Traditional Muzzleloading Association

Traditional Firearms => Cap and Ball Revolvers => Topic started by: fistmil on February 16, 2009, 10:01:32 PM

Title: Chain-fire in CB revolver?
Post by: fistmil on February 16, 2009, 10:01:32 PM: Anyone ever experience one? For the first few years of CB revolver shooting I used to put Grease (Tompsom Center) over the ball in the cylinder. I never had a chain-fire . What I did have , especially on a hot summer day, was a greasy mess.

I have a London model 1851 Uberti. The original paper work that came with the revolver said to use a .380 ball. For the past 28 years or so I have loaded with a wonder wad and the tight fitting .380 ball, no grease, and have never had a problem. Is the grease really necessary. I don't recall any mention of this practice (grease over the ball) historically
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Post by: R.M. on February 16, 2009, 10:13:29 PM: If you use a lubed wad, I don't believe that grease is needed.
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Post by: FG1 on February 16, 2009, 11:58:33 PM: I think you are more apt to get a chain fire from loose fitting caps on nipples.
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Post by: Uncle Russ on February 17, 2009, 05:10:39 AM: Quote from: "FG1"
I think you are more apt to get a chain fire from loose fitting caps on nipples.

Yep, my thoughts exactly.

This grease, or "bore butter", or whatever, over the ball is a somewhat modern invention, with this need most likely being brought about by the many cylinder size variances now found among manufacturers......

The original C&B pistols didn't use anything like that, and the original written instructions for loading the originals never mentioned anything about OP wads, or grease over the ball.

A simple .002" / .003" oversize ball that is form fitted by shaving lead from the ball while being seated over the powder, along with a "correct" size nipple and cap being used, provides all the "seal" and protection from chain-fires needed for these guns.

I remember reading years ago about tests being conducted by the NMLRA to intentionally create chain-fire conditions, and if I remember correctly, the wrong size cap was most likely the cause of such chain-fires 99.9% of the time.

FWIW; There is a difference in size between #10 and #11 caps, with the #10 being smaller inside by about .000215 while having a greater inside angle, and they're designed specifically to be used on C&B revolvers.

Most folks use #11 because their rifles use #11's and that's what they have on hand, or they think, or feel the #11 is somehow hotter.
It is not "hotter" in any way, so don't do that....You're inviting nothing but problems by having a larger or loose fitting cap.

Uncle Russ...
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Post by: Sir William on February 17, 2009, 06:31:33 AM: I've had one some years ago. Its my first and only in some 30 years of shooting cap and ball revolvers. I had a the neighboring chamber go off.

My one experience seems to confirm the previous comments. After it occured I noticed that several caps had fallen off. Some of the nipples were of different diameters - so that the caps either fit snug or loose. After my chain-fire I replaced all the nipples with higher quality ones.

The grease isn't to prevent a chain-fire but to provide some lube and prevent fouling. I found it major mess, especially on warm days and don't use it in the cylinders anymore, though I still lube the cylinder pin.
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Post by: Fletcher on February 18, 2009, 09:18:22 PM: I just finished my NRA ML pistol course and did some extras reading on the revolver parts of the course. Having never shot one I wanted to learn more.

NRA and every source I read stated the importance of a tight fitting ball and greased cylinder to avoid jarring the balls loose or getting a chian fire. They did state that the grease should be of viscosity to account for temperature and weather. They reccommend a ball that is slightly larger than the cylindar so it will 'shave' slightly to fit tightly and a grease that is thick enough to seal but not too stiff if cold or too thin if hot. I guess that would mean you would need to keep several lube sources for your weather conditions.

Any revolver experts add to this?

Since most events I go to don't allow them (only single barrel) I have not paid much attention. Now that I have to teach it I need to be more educated.
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Post by: R.M. on February 18, 2009, 09:23:18 PM: If you put a lubed wad between the powder charge and ball, you don't need the grease over the ball. The wad protects you from the possibility of chain-fires started from the front, which is what the grease does.
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Post by: James Kelly on February 19, 2009, 08:29:10 PM: Chain fires can be fun.
I shot an original pepperbox some years ago with just wadding, to deal with a yellowjacket nest.
Neat thing it was not at all necessary to pull the trigger more than twice to get all 6 barrels off.
Don't believe it was fire around the muzzle that did it.
Title: Re: Chain-fire in CB revolver?
Post by: russ t frizzen on February 21, 2009, 08:32:57 PM: Quote from: "fistmil"
Anyone ever experience one? For the first few years of CB revolver shooting I used to put Grease (Tompsom Center) over the ball in the cylinder. I never had a chain-fire . What I did have , especially on a hot summer day, was a greasy mess.

I have a London model 1851 Uberti. The original paper work that came with the revolver said to use a .380 ball. For the past 28 years or so I have loaded with a wonder wad and the tight fitting .380 ball, no grease, and have never had a problem. Is the grease really necessary. I don't recall any mention of this practice (grease over the ball) historically

When I started shooting C&B revolvers, we used real ones as there weren't any repos around. The important thing then and now is to have a tight fitting ball that shaves a ring of lead evenly all around the ball as it is seated. The lube is there only to soften fouling and keep the action turning freely. It is important to get as much lube as possible on the arbor. The lube does nothing to prevent chain-fires and the whole wad under the ball seems to be a modern thing. Colt never mentioned wads in the factory loading instructions and I've never seen any period writings that mention wads.

The real culprit when it comes to chain-fires is loose caps/ incorrect nipple sizes. The caps must fit correctly so that they stay in place under recoil and fit well so that the heat from an adjoining cap can't get under it and light off the chamber prematurely. Sam Colt himself said that a properly loaded C&B revolver will not chain-fire and that has been my experience too.
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Post by: madcaster on February 27, 2009, 03:20:15 PM: I would rather take the precautions and avoid the chainfire thingy,as I am sure all of you would.
One thing I do is to use .380 balls,and a wad,and snug caps on the nipples.
Jeff
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Post by: James Kelly on March 22, 2009, 02:25:37 PM: So . . . would any of you gentlemen happen to know the relative sizes of various brands No. 10 caps?

Need to shoot a cap revolver as part of my RO training. Got out my 2nd generation squareback Navy, S/N something under 9000, put some #10 Remingtons on it (given me by a friend) & popped them. Seemed a little loose to me, so tried some #10 CCI which I just bought.
Twice a CCI cap fell off when the gun was cocked.
Hmmm. Sounds like ChainFireCity to me.

Dug out a Navy Arms brass framed revolver, #10 CCI seemed to fit OK, though none too tight. Guess I'll shoot the Reb tomorrow night.
Maybe with Remington caps.

I gotta drive an hour + to Kenockee Trading Post to buy caps or I would just get a tin of each brand I could find.

So, in #10 caps, how do you fellas rate the tightness of fit by brand?
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Post by: R.M. on March 22, 2009, 02:47:19 PM: 10's are the small ones. You can pinch them a bit to make them oval, and they'll stay better. Also, as you shoot, the nipples will crud up, which will hold them better too.
I've found that CCI's are smaller, or harder, so the pleats don't expand as easily.
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Post by: Gordon H.Kemp on March 22, 2009, 03:43:44 PM: I've fired several hundred rounds from the Ruger old army and several colt open frame repros. I would have to agree that most chain fires are caused at the rear of the cylinders. Worn nipples loose fitting caps and even accumalated unburnt powder bridgeing from one nipple to another. I always brush the loose powder from the rear of the cylinder each time I load. If the ball is of propper size it should shave a fine ring of lead off the ball. Some competivive shooterd chamfer the mouth of the chambers so there is no ring.
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Post by: Three Hawks on March 22, 2009, 05:13:21 PM: My bro in law has an original Rem. New Model Navy (.36) caliber revolver. He and I shoot it several times a year with .380 RB's. They shave a tidy little ring as they're rammed in and we've never experienced anything but amazement at the accuracy of the old girl. We use Remington caps as that's what I have. They go on snug and stay there.

From watching what the ball does when it arrives at various targets, I it seems about as powerful as .38 Special +P's. That is to say, no slouch.

We've been greasing the cylinder pin with moly anti-seize. The only thing about that is it's kind of difficult to clean off. Other'n that it's about perfect as bp revolver lube.

Three Hawks
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Post by: macNnc on March 28, 2009, 02:40:43 PM: only had it happen once to me...but that was plenty, i can tell you!
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Post by: flintlockmdj on April 09, 2009, 07:09:29 PM: Fletcher, I have used C&B revolvers for years and I don't think that you can get enough powder in the cylenders to make the ball losten from recoil, maybe in the Walker bot not in another style Colt or r Remington, and yes I know Walker is a Colt.
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Post by: bluelake on April 09, 2009, 07:38:24 PM: Question from a CB newb. I've had a New Model Navy repro (steel frame) for several years; I got it off eBay when they still let you buy/sell firearms--I wanted something close to the originals used in the historical research I was doing. My question is, when you have a chain fire, and multiple cylinders ignite, do the balls go flying out of those cylinders? What's generally the end result?

This summer, when I visit back to the States, I hope to use mine for the first time. I will take extra care to make sure the chances of a chain fire are minimized. However, unforeseen things do happen.
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Post by: James Kelly on April 09, 2009, 07:55:14 PM: Just got some new stainless nipples for my squareback Colt Colt Navy. Bought from trackofthewolf.com. They are meant to fit No. 11 caps. The neat thing is, I have a lot of RWS/old Navy Arms caps which are No.11, make a nice tight fit on the nipples.

Tight caps are most important to prevent chain fires. Old pepperboxes chain fire regularly from losse fitting caps.

I could not find a brand of No. 10 caps that would fit tight on the nipples of the gun as-produced.

Make sure your caps fit tight on the nipples.
Wear shooting glasses.
Make sure your caps fit tight on the nipples.
If you are really concerned, wear Depends(R) as well.
But do make sure your caps fit tight on the nipples.
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Post by: R.M. on April 09, 2009, 11:31:34 PM: Yes, when you have a chain-fire, multiple balls are discharged. If you think about it, the combustion isn't complete because in effect, the barrel length is only the cylinder length, thus, the ball doesn't have much power.
Still a scary thing to happen, but not as dangerous as some would indicate.
Title: Chain Fire
Post by: flintlockmdj on April 09, 2009, 11:47:57 PM: I have been shooting BP since '73 and just last week saw the first chain fire. Two cylinders in my sons '60 army went off at the same time.
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Post by: Mike 56 on April 14, 2009, 10:57:45 PM: I saw a cap and ball double once it was a friend of mine shooting. He loads powder and ball no grease and uses #11 caps and does not squeeze them. I have seen him shoot hundreds of times and he only chain fired once. I think a loose fitting cap that fell off. I load my 51 Colt and 58 Remington with 18gr Goex fff then fill the cylinder the rest of the way with grits and a .454 ball. I put a little Crisco over the ball not to prevent a chain fire but to keep the fouling soft. I like to use #10 Remington caps they fit my guns the best #10 CCI caps fit to tight for my guns. When i can't find #10 Remingtion caps i use #11 CCI caps and give them a good pinch.
Mike
Title: Re: Chain Fire
Post by: Stryker on April 15, 2009, 09:24:45 AM: Quote from: "flintlockmdj"
I have been shooting BP since '73 and just last week saw the first chain fire. Two cylinders in my sons '60 army went off at the same time.

I've been shooting 25 plus years and have yet to see/experience one. I believe there have been more Wampus cat sightings than chain fires
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Post by: James Kelly on April 15, 2009, 10:48:50 AM: There's a Wampus cat in my back yard right now, chasing that d---- red squirrel.
Title: Re: Chain Fire
Post by: flintlockmdj on April 15, 2009, 03:12:50 PM: Quote from: "Stryker"
Quote from: "flintlockmdj"
I have been shooting BP since '73 and just last week saw the first chain fire. Two cylinders in my sons '60 army went off at the same time.

I've been shooting 25 plus years and have yet to see/experience one. I believe there have been more Wampus cat sightings than chain fires

I dont know how many Wampus cats you have seen but I have definately seen one chain fire.
Title: Re: Chain Fire
Post by: Stryker on April 15, 2009, 05:24:32 PM: Quote from: "flintlockmdj"
Quote from: "Stryker"
Quote from: "flintlockmdj"
I have been shooting BP since '73 and just last week saw the first chain fire. Two cylinders in my sons '60 army went off at the same time.

I've been shooting 25 plus years and have yet to see/experience one. I believe there have been more Wampus cat sightings than chain fires :shock: And no, I don't drink and shoot. I'm a tee-totaler myself except for the occaisional glass of wine.
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Post by: quigleysharps4570 on May 24, 2009, 06:10:59 PM: Quote from: "FG1"
I think you are more apt to get a chain fire from loose fitting caps on nipples.

One would think it would happen everytime then.
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Post by: russ t frizzen on May 24, 2009, 07:19:59 PM: Not if you are using the correct size caps. If your caps are loose you are using the wrong caps--it's that simple. I've been firing these guns for half a century now and I haven't had a chain-fire yet.
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Post by: Mule Brain on May 25, 2009, 08:04:34 AM: I think using the right caps, and balls that cut a lead ring is the most important thing!

I usually start putting crisco over the chambers, but usually end up forgetting. I have never had chain fire, but think they are easily prevented.

Loose fitting caps, and loose balls could be a real problem!
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Post by: Stryker on October 29, 2009, 11:14:11 AM: Interesting article in this month's muzzleblast on chain fires by the Bevel Brothers.
Title: Re: Chain Fire
Post by: russ t frizzen on November 23, 2009, 09:45:39 PM: Quote
I dont know how many Wampus cats you have seen but I have definately seen one chain fire.

I've never seen a Wampus cat, and I'm curious as to how they might chain-fire. Or perhaps it's best not to know...
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Post by: Whitedog on January 04, 2010, 09:47:14 PM: Yep, it happens around the nipples. Back in 1973, I had an original 1851 Colt Navy that I loaned to a gal to have used in a play once. I loaded all six chambers with powder, wad and grease over them. I thought it'd be better to have all the chambers at the ready because I couldn't be sure if they'd index the loaded chamber correctly for the moment the hero needed to fire up into the air. However, the caps that I used were too big and so I "pinched" them so that they wouldn't fall off. In so doing, they opened up at the opposite sides, exposing the flash holes in the nipples to fire from adjoining nipples. Well, the moment came and I was standing off stage watching to see if everything went off correctly. The hero pointed the old original navy up into the air and pulled the trigger. It was a real good thing that the play was outside because there was a tremendous roar as all of the chambers ingnited in rapid succession like a volley from a firing squad. The audience was silent as the roar of the old pistol echoed across the valley and back again in the night. There were pieces of flaming toilet paper floating down from high in the sky, down...down...and one of them, still lit, landed on top of the hair of the hero. Well he must've had some type of hair spray on because his hair started to sizzle and smoke like Black Beards fuse lit beard. It was pretty funny as he went through his lines real quick in order to get the hell off of the stage to put his hair out.
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Post by: Gordon H.Kemp on January 22, 2010, 06:08:29 PM: Did I ever tell you about the guy that had a chain-fire with his single shot flintloock pistol??????----Sorry! I just couldn't resist.
My opinion is that a properly loaded CB revolver in good mechanical condition has less chance of a chain-fire than finding a wampus-cat or hens teeth.
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Post by: Whitedog on January 22, 2010, 10:00:10 PM: I agree! When the loading is correctly done, there aren't any problems. Both ends of the cylinder are sealed from rain and fire. Sam Colt gave a demonstration before a group of military brass once where he had dripped hot wax over the tightly fitting caps on each nipple. The bullets in the chambers, being properly oversized, were swagged in and were water tight. He submerged the revolver under water for some time and upon lifting it out of the water, allowed it to drain and then proceeded to discharge all six chambers one at a time. The brass was impressed to say the least and Sam Colt had his contract.