Traditional Muzzleloading Association

Traditional Firearms => Flintlock Long Guns => Topic started by: Pinecone on February 25, 2009, 05:56:45 PM

Title: Trade Gun or Fowler?
Post by: Pinecone on February 25, 2009, 05:56:45 PM: Okay...here is a question for all of you experienced smooth bore folks. I am going to buy a 20 ga. smooth bore and am looking at several choices right now. I am trying to decide between a Trade Gun and a Fowler like a Fusil Fin. I have shot trad blackpowder rifles for years, but do not know much about the smooth bores. What would you recommend and why?

Thanks!

Claudia
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Post by: rollingb on February 25, 2009, 06:10:36 PM: I have two 20's,... one is a NWTG with a 41" barrel, and the other one is an Early English Fusil with a 30" barrel.
I find myself using the Early English Fusil the most, but I think it's purely just a matter of weight and balance. Also, the shorter barrel is a little handier on horse-back, and in thick brush.
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Post by: mario on February 25, 2009, 06:18:01 PM: Are you planning on re-enacting? If so, than your choice depends on you time, place and persona.

If not, than it's whichever you like the best.

The NW guns have a straighter stock, the French guns a bit of curve.

Mario
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Post by: Pinecone on February 25, 2009, 08:15:44 PM: I won't be doing any re-enacting...just hunting and shooting. I have a passion for traditional bows and traditional blackpowder arms, so it only seems natural that I find my way to a smoothbore .

Claudia
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Post by: Captchee on February 25, 2009, 09:48:15 PM: well i would also add that another issue is leaght . a long barrel is alittle hard to get used to in the swing of wing shooting . but once you have it down , you shouldnt have a problem.
myself i like both the long and short barrels
as was already said , the NW guns are strait and square to the comb .
myself i like the frenchies or earlir english trade guns better
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Post by: Buffler Razz on February 25, 2009, 09:56:46 PM: Pinecone,
Welcome to the TMA. Have not seen you since the bidding wars during the TG St Judes Auction.

I just took delivery of all the pieces parts to build a Colonial Fowler in 20 gauge. My preference was for the fowler. I like the lines of it, the fitted buttplate and the long trigger guard. Plus, the wood I have is cherry which most likely would not have been used in a Trade Gun. I think it gets to what you like. I have a few frieds with Tullies and I have shot them. I personally don't care for the look of the curve of the stock.
Razz
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Post by: tg on February 25, 2009, 10:17:48 PM: You would do well to try and put some of these to the shoulder some do not like the Pied de vache stock of the "Tulle" hunting guns, the French trade guns have straighter stocks and the English guns even straighter stocks, most find the NW gun fits/shoots very well some prefer a bit more curvature/drop you will not know untill you have tried them, I prefer the Pied de Vache after having tried or owned all the others but I was able to work on the comb as I worked the wood down to get it where it was best for me.
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Post by: Pinecone on February 26, 2009, 08:17:10 AM: Thanks, everyone. I'm leaning toward a Fowler at this point as I do like some drop and curvature to the butt.

Buffler...good to see ya again! I'll be doing my thing for St. Judes again this year, so I hope I see you over there as well.

Claudia
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Post by: mark davidson on February 26, 2009, 10:06:20 AM: Dumb question??? What is the basic difference between a "fowler" and a "trade gun." I'm new so please be kind. :-)
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Post by: tg on February 26, 2009, 12:23:56 PM: Quite often the trade guns were a cheaper lower quality version of the current style of Fowler that was predominate in a particular country.
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Post by: mario on February 26, 2009, 04:09:06 PM: Quote from: "tg"
Quite often the trade guns were a cheaper lower quality version of the current style of Fowler that was predominate in a particular country.

Pretty much.

Add to that: Fowlers were made for white folks. Trade guns (although bought by white folks) were predominantly meant for the Indian Trade.

There are various styles within each group.

Mario
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Post by: Flint62Smoothie on February 26, 2009, 10:10:48 PM: Quote from: "Captchee"
as was already said , the NW guns are strait and square to the comb .
myself i like the frenchies or earlir english trade guns better

I too prefer the stock design of the Fowlers to the plainess (to me) of the Trade Guns. I just find the fowlers to be more graceful, with better lines.
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Post by: russ t frizzen on February 27, 2009, 12:54:44 AM: It's been my experience that the longer barreled smoothbores tend to throw tighter patterns. I like the fowlers because they have sweeter lines and better balance. I would not be overly concerned about the long barrels. They just aren't a problem in the woods. I think that people who have trouble with the long guns might be better off going around whatever sort of brush or thicket that's hanging them up. If you're struggling through bramble patches and such, you've got bigger problems to worry about than barrel length--such as what the devil you are doing there in the first place.
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Post by: Sir Michael on February 27, 2009, 02:11:23 AM: If you are looking for a smoothbore I'd have to recommend a fowler. You can get one at just about any level of quality you want and fitted out to your liking.

As was said earlier, a Trade Gun be it NW, French, or American is a reproduction of just about the cheapest gun it was possible to make during the 1700s and 1800s for trade with the indians.

Other than for use in "Trade Gun" shoots, a Trade Gun makes a poor substitute for a fowler. Although it will work as one. And a good quality fowler can be used in "Trade Gun" shoots.

I have a Trade Gun. I also have an over/under cap lock shotgun. Some day I'll get a good fowler. However, I'll never let the Trade Gun or the Shotgun get away.
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Post by: Longhunter on February 27, 2009, 08:28:04 AM: I've got many rifles but to me the biggest benefit of a smoothbore is it's versatility. That being it's capability to shoot both shot and roundball. I've had some smoothbores that when loaded with a ball wouldn't shoot where aimed. Old timers when faced with this problem would have to hold off target to drop the ball where they wanted it to hit or sometimes they'd put the barrel in the crotch of a tree and try and bend it enough to bring it in line. I have found it easier to sell the gun and hope the next one will "shoot center"

I have an English Fowler built for me by Jud Brennan in 1979. This gun not only throws a good turkey killin shot pattern but it also shoot a ball like a rifle. In fact, back in the day when I was shooting a lot of competition, I made many a rifleman hang his head in shame after they were beaten by "Ole Melon Buster" my 12ga smootbore.

Ole Melon Buster got it's name many years ago not long after it had been made. I carried it on a survival trek with half a doz other men. We had camped and everyone went out to try and bring in some meat for the pot. I debated whether to load my smoothbore with shot for squirrel or grouse or roundball for somethin bigger. I opted to load a RB on top of 80gr's of 2FF. I came onto a porcupine high in a tree. I steadied my gun against a tree, lined up the front bead on the head of the porky with the shadow of the tang screw and squeezed the trigger.

When I brought the headless critter back to camp, someone said, "Wow, you busted his head like a ripe melon". "Ole Melon Buster got it's name.

(http://www.shrewbows.com/rons_linkpics/Flintlock-bird.JPG)
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Post by: tg on February 27, 2009, 10:53:27 AM: Some of the Fusil Fins made for NA chiefs or the French Fusil de Chasse Fin would be quite a bit better than the common trade gun of the same style/type. it is al about the fit of the gun .

"such as what the devil you are doing there in the first place."

Help! I have fallen in the briars and can't get out!
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Post by: rollingb on February 27, 2009, 02:35:32 PM: Quote from: "russ t frizzen"
It's been my experience that the longer barreled smoothbores tend to throw tighter patterns. I like the fowlers because they have sweeter lines and better balance. I would not be overly concerned about the long barrels. They just aren't a problem in the woods. I think that people who have trouble with the long guns might be better off going around whatever sort of brush or thicket that's hanging them up. If you're struggling through bramble patches and such, you've got bigger problems to worry about than barrel length--such as what the devil you are doing there in the first place.

Quite often when hunting, you'll find yourself crossing places like creeks, thickets, brushy ravines, over-grown wash outs, blow-downs, and etc., just to get from "point A, to point B". ;)
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Post by: mark davidson on February 27, 2009, 02:51:00 PM: About a month back, I found myself in an awful thicket chasing a small buck I had just shot. It was the first time I realized just how long and unhandy my 42" barreled flinter really was. It was hung on something constantly. For the first time, shorter really seemed like a good idea! Also I often like to stalk or still hunt mid morning when I get bored sitting or too cold to sit any longer. I like to move through the thick stuff and doing so with the long barreled gun I have is doable but not efficient or fluid by any means. My next thumper will have less tube!
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Post by: Mitch on February 27, 2009, 03:49:23 PM: as was said about barrel length-to each his own....I hunt some serious brush country here in SW Colorado and have hunted Arkansas/Texas,etc. and have never had a problem with a 42in barrel...I believe most of the "problems" folks have come from shooting "short" guns most of your life....longer barrels just appeal to my eye also...
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Post by: Pinecone on February 27, 2009, 05:05:56 PM: Thanks again for all of the comments. Hey, Ron...good to see ya. Great story about the Porkie and the melon gun!

Claudia
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Post by: pathfinder on February 27, 2009, 06:09:27 PM: Good point Mr.Frizzen. I often wondered why folks get hung up in the brush. I've really seen no difference between the long and shorter barrels as far as accuracy goes in the field. I prefer the Northwest Trade gun with a 41" barrel. Seems to shoulder and point a little better for me than Tulle's or Fowler's,although you can go with more of a rifle style with a fowler if that's what you like. Go to some shoots and ask if you could try different one's if there are. Most guy's would love to help ya out.
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Post by: jasontn on February 28, 2009, 12:54:21 PM: ..
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Post by: Sir Michael on February 28, 2009, 03:51:42 PM: Those are interesting side plates where did you get them? I've never seen one exactly like them before.
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Post by: Pinecone on February 28, 2009, 04:15:09 PM: Very nice piece, jasontn! Thanks for posting your pics.
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Post by: jasontn on February 28, 2009, 06:06:22 PM: ..
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Post by: tg on February 28, 2009, 07:07:17 PM: Where did the parts set come from if I may ask, that side plate caught my eye as well.
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Post by: jasontn on February 28, 2009, 08:31:27 PM: ...
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Post by: Sir Michael on February 28, 2009, 09:22:14 PM: :hairy :toast :notworthy :clap
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Post by: tg on February 28, 2009, 09:34:21 PM: Yeah, it turned out real nice.
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Post by: jasontn on February 28, 2009, 10:35:28 PM: ..
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Post by: tg on March 01, 2009, 08:02:45 AM: "If long-barreled rifleguns were for everybuddy,.... there'd be no short-barreled rifleguns in existance"

this is true, though the short barreld guns were few in numbers when compared to the longer guns during the last quarter of the 18th century and into the beginning of the 19th. it also depends on where we make the break as to what is short, I have considered anything under 42" as short and anything over as long, many will probably have a different set of lengths to stick in the equation , I doubt that there is an "official" answer to where the break point is.
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Post by: pathfinder on March 02, 2009, 08:41:18 AM: I made the mistake of trying one to see if I liked it or not...........Don't shoot the rifles much anymore.