a very short period of time during the July Rendezvous shooting matches for my ball blocks - and I think from this first test of the patches holding the lube okay - the next test will be to see how they work at the Range. I'm thinking a little lambs tallow just might be needed as well - so I will test that too. :)
I'll also add that I do use the TC Bore Butter when hunting and have never had any trouble with it what-so-ever, but that may be because I melt the Bore Butter in the microwave then dip each patch and stack them - then squeeze the excess lube out of them in a stack of 20 patches... I have also used them at shooting matches but I normally will put some spit on them before loading / and once they're gone (used up) I normally just spit patch at the shooting matches and I've never noticed any difference in performance.
I would however just like to get away from spit patching all together as most of my shooting is done in very hot weather and many a'times spit is hard to come by after a'while in the heat. Least ways for me as I get older.
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Joe...the olive oil you have used to be called sweet oil (iifc) and was used for many things by the old timers that had it. I've never tried it as a lube myself...but have read of it. The EVOO you have has a lower smoke point (temp) than peanut oil canola etc.
As far as Ballistol goes...I really like it. It's good for water displacement...a la WD40...and is good on wood, metal and even leather. And as said above...it's a fine patch lube IMHO.
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Ohio Joe
try http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?26524-Just-the-facts-Lube-recipes. I think they have tried almost every mixture under the sun and a few from under the moon. You may have to try www.castboolits.gunloads.com first and go to the "stickies" in the lube threads. Good luck. I've tried several and like 2 parts olive oil and 1 part bees wax by liquid volume. I live very near the gulf coast of Mississippi (read usually hot and humid). I don't have to change the ratio during the winter because, by your standards for winter, we don't have any cold weather. Again good luck in the lube search and enjoy the "hunt".
doggoner
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Thanks Al and Doggoner... :shake
I might mention that here where I live in northwest Nebraska, I'm about 3700 feet above sea-level and though we get our share of snow and not a whole lot of rain, our humidity levels are normally pretty low year round. Many a times a 10 degree morning here can feel more like a mid to high 20's degree day and the same hold true for a 20 degree morning feeling like a mid to high 30's degree day. 'course when that wind blows, all bets are off, and we have no shortage of that here of late.
I'll have to check out that castboolits site. I know many a folks on here at the TMA Forum have mentioned this site many a times. :shake :bl th up
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Joe, I found out about Ed's Red on the TradRag site. The following is a quote from the person who first posted about it:
Trying out something old and new
Post by hawkthrower » Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:54 am
I found a recipe for a bore cleaner/patch lube and am in the process of testing it out. All accounts from other sites and from other records seem to confirm that this formula is one which both cleans up residue and removes deposits from lead and powder..... It's not friendly with wooden components so ..... don't get it on the wood!
So the formula is equal parts of the stuff in the cans = bore cleaner. If you add the lanolin you have something that will have longer lasting rust protection and which is supposed to be a little better on the hands...(I'd keep this off the hands). Then if you remove the acetone, turpentine and lanolin you have an excellent gun oil. Finally if you mix equal parts of the canned items and add a little lanolin and add some beeswax you are supposed to end up with a fantastic patch lube/bore cleaner!
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Ok guys - an update - the patch lube does not freeze! and the cleaner works better than almost anything I've tried over the last 50 years! all I can say so far is the stuff works great!! It is easy to mix up and seems to be very protective on the metal - only downside is the red might darken lighter wood if you spill. On metal parts it works fantastic for a fully clean and protected result.....
more later after I've had time to test the anti rust potential
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What was the ratio of beeswax to Ed's Red that you used?
Thanks,
~WH~
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about 1cu.in. of bees wax to 1/8 to 1/4 ounce of Ed's Red and add 1/8 tsp more lanolin..... heat gently to melt the bees wax first add lanolin then add Ed's Red to taste..... the more you add the stinkier and the more liquid the paste will be. I like the paste to be just a "little bit soft" so it stays put in the tin. The consistency is difficult to determine before the wax has cooled so go slow, you can warm the tin and add more Ed's Red if you want to soften it, if you over do it and its too soupy you'll will have to add wax..... You may like it a bit more soft or hard depending on your taste......
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You might also look at Junior Doughty's site and his "Junior Lube": http://castbullet.com/makeit/lube.htm
While you're there, check out the rest of the site; it's chock full of good information. The world lost a good man when Junior died! You might send an email to his daughter in appreciation that she is keeping the site up....
~Kees~
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Kees....I do miss Junior and the many "late night" discussions we had many years back. Good man for sure!
I'm also a fan of Ed's Red, have been for a very long time.
Also, here lately, I have become more interested in the combination of Sweet Oil and Veg. Oil, this comes from my reading, and boredom of being home bound for long periods of time.
Like Joe, I made up a small batch and put it on patches on a ball board....just checked that ball board and although it looked dry when I punched one out, lube was still present when I rubbed it between my thumb an finger.
I'm not exactly sure when I did this but, IIRC it was early to mid October and the heat has been on in the shop for a good 45 or so days.
I'm not sure how significant that is in the long run, but to a simple man, using such simple products, I was impressed.
Russ...
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Kees....I do miss Junior and the many "late night" discussions we had many years back. Good man for sure!
I'm also a fan of Ed's Red, have been for a very long time.
Also, here lately, I have become more interested in the combination of Sweet Oil and Veg. Oil, this comes from my reading, and boredom of being home bound for long periods of time.
Like Joe, I made up a small batch and put it on patches on a ball board....just checked that ball board and although it looked dry when I punched one out, lube was still present when I rubbed it between my thumb an finger.
I'm not exactly sure when I did this but, IIRC it was early to mid October and the heat has been on in the shop for a good 45 or so days.
I'm not sure how significant that is in the long run, but to a simple man, using such simple products, I was impressed.
Russ...
That's good to hear Russ. Thanks for that info - it's very helpful! :bl th up
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Okay, I started some experimentation tonight;
I melted and mixed up; 1 oz of Lambs Tallow and added it to 1 oz of extra virgin olive oil, and added both of those to 1 oz of pure vegetable oil... Mixed it together really good and then lubed up some patches with it and put them in a ball block to be tested in two to three weeks, depending on our weather.
The mixture certainly seems slick enough.
A quick note; As the mixture cools it's stiffing up a bit (not a lot at this point) and it also looks like the same color as the TC Bore Butter, only a tad lighter...
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Nothing works as well as Ballistoil and water mixed in the proper raito.
Not sure how much shootin you do below zero on the Fahrenheit scale, but I wind up doing a fair bit. I had a spit patch freeze in the bore once! before I switched over to mink oil. I would think the water in the moose milk would freeze too, wouldn't it? Have ya had any chance to shoot it in cold weather?
Hey Riley,
I don't do much shooting when it's below zero, I've never been anywhere it gets that cold. However, you let all the water evaporate out of the patching. Only the oil is left. It wont freeze.
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Just a quick note before I head off to work;
Here's what I landed on and it seems to be the right formula (for me) - and I still have to test it, but I'm a thinking it'll do what I want it to do;
2 - Table Spoons Lamb Tallow
2 - Teaspoons Virgin Olive Oil
1 - Teaspoon Pure Veg. Oil
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Look at the bright side of things, Joe. Pretty soon, you won't have to interrupt your scientific experimentations by running off to work. :applaud
Looking at your formula makes me wonder about something. Why 2 tsp olive oil and 1 tsp veggie oil?
Adding the veg oil to the olive oil just sounds redundant to me. But, what do I know? I don't think I would have thought of mixing the two.
Hoping it works great for you.
John
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Aw John, think about it...Joe can just wrap some patching around what ever he shoots and cook it right up! :*:
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Aw John, think about it...Joe can just wrap some patching around what ever he shoots and cook it right up! :*:
:laffing You know me to well Two Steps :toast
John, I can't rightly say why I added the veggie oil - but it sounds healthy and I had it, so's I was a'gonna try it... :toast :laffing
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Here's a picture of the patch lube I made... Don't mistake it for cupcakes... :laughing
Still have to Range test it.
(https://i.imgur.com/zUbNEvl.jpg?1)
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Looks good 'nuff to eat! :hairy :laffing :toast
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WHAT!?! No sprinkles? ;D
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Ohio Joe
Here is another read for the lube hunt.
https://user.xmission.com/~drudy/hist_text-arch5/msg00973.html
It is a good read.
doggoner
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Following on to what they were talking about on that thread, first I must say that was a great walk down memory lane. I really hadn't thought much about the "lube wars" between Ox-Yoke and Lub103 and the "How many shots can you get without cleaning your rifle" silliness. In the middle of all that, we happened to visit with the good folks at Ox Yoke one year. Stan took me into the basement and showed me their test range, a 50 yard target lane. They had the rifle leaning on a loading bench and it did look like it had fired how ever many hundreds of shots, and the outside of it surely had not been cleaned. The more I thought about it the more convinced I became that the only way they could have accomplished that was to shoot squib loads of maybe 25 grains of Ffffg powder. Pooooofffff, that was it. I seriously doubt if they ever loaded it up with a real life charge. I think they were using a New Englander rifle, but I don't know what that would have to do with anything, one way or the other.
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That was a good read, doggoner,,, :bl th up
I will say this about patch lube;
I will always prefer a spit-patch when target shooting as long as I can generate enough spit (which is mighty hard to do at times when the temperatures start tipping the 90 degree + mark)... Then I need a lubed patch 'cause spit can become in short supply.
I will always prefer a lubed patched ball combo for hunting as that load may stay in my rifle for days or weeks, possibly even a month or better - and I would never want to risk forming a "rust ring" where a spit patch may find itself repeatedly in my rifle bore...
Now I'm not looking for a "super" lube by any stretch of the imagination. I'm just looking for a lube that works that I can make from everyday items from around the house/kitchen. At the same time, it is rather enjoyable doing this "lube quest"
:shake
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WHAT!?! No sprinkles? ;D
Al, can you believe it,,, the kids and grand kids, along with grandma,,, well they used up all the sprinkles on Christmas cookies... :Doh! What a world... :pray: :lol sign
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The nerve of some people. ::)
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I know, Hank! :lol sign
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But Joe, it's for science. Go down to the grocery store right now and buy some more. You owe it to the world. Get some glitter while you are at it. I sure do miss the ROTF thingie.
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You're right John. If we're a gonna do it, we may as well do it up right! :applaud :laffing
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Since winter arrived and my bore butter froze up solid, I started looking for a better, cheaper, all-weather lube. On another forum , I found a recipe that was simple, cheap, and only used household ingredients . I've used it since December and it fits the bill for me.
3 parts non-ammonia Windex and 1 part Murphy's Oil Soap. It's that simple.
I use this and a linen patch, it shoots great, never freezes. Post shoot clean up is easier, too.
Does anyone else use linen for patch material? Old white sheets make 100s of patches for free.
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Since winter arrived and my bore butter froze up solid, I started looking for a better, cheaper, all-weather lube. On another forum , I found a recipe that was simple, cheap, and only used household ingredients . I've used it since December and it fits the bill for me.
3 parts non-ammonia Windex and 1 part Murphy's Oil Soap. It's that simple.
I use this and a linen patch, it shoots great, never freezes. Post shoot clean up is easier, too.
Does anyone else use linen for patch material? Old white sheets make 100s of patches for free.
Here is a link to an old lube recipe that works much like you describe, and has been around for many years. :bl th up
http://mamaflinter.tripod.com/id10.html
I've tried linen for patching and discovered it works well in rifles with fairly shallow riflings,.... my (current) rifles all have fairly deep riflings, so I use (and like) 0.018"-0.020" pillow ticking (measured with my calipers).
When choosing patch material,.... the first thing I do is take a lubed strip of material and a ball that's 0.010" smaller than bore size and "short-start" it in the barrel, then grab the excess material left sticking out of the bore with a pair of pliers and pull the ball and material back out.
I then check to see if there is a good "weave imprint" embedded around the ball and there are no cuts from a sharp muzzle in the material.
If everything looks good,.... I then charge the gun with powder and shoot 10-12 shots, then start looking for the used patches on the ground, about 5-10 yards in front of where I was doing the shooting.
Recovered patches can tell you if the patch material is sealing well enough to prevent "burn through" from hot gases which can effect accuracy. :bl th up
If the recovered patches look black and shredded, I then either, try balls that are 0.005" bigger, or hunt for a thicker piece of cotton material, and start over again. :bl th up
Recovered patches SHOULD look good enough to reuse. :hairy
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Thanks, rollingb. That means I'm golden. My fired patches are light grey and frayed slightly on the edges. :bl th up
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Thanks, rollingb. That means I'm golden. My fired patches are light grey and frayed slightly on the edges. :bl th up
Mark, FWIW, I'm not sure as why it is, but it has been a "Coon's Age" since I found a burned patch.
I used to, years ago, in fact I saw it a lot.
Better barrels, better patch material, better lube?
I have no clue as to when or it how it stopped, it certainly wasn't because I was shooting less powder.
However, I do have a strong suspicion it was better ball and patch fit.
I quit using "one size fits all, pillow ticking" and started adjusting ball / patch to where I needed the short-starter less and less.
I've yet to reach my goal of "thumb starting" on every different gun / caliber I shoot, but I am pretty close on several.
I look at every patch I find. Just a habit I suspect, while realizing I will never find 'em all, so I collect what I can find.
Like you say, there's a bunch of 'em that could easily be used again, perhaps even twice over, but then I think, "where did this round ball impact?"
Was it a 10? Or was it a flyer?
That 'uglier than usual patch' was it a 10 or was it a flyer?
:Doh!
Reading Patches is serious work, work that will make your head hurt trying to separate the wheat from the chafe.
But you have to admit, it's all fun!
Russ...
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Good advice, Russ. I suppose I could number my patches with a pen but that would seem to much like work. ;D