Traditional Muzzleloading Association
Craftsmanship => Accoutrements => Topic started by: KDubs on December 03, 2020, 05:13:59 PM
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Well decided my ol brass flask was in need of retirement so thought I'd start my first horn build with the spout from the ol girl and a horn from beaverman.
Its a rough start. Still needs a plug and some personality.
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I forget the exact size, but there is a hole saw you can use that will easily trim the horn to an exact fit with the valve base. Don't even need to put it into a power drill, just rotate it by hand.
It's been years and years since I have installed one of those valves on a horn, but I think you will need to do a little file work so the valve will not interfere with the horn. Might be wrong, but that is what I recall. Sort of.
As far as the baseplug goes, I think leaving the horn natural shape would be best and look more appropriate. I have always liked using walnut for that, probably a 4/4 board epoxied onto a pine inner plug. You can either use a round over router bit to shape it (1/2" works well) or just leave it flat. Either way works good.
Have fun with the build, guaranteed it will look better than the pathetic POS that was my first horn.
John (bigsmoke)
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I think you're gonna find that makin' powder horns is kind'a like eatin' Pringles, it's hard to stop after your first one. :bl th up :laffing
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Only ten minutes between posting the first photos and your second post; at that rate, you must be done and out using it by now! :luff:
That's looking good!
~Kees~
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Looking good! :bl th up
Making as much stuff as possible to support yer shooting is a most pleasurable and personalized way to go.
Ditto's what Rondo sez about horn making - bet ya can't make just one! I said that DOZENS of horns ago! :laffing
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This is my first attempts at scrim.
Horn compliments of robd.
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I'll have to look into the hole saw. That's a lot of work carving out the recess for the base.
Started at 9am looked up it was 230pm .
Got totally lost in what I was doing. Just farting around.
Definetly addicting .
Kevin
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This is my first attempts at scrim.
Horn compliments of robd.
Well just shoot me down, brother - that is flat out PRO scrim ART! :hairy :hairy
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Thanks Rob for the kind words.
I feel I can do better and I will.
I plan to try some relief carving designs .
Kevin
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I'll have to look into the hole saw. That's a lot of work carving out the recess for the base.
Started at 9am looked up it was 230pm .
Got totally lost in what I was doing. Just farting around.
Definetly addicting .
Kevin
Do you mean the horn's butt plug?
If so, I just create an inner plug that's cut and sanded to fit inside the butt, glue it in (epoxy or yellow glue), then glue a cap over the horn and plug, trim it all to shape.
(https://i.imgur.com/gChw9eX.jpg)
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Tapered reamer for the violin spout plug ...
(https://i.imgur.com/9IEPJsH.jpg)
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There are just a bunch of little tools that you can buy or make that will make you life as an addict much easier.
If you are going to do many horns (and why not) I would think that a hot air gun from Lowe's or Home Depot (for cheap) would be one of the first I would get.
The thing is to make it as easy as you can to have all the fun you can.
So, enjoy !!!
John (Bigsmoke)
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Lookin' pretty darn good! :hairy :applaud
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Yes sir, a right smart looking horn! :hairy
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Wow! That is some darn good looking scrim! :applaud
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again thank you for the kind words, very encouraging.
I have to pick up a few sizes of rasps and I will look for a hole saw for the spout, like that idea.
I have a heat gun and a hot plate /pot in case i go the oil route. i want to do some flat horns, I'll make a press for that. ( maybe just my vice)
Any other tools or gadgets that i might need to consider? I am thinking about some relief or chip type carving in the future, anyone here do that sorta stuff.
added bonus, the cut off tip from this horn just happens to hold 75gr of Ffg, exactly what my ol hawken likes.
kevin
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Perhaps some small gouges for engrailing.
(https://i.imgur.com/9hYuVDp.jpg)
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As of the last time I saw it, the Pass Around Box had a set of basic carving tools.
The last I heard, the box was headed north to Alaska, so if you were to sign up for it now, it could get to you on its way back to the Lower 48.
No guarantees that the tools are still in the box, but it is kind of fun to participate.
If you want to get in on it, message me your mailing information and I will pass the word to send it to you next.
Obligations on getting it? None. Just replace the number of items you take with the same quantity of items and send it on to the next person. Easy, peasy.
As far as tool acquisition goes, I bought a ton of stuff from CdA Power Tool on Hwy 95, just a few blocks north of Appleway. Second choice is Lowe's on Appleway, west of Hwy 95.
Enjoy !!!
John (Bigsmoke)
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Kevin, been away the last couple days, looking good, especially that hand cut and fit base plug, not an easy thing to do, in the pic that plug looks like it was turned on a lathe! well done my friend!
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Thanks again everyone.
Swung by wood crafters today. Couldn't pry my wallet open for a 45$ 1/8" gouge. Man..
Some of this work I've done with a dremel. Some with hand tools.
I'd like to know what some of you kind folks use as far as power tools ( If any) for horn building. Ie belt Sanders , dremel etc.
I find with power tools I need to be way more attentive.
Kevin
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I rarely use a dremel, if I do it's to sand out the inside diameter of the base of the horn, I use a table mounted belt sander for truing the base of the horn after I have cut it with a band saw, a Jet midi wood lathe for turning base plugs and applied tips and spout plugs, I use a #49 Nicholson rasp as it cuts the horn rather than tears it, a series of other files and needle files as needed, a spoke shave will make quick work of shaving off material on the throat, after filing I use stanley utility knife blades for scraping before sanding, I luckily have quite a collection of bench and carving chisels in various sizes and shapes for both gun and horn building, you may want to check out woodcarvers supply here, https://www.woodcarverssupply.com/ for chisels, i have a set of German made Lamp Brand which have never failed me along with an assortment Pfiel chisels, one thing that is a big help is a LED flashlight with a flexible wand head to look at the layers of horn from the inside out ( it will help in not filing through the throat) and 1&1/4 to 1&1/2 piece of dowel wrapped with some leather and chucked up in a bench vise then the horn is jammed on the leather will hold very well when filing and scraping, a sand bag or bean bag ( I use barley) the bag is full but not jammed tight 6" wide and 10 to 12" long will aid for a bed for the horn while sitting doing fine work and doing scrim, just some tips of the things I use, your mileage may vary!
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Well I seem to have a few chisels , files, scrapers and such on hand from building selfbows.
Thinking about a small belt sander, wanted one for awhile anyway .
I'm really enjoying this, might be something I'm really OK at. Ha.
Would it be recommended to epoxy the spout to the horn or better to just use the three tiny set screws.
Kevin
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Well, let's see, before I dismantled my shop, walking around it I had a floor mounted band saw, probably used a 1/4 x 94" blade on it the most; Then a floor mounted drill press with a 5/8" chuck; next thing was a 12" disc sander with a 60 grit disc on it; then turn the corner and there was a JET wood lathe, no idea what the model was, but it had electronic speed control and forward and reverse; then turn the corner again and there was my flapper sander, using a Wolfen head 16 brush model, I think I used 220 grit loadings; next was a bench with a heavy duty vise mounted in one corner and a 2" 48" belt sander and on the other side was a motor with a chain saw sharpener on one end of the shaft and a polishing wheel on the other. It was a 3450 RPM motor which was too fast, should have been 1750 RPM instead, but that's how it was. Turn the corner again and that was where my bench mounted router sat. I used mainly two different bits, one was a straight trim bit with a bearing on top, used for trimming the outer edge of the baseplug to the horn and the other bit was a 1/2" round over.
Originally, I used a Shopsmith for most of the operations, but decided later on that I would prefer to have individual tools to work with.
Please understand that is a lot of tools to make a powder horn, but I didn't just make one powder horn at a time, typically I made a dozen at a time. When I was in full production, I usually made about that many in a day. FWIW, I estimate I made about 35,000+ powder horns over a 30 year career.
Oh yeah, there was also a shop vac with a cyclone attached to manage the dust, hot air gun, misc files, a couple of different hammers, etc.
When I switched over to individual tools, I bought a lot of them from Harbor Freight. They were OK, although I would have preferred getting name brand ones, but they worked.
John (Bigsmoke)
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Well I seem to have a few chisels , files, scrapers and such on hand from building selfbows.
Thinking about a small belt sander, wanted one for awhile anyway .
I'm really enjoying this, might be something I'm really OK at. Ha.
Would it be recommended to epoxy the spout to the horn or better to just use the three tiny set screws.
Kevin
Kevin, if it was me I'd epoxy it with the screws, you want that horn air & flame tight!
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yes sir beaver, roger that on the water / flame tight sprout.
wow smoke that was quite the operation, don't think i'll be doing any mass production but my wife thinks i should make items for trade blankets at bow shoots and such.
not to derail the conversation but did you make horns for a living? how'd you get into that?
as much as i would like to do it by hand the OLD ways, my 56 yr old hands are almost unusable the next day after a few hours of hand tools on a horn.
I'm all set with a band saw, scrapers and such, but i will be getting a bench top sander.
Beaverman, you mention using a dremel to sand the inside of the base. is that the preferred method for fitting a plug. I tapered the plug to fit the horn instead, by hand , with a rasp. wonder why my hands hurt?
kevin
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There are lots of ways to make a most functional powder horn that at least looks decent, too. I prefer the easiest methods possible, with the least amount of fussing and tooling possible.
To me, it's all about the butt plug - what it should look like and how it should get accomplished.
Initially, I got Scott and Cathy's book and realized that heating/boiling/whatever to the horn was not something I wanted to mess with, and that it probably wasn't done all that regularly back in the day by the typical farmer, but might have been business-as-usual by members of the hornmakers guild. So I went my own way and "carved" plugs and butts and used resin glue or epoxy to make things stick. Along with a good sanding station and a bandsaw, to boot. I like doing it my way, and that's all that mattered to me. But scrimming, dang ... man I *tried* ... I need to learn me that fo' sho' !!!
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not to derail the conversation but did you make horns for a living? how'd you get into that?
I'm all set with a band saw, scrapers and such, but i will be getting a bench top sander.
Kevin, To answer your question, Yes, I did make them for a living. How did I get into that? Well, it was a hobby that went to seed. :Doh! Seriously, in 1983, I saw an ad in the classified section of Muzzleblasts that read, "FOR SALE Powder Horn and Shooting Bag business. Can locate anywhere." So, I called on that, went down to Colorado, liked what I saw, made an offer on it and on New Years Day, 1984, they pulled up in my driveway. Mort and Patty spent about a week, maybe a week and a half helping us set up a horn shop in the garage and a leather shop in the basement and then teaching us their techniques. They brought two Juki sewing machines, an anvil, a small box of tools, a roll of leather (6 halves) and a box of cow horns. That was it. By that time, I had bought a Shopsmith and I was ready to go.
In 1992, I bought Earl Cureton's horn business and then I really got busy making powder horns.
The name of the business was October Country, and to this day it is located on Government Way. In 2005, we sold it and moved down to LaLaLand to assist Ms. Smokes' mother who was having trouble health wise. When we got down here, I built a shop in the garage and started Powder Horns and More. I ran that for about 10 years and then sold it to a fellow who is running it from New York.
Enough of that. A thought on attaching your baseplug. First, you should have about a 5 degree bevel on you inner pine plug. When you set it into the base of the horn, it should be about 1/4" to 3/8" proud, much like your photograph shows. Some people talk about putting the horn in boiling water to soften, but the horn needs to be about 350 degrees to become soft and pliable enough to form. Never going to happen with water, because the boiling point of water is 212 degrees, Where is that other 138 degrees going to come from? It ain't. So, your other two choices are hot oil or a heat gun. I have tried the hot oil routine a time or two and didn't care for it, so the hot air gun it is. I stick the nozzle of the gun into the horn and keeping it moving all the time, just go around the inner circumference for one minute. Except for very thick walled horns, that should be adequate. Then put the gun down on the bench, set the inner plug into the horn and give it a couple of whacks with a hammer. For this, I used a hammer with plastic heads. Pound it in securely and there you go. Half way there. Here is where the disc sander comes to play. Sand any exposed horn off with it. Also, I used a little machinists square and on the bottom side of the horn I would check to see if the base was square to the horn. Functionally, it doesn't matter, but aesthetically it looks a lot better.
OK, school is out for the day. Have fun, take two aspirin and call if you are still suffering symptoms of horn dustitis.
John (Bigsmoke)
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Beaverman, you mention using a dremel to sand the inside of the base. is that the preferred method for fitting a plug. I tapered the plug to fit the horn instead, by hand , with a rasp. wonder why my hands hurt?
kevin
Kevin, not normally but sometimes if your going to turn a base plug on a lathe and you want a smooth transition from horn to plug you may have to remove material from the inside of the horn.
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thanks for the replies,
john I've been into October country, nice place. thanks for the pointers, I'll be putting them to good use.
rob love your work as always, great stuff.
kevin
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There's no flies on you, Kevin - so far, so good. :toast
For the plug, I trace the outline of the big end of the horn onto a 3/4" thick piece of wood and cut out the shape with a saber saw, just inside the tracing (to allow for the horn thickness).
Then I work down the diameter of the plug gradually with a sanding disc, then files, until it slides inside the horn at least 3/8" (+/-) - leaving the rest of the plug proud for the time being.
I epoxy & pin/peg the plug in place, before shaping the proud section with the sanding disc, then files, to a slight dome shape.
I you want a filler hole in the plug, either buy a ready-made brass plug from Track of the Wolf, or drill a hole in the center and ream it out for a tapered peg that had a knob left on the end for the powder horn strap.
A period correct rear strap holder is also easily made by bending a nail into a "U" shape, cutting off the ends evenly, then drilling two small blind holes to accept the "staple", which I also epoxy in place.
(https://i.imgur.com/tV7CYuBm.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/wcpL4Eqm.jpg)
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Hey kevin, how's the horns coming along? inquiring minds want to know!
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ah gee beav,
actually I'll be back at it today, had a few delays like putting a 40 sgft new tile countertop , sink/disposal and replacing my water pressure tank.. I've been busy.
I did pick an inexpensive disc/belt sander. got the base plug in.
hoping today to get her all finished up and then I'm planning on making (attempting) a flat horn with the other horn I got from you.
Hoping Christmas will be a good one, gave out my wish list for everything and anything Black powder.
I'l post up a pic later today when Its done.kevin
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Kevin,
Tell me about the disc/belt sander. Where did you get it? What size sanding belt does it use?
For the sanding disc, I think you will be happy with something anywhere between 60 grit to 90 grit. For the belt, 60 grit is good to work down the sides of the horn, 220 is a good in between general purpose belt and 400 is fine enough to give you pretty good finish results. I always give it a light
hand sanding with 400 or 600 grit paper and then finish it off with 0000 steel wool. CdA Power Tool used to carry a lot of different belts and discs. Probably still do.
Frankly, I always thought that to be one of the more important pieces of shop equipment one can have. Good on you, lad.
John (Bigsmoke)
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I bought one of these Performax® 4.3-Amp Corded 4"x36" Belt/Disc Sander about 20 years ago from Menard's (https://www.menards.com/main/home.html),.... and it's been a good one. :bl th up
Just type in "belt sander",.... current price is $110.00 :hairy
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I've been using 3 harbor freight combos for 15 + years and all have served me well, having an inexpensive bench top is fine, they work, don't scrimp on belt and disc quality, and that all depends what your sanding with it, I have one set up vertical with a blackhawk sharpening base and jig and 360 belt and that sets next to my lathe for a quick tune up on my turning chisels when needed, another is strictly for wood and horn and the third is for metals just makes life easier when your getting serious about building stuff!
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Just to get going I picked up a skil 6" disc 4x36 belt sander .
Really really cheap. I will eventually get a better one that's not all plastic.
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Here's the finished horn, for the most part . need some clean up.
Piece of Oak wine barrel stave for the butt. Left the horn natural shape rather than round it.
Black ink band with 4 brass staples.
Pretty basic but a good learning experience.
Kevin
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Good job, kev! :hairy
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Looks good! :hairy
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My brother in law shoots a modern inline M/L so I'm going to scrim his last name ( Raia) on this one and send it to him in an antler mount. try and convert him.
I ll finish it tomorrow and post a pic before i send it off.
Started a flat horn attempt this morning, went OK , not perfect but again I'm learning.
tried the hot air gun, I found it too hard to keep 2/3 of the horn hot enough for flattening. It will work great for rounding a horn tho..took forever too, went thru a J Giels, buckcherry and and Alice cooper CD. rock on!
Tomorrow Ill try a hot plate and crisco, in a pan of course.
kevin
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My brother in law shoots a modern inline M/L so I'm going to scrim his last name ( Raia) on this one and send it to him in an antler mount. try and convert him.
I ll finish it tomorrow and post a pic before i send it off.
Started a flat horn attempt this morning, went OK , not perfect but again I'm learning.
tried the hot air gun, I found it too hard to keep 2/3 of the horn hot enough for flattening. It will work great for rounding a horn tho..took forever too, went thru a J Giels, buckcherry and and Alice cooper CD. rock on!
Tomorrow Ill try a hot plate and crisco, in a pan of course.
kevin
Do yourself a big favor and get a candy thermometer and put it in the oil, no hotter than 300 to 315, submerge the horn , when you start seeing a bunch of tiny bubbles coming out of the horn pull it out, you may need to repeat the process a couple times until the horn is pliable, then start to flatten, don't try to flatten it all in 1 squeeze, may take a couple 3 times to get it to where you want it, good luck!
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Viola! I think I'm done, not sure.
My wife is off thrift store shopping for a fry daddy.
Just seems the best option.
Kevin
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That looks great! One guy from the Horners guild recomended to use suet right from the local butcher shop, claiming its animal by product and so is horn. Not sure if that hocus pocus or not but I did just that and its been working realy well. I dont know if it was mentioned yet but some oblong forms close to what you want the flat horn to end up as is pretty important imo. It keeps it from colapsing.
Hard to explain, ill try n get picture.
Your scrim is impresive, i tried a black bear one time but the guy said it looked like a hipo so i had to redraw it, luckily i had only penciled it on when i showed him🤓
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Kevin, if that doesn't make him want to drill a hole on the side of that in-line, I don't know what would! Well done, my friend!!! :bow
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:hairy :hairy :hairy WELL DONE KEVIN! :toast
even with a fry daddy I still use the candy therm to get the temp correct!
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This is the type of temp plug I i sert into the horn when flattening it. Adding and taking away wedges to match the aprox size of the horn.
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I made a set of wedges similar to these, what are the dimensions if i may ask. .
gonna get back on it again tomorrow .
kevin
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This is the type of temp plug I i sert into the horn when flattening it. Adding and taking away wedges to match the aprox size of the horn.
Thats basically how I do it also
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I made a set of wedges similar to these, what are the dimensions if i may ask. .
gonna get back on it again tomorrow .
kevin
The thickness is a little under 1/2". That little horn diameter is less than 2" .
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Lots learned in this thread!! Heating temps, double dipping, wedges. Wish I'd known these things a long time ago, my first attempt at a flat horn didn't turn out so well.
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None of my horn attempts turned out well. I was starting to get pretty proud of one I was shaving down. It was getting to a point where you could see through it. You could see clean through it and out the other side after I dropped it on the basement floor. :pray:
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None of my horn attempts turned out well. I was starting to get pretty proud of one I was shaving down. It was getting to a point where you could see through it. You could see clean through it and out the other side after I dropped it on the basement floor. :pray:
:lol sign
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Nothing short of .... Awesome!! :bl th up :bl th up
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Thank you everyone, I've been smiling since I finished it.
Ordered a 1/2 dozen horns for my Xmas gift to myself .
This might be a problem for me, very addicting..
Kevin
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My brother in law shoots a modern inline M/L so I'm going to scrim his last name ( Raia) on this one and send it to him in an antler mount. try and convert him.
I ll finish it tomorrow and post a pic before i send it off.
Started a flat horn attempt this morning, went OK , not perfect but again I'm learning.
tried the hot air gun, I found it too hard to keep 2/3 of the horn hot enough for flattening. It will work great for rounding a horn tho..took forever too, went thru a J Giels, buckcherry and and Alice cooper CD. rock on!
Tomorrow Ill try a hot plate and crisco, in a pan of course.
kevin
Great job, hes going to be able to get alot of use from that!
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:hairy :hairy :hairy WELL DONE KEVIN! :toast
even with a fry daddy I still use the candy therm to get the temp correct!
Ditto to that, both as well done and also to the thermometer. Ya gots to know where you are, else French Fried horn is not very usable.
Personally, and this is just my opinion, and what the hell do I know about all this, I would never use the hot oil technique again. Well, that's fair, because I do not see myself ever making another powder horn again. But if I did, I would certainly use a hot air gun.
Kevin, a couple of hints on flattening horns. Use the thinnest horn you can find. A heavy walled horn just takes too much effort to get hot enough to form. Especially for a newbie like yourself. Next, use a horn that is as narrow as you can find, else a wider horn will look like a sail. Not good. When you are mounting the horn in the vise, always put it between wooden plates to make sure you don't get the teeth marks from your vise pads onto the horn, although that might make an interesting pattern. I took the metal pads off my vise and replaced them with a couple of wooden ones I made, somewhat oversized. As far as heating the horn, first get it hot enough to do a primary flattening. Then mount it between your wooden pads and reheat it. Play the heat around the base, getting the air flow up and into the horn, then run it back and forth over the top and over the bottom. When the horn is pliable, give it a squeeze or two, then tap your form a time or two. And you might want a few side shims to keep the sides from bowing in.
John (Bigsmoke)
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:hairy :hairy :hairy WELL DONE KEVIN! :toast
even with a fry daddy I still use the candy therm to get the temp correct!
Ditto to that, both as well done and also to the thermometer. Ya gots to know where you are, else French Fried horn is not very usable.
Personally, and this is just my opinion, and what the hell do I know about all this, I would never use the hot oil technique again. Well, that's fair, because I do not see myself ever making another powder horn again. But if I did, I would certainly use a hot air gun.
Kevin, a couple of hints on flattening horns. Use the thinnest horn you can find. A heavy walled horn just takes too much effort to get hot enough to form. Especially for a newbie like yourself. Next, use a horn that is as narrow as you can find, else a wider horn will look like a sail. Not good. When you are mounting the horn in the vise, always put it between wooden plates to make sure you don't get the teeth marks from your vise pads onto the horn, although that might make an interesting pattern. I took the metal pads off my vise and replaced them with a couple of wooden ones I made, somewhat oversized. As far as heating the horn, first get it hot enough to do a primary flattening. Then mount it between your wooden pads and reheat it. Play the heat around the base, getting the air flow up and into the horn, then run it back and forth over the top and over the bottom. When the horn is pliable, give it a squeeze or two, then tap your form a time or two. And you might want a few side shims to keep the sides from bowing in.
John (Bigsmoke)
Hot air, tried a couple times, didnt like the outcome, I'll stick with the Skillman method, to each his own, use what works for you!
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well until i get a fry daddy it will be hot air for me.
turns out my hot plate doesn't work anymore. It was pretty old anyway.
i was able to flatten the end 2-3 inches of my current horn build which is thin but i think the mid section is too thick , the end looks like a kidney bean .
i used some wedges too but they weren't much help , probably too thin. also have the wood blocks in the vise. lessons learned. good stuff.
thinking i'll reheat it and go to round.
kevin