Traditional Muzzleloading Association
Shooting Traditional Firearms and Weapons => General Interest => Topic started by: Puffer on February 26, 2020, 01:08:07 PM
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The .46-caliber Girandoni air rifle was a secret weapon on the Lewis and Clark Expedition. ??
Any added comments ????
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The .46-caliber Girandoni air rifle was a secret weapon on the Lewis and Clark Expedition. ??
Any added comments ????
Indeed it was, to my understanding... He baffled the Native Tribes with it - being able to fire continuously with it - without reloading it in the conventional way like the muzzleloading fire arms... Big medicine!!!! I understand he even kilt a buffler with it. :o
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https://youtu.be/-pqFyKh-rUI
Thanks for bringing this to light. I did not realize the importance of this weapon.
But then I live in Oregon and have never visited Fort Clatsop.
Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
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Interesting video. What I remember from Ambrose's book and other sources, is that no one knows for sure WHO made the air rifle carried on the L&C expedition. It could have been a Girandoni, but there were others available as well. Correct me if I'm wrong as I'm going by a failing memory....
Kees
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What amazes me is a type of "needle valve" technology of that time with what I would imagine leathers & spring bearing to hold and charge a cylinder with that much pressure, and the "pump" to do it with... What was it he said,,, 1500 strokes for a full charge... Amazing IMHO for the time period... :o
https://youtu.be/2dZLeEUE940
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1500 strokes with a bicycle pump. I don't know what type of pump they had for it back then. I'll have to dig out Ambrose's book and see if he has anything on that.
Kees
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Kees, in the video I posted above you, the guy in that shows one, and how to use it. Also shows a pack that the soldier would have been issued when he carried one of these rifles... Actually, pretty amazing stuff. Worth a watch for sure.He also tells why the rifle carried a ramrod.
:shake
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air guns have their place, but mostly not so much. however, the girandoni was simply a marvelous achievement for its time.
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He mentioned that the Austrian army would later use them as sniper rifles. It seems they would have to use them as single shots or keep them fully loaded. Other wise they would be awfully noisy. Not a good thing for a sniper.
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He mentioned that the Austrian army would later use them as sniper rifles. It seems they would have to use them as single shots or keep them fully loaded. Other wise they would be awfully noisy. Not a good thing for a sniper.
Good point Hank, however with no flash or smoke and range out to 100 - 125 yards, might make a good rifle to take out Pickets in the evening, and any men or officers that may present themselves as targets, especially when one takes in camp noise as a factor for concealing where the shot came from? :shake
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In the video at 4:13 off his left shoulder on the wall with a horn patch/ball and what appears to be a ball starter. Is this a h/c item or a prop for display? If it is a h/c item what time period is it from.
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I saw it. It looks like a ball starter to me as well. I don't know if we can pin point an exact time period on the display. I would expect it to represent the Lewis & Clark time period...
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short ball starter? let's think on this a bit. the predominant firestick of the 18th century was the smoothbore musket or fowler. it's predominant use was for three key reasons - sustenance, defense, warfare. this made far better practical sense for the citizen farmer as a hunter/defender since one gun could do it all, particularly mid 18th century as medium game in the nor'east was literally decimated by the native americans so they could barter skins for trade guns and game for table fare was more fowl than deer. the rate of fire was best for the military, specifically for 17th and 18th defense and warfare, where quick shots trumped accuracy, and as such the speed of loading was mandatory. as a result of this need, tight loads and/or rifled bores (and their pervasive fouling) were avoided like the smallpox plague. so were rifles in the general military and on more than a few occasions militia joining the American army had to trade in rifles for muskets. so while there might have been military short ball starters in europe during the late 18th century through early 19th century, their use was not widespread and no proof in either prose or physical artifact has yet to be found here in the Americas. this is not to say short starters did not exist for the Colonials; i believe they had to have existed, but were absolutely for special purposes and not at all the norm.
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I tend to agree with Rob about the use, or lack of, short starters 200-300 years ago,.... I also think, if a short starter is ever found and can be documented as being from the 1700's-1800's, it won't look like the one hanging on that wall which (suspiciously) resembles the modern commercial starters available today.
Just my opinion FWIW. :)
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One thing about the ol' ball starter... If it wasn't used to load a tight patched ball back in what we call the "day" - in the future (if traditional muzzle loading survives the future) the short starter will be common place...
Heck, I've already used one for 44/45 years now - so that's closing in on a half century... I would have had to have gotten the idea of a "short starter" from those that were using them prior to me using one... So just how far it dates back is really unknown, but in today's world - it's a pretty common placed item for loading a rifled barrel, so I wouldn't worry to much about it.
With the above said; This past weekend I finished setting up one of my shooting bags with two ball boards,,, one with patched .433 balls for loading without the "ball starter" - and one with .445 balls for loading with a ball starter... So I reckon I'm covered both ways should I ever end up in a shooting match that says I can't use a short starter (which I doubt this will ever happen) - but if it does, I'm ready! :bl th up
All I have to do know is work on my less accurate .433 patch & ball load... Which I'll do if the wind ever stops blowing. :shake
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I tend to agree with Rob about the use, or lack of, short starters 200-300 years ago,.... I also think, if a short starter is ever found and can be documented as being from the 1700's-1800's, it won't look like the one hanging on that wall which (suspiciously) resembles the modern commercial starters available today.
Just my opinion FWIW. :)
I agree, Rondo... :shake
I did see a hunting video not to long ago where the guy short started a patched ball with nothing more then a short dowel rod... I'll have to see if I can't find the video - but I thought it made a lot of sense the way he did it. :shake
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Starting a patched ball with a stick; (To me, this makes sense) - but I'm no expert... :shake
Here we go, I found it... It appears just after the 6:45 mark... Click on the link below;
https://youtu.be/c_Dx-EFN6P4
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Starting a patched ball with a stick; (To me, this makes sense) - but I'm no expert... :shake
Here we go, I found it... It appears just after the 6:45 mark... Click on the link below;
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Pedersoli+flintlock+Squirrel+Hunt&&view=detail&mid=A9A94EE10476C54147E2A9A94EE10476C54147E2&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3DPedersoli%2520flintlock%2520Squirrel%2520Hunt%26qs%3Dn%26form%3DQBVR%26sp%3D-1%26pq%3Dpedersoli%2520flintlock%2520squirrel%2520hunt%26sc%3D0-33%26sk%3D%26cvid%3D589470B9BAD149BEA69DA63162EA8615
I'm sorry Joe, your link has me confused,.... can you link to a particular video?
Thanks! :shake
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I got it fixed Rondo. :bl th up
Click on the video and go to the 6:45 time in the video and it shows this young man just using a simple stick as a short starter - which in my mind may very well be why we've never seen what we term a "short starter" in a shooting pouch... If today's experts looked into and old shooting bag and found a stick - they may have no idea why it was even in there, and pitched it, or didn't even bother to the idea of why it was in the old bag. :shake
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I got it fixed Rondo. :bl th up
Click on the video and go to the 6:45 time in the video and it shows this young man just using a simple stick as a short starter - which in my mind may very well be why we've never seen what we term a "short starter" in a shooting pouch... If today's experts looked into and old shooting bag and found a stick - they may have no idea why it was even in there, and pitched it, or didn't even bother to the idea of why it was in the old bag. :shake
I like it,... primitive and possibly what hunters may have used in the past. :bl th up
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I got it fixed Rondo. :bl th up
Click on the video and go to the 6:45 time in the video and it shows this young man just using a simple stick as a short starter - which in my mind may very well be why we've never seen what we term a "short starter" in a shooting pouch... If today's experts looked into and old shooting bag and found a stick - they may have no idea why it was even in there, and pitched it, or didn't even bother to the idea of why it was in the old bag. :shake
I like it,... primitive and possibly what hunters may have used in the past. :bl th up
I cut myself a 5-1/2" piece of 3/8 dowel, and I'm going to test this "stick" idea in that above video... I've got my Range bag set up for both loose loading .433 patch & ball (where all is needed is the ramrod), and I also have some .445 patched balls in "ball blocks" in my shooting bag. So if the damn wind would ever stop - I'll go to the Range and test this stick for short starting the patched .445 ball. Probably ain't gonna happen until next week the way it looks. :bl th up
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I got it fixed Rondo. :bl th up
Click on the video and go to the 6:45 time in the video and it shows this young man just using a simple stick as a short starter - which in my mind may very well be why we've never seen what we term a "short starter" in a shooting pouch... If today's experts looked into and old shooting bag and found a stick - they may have no idea why it was even in there, and pitched it, or didn't even bother to the idea of why it was in the old bag. :shake
I like it,... primitive and possibly what hunters may have used in the past. :bl th up
I cut myself a 5-1/2" piece of 3/8 dowel, and I'm going to test this "stick" idea in that above video... I've got my Range bag set up for both loose loading .433 patch & ball (where all is needed is the ramrod), and I also have some .445 patched balls in "ball blocks" in my shooting bag. So if the damn wind would ever stop - I'll go to the Range and test this stick for short starting the patched .445 ball. Probably ain't gonna happen until next week the way it looks. :bl th up
:hairy
I found a 6" piece of dowel on the bench yesterday and started to trash it,
Then I just happened to put the calibers on it and found it to be .453 or thereabouts, so guess where that went.....??
This simple "stick" could well be The Holy Grail of Short Starters, and answer many questions going back for years and years.
It has always stood to reason, to me, that a short-starter "of some sort" was, in all likelihood being used", but with all of toady's more modern looking short starters, I honestly believe that myself and thousands, if not tens of thousands, were overlooking the obvious, we couldn't see the forest for the Trees in other words, there's just no way a simple stick can resemble a Modern day short-starter.....so it was simply said, and believed my many, including myself at that time, that the Modern Day Starter was just not use prior to 1840...I was told that, I believed that.
But I continued to use one when I had an exceptionally tight load, all while many quit using one, using their knife to seat the ball and patch, whack it off, then seat the ball on the powder with the Ram Rod....I broke two nice Hickory Ramrods doing this same trick, so I quit and went back to the short-starter, and pre-cut patches.....
But what would I know? I haven't tried this stick yet, but I'm eager to do so.
I'm going to need a "Gun, and Essentials Porter" on my next trip to the Range, I can see it coming...and that's going to happen soon. I understand this wind has dried up the mess from the winter and the road into the Range has been back-drug to the point you can get in and out with no problems....now shooting in this wind, should it show its ugly face, that's going to be a Hoss of a whole 'nother color.
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to each their own, which is always a good thing as we all learn new ways to skin the ol' cat.
once a patch has been cut at the muzzle around a ball the question is, "can i thumb seat it past the rifling?". this is where the load process is most interesting.
with the typical "18th century load" for smoothbore or rifle, a thumb push is too ridiculously easy for the first shot fired and a bit taxing for the 6th or 12th shot fired as powder residue builds up in the tube, and/or if the bore near the muzzle is intentionally "choked". fouling control is rarely if ever employed; that's a waste of time where rate of fire rules the roost.
with the typical "21st century load" for smoothbore or rifle, something needs to push, or rather "smack!" that thickly patched ball past the muzzle. this will be some manner of tight fit - either too fat a ball or too thick a patching or both, and all are intentional because we modern muzzleloaders know that's where the consistent accuracy lies - tight ball loads - because none of us require rapid rate of fire since we have no redcoats or hostiles looking to kill or scalp us.
but why a plain ended short stick when a short stick with a palm end (ball or knob) is so much kinder to the hand? makes no sense to me.
in any event, the hardest part of getting a tight ball down the tube is to get it into the rifling. once the patch material and lead ball get compressed into the lands and grooves, it's a matter of pushing the patched ball home rather than smacking it home into the chamber. i used to use the rounded end of a patch knife to smack the patched ball past the muzzle, but it would go down only so far. to get patched ball's full diameter fully into the rifling i added a section of brass jag to the side of the patch knife handle. this allows two really good things to happen. i can place the knife handle jag over the ball and smack the other side of the knife handle to instantly get any manner of "tight ball" down into the rifling. how far down just depends on the length of the knife handle jag. for me, about a quarter inch is plenty, but i'm thinking of trying out a half inch, too. once the patched ball is well into the rifling (or squished into the smoothed bore), two hands on the ramrod about 3" or so off the muzzle affords enuf energy to get the ball well started down the tube. "bouncing the rod" further insures the patched ball is well seated on the powder charger, the powder is compacted (not so much compressed), and there is no airspace tween powder and ball.
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I've got an old 6 inch piece of .45 CVA barrel I removed years ago when I made the kids rifle, and have been testing different combinations of patch and ball loading into this barrel piece.. (Of course I use 99.9% of the time the Green Mnt Brls) - however for "rough testing" this little piece of barrel can narrow the field down a bit in ease of load combinations to look at;
.433 ball + .020 Ticking Patch will load easy / snug fit (and actually no "starter stick" is need)
.437 ball + .020 Ticking Patch will load with a / snug to tight fit feel (again no "starter stick" is really needed)
.440 ball + .020 Ticking Patch will load with a tight fit & (starter stick will work just fine for this)
.445 ball + .020 Ticking Patch will not load without a short starter being used... However, it's possible a .015 patch would probably make a difference
Granted, CVA Barrels have different dimension sizes then the Green Mnt Brl's,,, so the only way I can test the (Green Mnt Brls) w/ "short loading stick" - is at the Range when weather permits...
In reality, none of this amounts to a hill of beans one way or the other - whether or not a person used a short starter (back in the day) or not, or even if we use them today...
If it works for you - stick with it... I know I will, as the reality of it for me, is that there will always be a "short starter" in my shooting bag and it will be used, and now there will be just a stick to play around with and do some loading with... Who knows, by doing this I may confound the hell out'a someone - someday, of why I have or don't have this or that in my shooting bag... It's all good! :shake
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Seeing that guy in the video whap on the end of that stick with his bare palm made me wince, I'll tell you!
I didn't know about short starters when I first started this game. I figured out kind of quick that the pommel of my knife worked great for getting the patched ball started into the rifling and even with the muzzle, at which point I used said knife to cut the patch before running the ball down the barrel with the ramrod. It wasn't until probably 40 years later that I got the short starter, and I generally leave it at home anyway so it's back to butt of the knife handle and using the ramrod! :laffing
Kees
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It was either last year or the year before last, I tied a short dowel rod (about 4 inches long) to one of my ball blocks and started .445 balls with a .018 spit slobbered patch - just using the base of my palm on the dowel - and it worked fine...
Not so good with a .445 ball with a spit slobbered .020 patch...
And, I would not want to continue trying it with a heavier patch/ball combination...
Ball starters with a knob are a great invention IMHO - and there's no reason not to use one that I can think of... The tighter the patch/ball combination - the better the accuracy I have found.
However, "one" cure to not using a ball starter without coning the muzzle is to find an accurate patched ball combination that doesn't need a ball starter, and gives acceptable accuracy... For me; that's the .433 and .437 ball's with a .020 spit patch,,, but you do give up some accuracy going this route.
Coning the muzzle (or finding someone to do it) is the best IMHO... However, I don't know if the expense justifies the results in this day and age... I've never had a deer or a rabbit, nor a metal gong or paper target return fire at me... :Doh!
:shake
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However, "one" cure to not using a ball starter without coning the muzzle is to find an accurate patched ball combination that doesn't need a ball starter, and gives acceptable accuracy... For me; that's the .433 and .437 ball's with a .020 spit patch,,, but you do give up some accuracy going this route.
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i absolutely agree ... tight loads will almost always deliver far better consistent accuracy than looser loads.
what is "tight" and what is "loose"?
well, in order to seat the patched ball into the rifling and past the muzzle, a real tight load requires a hammer and real loose is a very easy thumb push. it's what's between those two that matter most and why most will employ a ball starter on a load that would never allow thumb starting.
i always give up some measure consistent "minute of soda can at 25yds" accuracy with a load that requires a knife handle smack to get past the muzzle and a kinda "hammering" push down to the chamber, and rod bouncing to seat. i dunno why i can't come to using a ball starter load so's i can get "minute of golf ball at 25yds", but maybe i will when i get older - and smarter. :applaud
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I'll admit, I do enjoy a good tight shooting Match, and the one thing I have always noticed in many of these traditional muzzle loading shooting matches where we may be shooting 50 & 100 yards,,, no matter who it is that may have posted a great score - they seem to be the first one rooting for the next feller to out score them and helping them to do it... They'll give you workable tips on how to do!
("there's a little wind down there - east to west coming in at about 10 o'clock, so watch out for that... Don't shade it too much - maybe just a tad high to the left")
It's things like this that make this sport/hobby fun IMHO. Everybody roots for all the shooters.
Least ways that's the way it was in the late 70's and into the 80's... And I've noticed it's still done today as well. Least ways the more "serious" Matches I've been involved in... And in return, I offer advise as well... Just something we do. :shake
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I shot these 8 shots (below) offhand yesterday morning from 25 yards - using my Rendezvous .45 cal Caplock Rifle (7/8 x 36" Green Mnt Brl...) No ball starter was used - patch and ball was thumb pressed in the muzzle then drove home with the ramrod...
My load was;
48 grains 2fg Goex
.020 Pillow Ticking w/ homemade lubed patch
.433 Hornady Ball
#11 RWS Cap
(3-X, 1-10, 3-9, 1-8) Group Size 2"x2" (Rough Measurement)
These results weren't bad, and I didn't expect them to really group like my standard load using .445 balls which would mark higher in the target from 25 yards... But for a loose load easy starting (no short starter needed) - this wasn't to bad at all.
(https://i.imgur.com/6B2FIWv.jpg?2)
Now the question; would I use this load very often?
Answer; Nope! - There's no need to (unless) I was on a timed gong ringing shooting course - then I would consider it, and it would depend on target distance... (I would also have to file down my front brass blade a bit to bring up the point of impact (which this .433 load is printing 1 to 2 inches low offhand from 25 yards / where as my .445 ball will print dead center to 1 inch high (depending where I hold & depending on the target)
This test was simply to see if the smaller ball load - being loaded without a short starter would produce reasonable accuracy if it were needed back in the "old days" where danger lurked around every tree, rock, and creek bed... So I'm satisfied with these results and will move on to my next testing - whatever that may be? :shake
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Seeing that guy in the video whap on the end of that stick with his bare palm made me wince, I'll tell you!
Kees
Yeah, I winced too. I'd grab a stick with a burl or knot or something to make that end bigger, flatter, i.e., less painful. Unless, of course, the bear was hot on my trail and the adrenalin was in plentiful supply.
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I dry patch my .40 cal air gun. if you use too much spit it starts running into the valve and ball and has to be cleaned, I wipe my gun with oil and lightly oil one patch for the inside of the barrell, never have needed a short starter as my ramrod is brass. I shot the L&C rifle but I like mine better, little heavier but feels better on my shoulder. the needle valve on this gun is a little different than mine, there is a flintlock on mine that actually works to open the valve. Mine will kill a deer at full charge at 83 yards. I can get 10-12 good shoots out of a full charge before I start to worry about effectiveness. Mine also has a sleeve for the barrel so u can shoot ..22 cal. pellets out of it and you can literally shoot all weekend on one charge if u use .22's. Every year at the Midwest Rendezvous we have an air gun shoot on Friday for fun and I always get a bunch of kids on my team. There are usually 2 of us that have these guns and we have had the maker attend 3 years so we have 3 teams going at it! My air reservoir takes 2,200 pumps to be fully charged, or the valve for a scuba tank fills it to full in like 3 seconds(don't think I will wear out my pump hehe)
nobber
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Nobber, do you have any fotos? Other information like maker, etc?
Thanks,
~Kees~
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Dennis Priddy up in Michigan is the maker. It is a copy of a gun that an apprentice at Mortimer and sons(gunmaker to the royal family of Great Britain) modified to assassinate The king a few years before the rev war. Dennis has made 8 or 9 I think, I have the seventh one made but it is numbered 8 because my birthday is 8/8. Friend of mine has number 7 that is actually the 8th made. I have a Pedersoli 54 cal flinter I have shot for years and it was the gun that the apprentice modified to make his assassins weapon but he was caught and hung before he could whack the king, I am in the process of moving but when I find my research and documentation I will try to put it here and see if the wife can get a pick of my gun on here for ya
nobber
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On pg.s 75 - 77 of The Mortimer Gunmakers - 1753-1923 by H. Lee Munson the airgun(s) that they built.
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I can't get the dam pics to drop in, the one u have pictured is a Mortimer copy of the L&C gun mine is a pedersoli Mortimer (the flintlock I shoot) and the airgun in a full stock version with an actual flintlock lock and a the air reservoir is a ball that screws right in front of the trigger guard, I will see if the wife can figure out how to download a pic.
nobber
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Nobber can you email me the picture? I'll post it for you. Send me a PM for my email address.