Traditional Muzzleloading Association

Traditional Firearms => Flintlock Long Guns => Topic started by: burch on February 15, 2009, 07:25:08 PM

Title: production trade guns
Post by: burch on February 15, 2009, 07:25:08 PM
I`m at a bit of confusuion. I wanted a Crockett Rifle but since i`ve been reading some of your adventures with your trade guns that`s starting to arouse my taste for something else.  I like the idea of a do all gun. So who makes some of the affordable 20`s and is that a good choice ?

             Burch  :)
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Post by: James Kelly on February 15, 2009, 08:24:50 PM
I rather like the assorted French & English trade guns and the Northwest gun made by caywoodguns.com   Got a French Type D in November, beautiful workmanship & lock sparks very well, unfortunately also got a little physical problem that has kept me from shooting it yet.
My admitted prejudice for Caywood is that I am fond of my digits. I prefer to wrap them around a gun with a barrel made of steel that the steel mill has specifically produced to make barrels, Gun Barrel Quality 1137Modified. Almost all other muzzleloading barrels, with the outstanding exception of Green Mountain, are of 12L14. This steel is specifically designed to machine very quickly, good for high production on an automatic screw machine. Makes common hardware screws & bolts.
12L14 makes nice short, crumbly chips when machined. I am a metallurgist & have done a number of barrel failure analyses for now digitally challenged (former) shooters. Me, I just don't like crumbly steel around an explosion.
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Post by: Kermit on February 15, 2009, 08:26:26 PM
http://www.northstarwest.com/ (http://www.northstarwest.com/)

Worth a look here too.
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Post by: tg on February 15, 2009, 08:44:01 PM
I would choose North Starr for a new smootbore, good quailty and fair price, most all smoothbores are now $1000 or there abouts, Caywood guns are quailty but short on historical authenticity if that is an issue, there have been some good deals on used guns on some of the forum trade blankets around cyber space.You won't find mush in the way of production smoothbores except some of the TC rifles with smoothbore barrels on them.
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Post by: Sir Michael on February 15, 2009, 09:00:32 PM
Check to on-line gun shops/shooting suppliers.  There are frequently trade guns of just about every description, British and French available that have been built by local makers.  

http://www.thegunworks.com/GunIndex.cfm

This company has both new and used trade guns and the inventory changes fairly quickly.  I got a "used" NW Trade Gun from them and I don't think the lock had ever had a rock in it.  It was very very gently used.  If you see one or more you like call them and they will answer any questions you may have about it.  They will also help you decide between several if more than one is to your liking.

Since there are both British and French Trade Guns out there, I'd suggest you do some research and decide which way you want to go before buying anything.  Also in the world of the French Guns there are several types and people can get pretty worked up over each one at the expense of the others.  British Trade Guns tend to be pretty much a basic design and it depends on how fancy you want it to be.

If you want to explore British Trade Guns I'd recommend you get a copy of S. James Gooding's "Trade Guns of the Hudson's Bay Company 1670-1970".
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Post by: Longhunter on February 15, 2009, 11:16:47 PM
Jackie Brown makes good smoothbores and they are reasonably priced.

http://www.jackiebrownmuzzleloaders.com/default.aspx (http://www.jackiebrownmuzzleloaders.com/default.aspx)
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Post by: woodman on February 16, 2009, 09:38:39 AM
For a reliable Tradegun, Ya can't beat the Northstarwest, for price and reliability.Plus Matt is great to work with you and get you exactly what you want.
  Woodman
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Post by: rollingb on February 16, 2009, 09:48:03 AM
Quote from: "woodman"
For a reliable Tradegun, Ya can't beat the Northstarwest, for price and reliability.Plus Matt is great to work with you and get you exactly what you want.
  Woodman

I agree with Woodman,... Matt is a pure pleasure to deal with, and his guns are "second to none" in quality.  :rt th
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Post by: woodman on February 16, 2009, 09:53:50 AM
The Northstarwest guns are traceble back to Curly Gomotski. One of the first people to make replicas.of the tradeguns.All of the molds that are used for parts we're taken from originals from the musuem of the Fur Trade's collection of Tradeguns.
 Woodman
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Post by: burch on February 16, 2009, 04:50:37 PM
Wow, that`s a lot. I`ll do some research on the info i`ve got here and get back at ya`ll.

                               Thanks a lot folks,
                                      Burch  :hairy
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Post by: James Kelly on February 16, 2009, 07:06:49 PM
Caywood has made some guns with English walnut, also with curly cherry. Look on their website under "Flintlocks Available", or some such title. Most of the guns are maple.
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Post by: chuckpa on February 16, 2009, 08:26:58 PM
I'll also agree with Woodman. Matt is great to deal with even if you need a small part, he  gets it right out to you. He also returns phone calls promptly.
I have two of his guns a Northwest and the English 1750 Trade Gun. I really like the 1750 English Trade Gun to shoot.
Whatever you get enjoy it.
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Post by: Craig Tx on February 16, 2009, 08:44:20 PM
I'll join the chorus on Northstar West.

I have an Early English tradegun and it's a beaut!

Matt was great to deal with and was very helpful along the way.

Craig
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Post by: burch on February 17, 2009, 08:30:25 AM
These babies aren`t cheap. Just how accurate are they using a ball. I can see getting decent accuracy with shot. If these are getting good groups at 75yrds i`ll have to sell off one of my other guns, but if we`re looking at 5" groups i`ll have to pass and stay with my original idea.
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Post by: Sir Michael on February 17, 2009, 12:07:21 PM
With the right load they can be almost as accurate as a rifle.  Note I said almost.  One thing about accuracy with a Trade Gun is that there is no rear sight and therefore you have to shoot it a lot to get consistent with sighting.  Some people (I won't name names) use a triangular file and file a small groove in the tang just before the start of the barrel to use as a rear sight.  But even then you have to learn how much of the front sight to look at to hit in the same spot or near it.
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Post by: burch on February 17, 2009, 12:32:20 PM
So, bottom line is: what kind of groups and at what distances are you getting with a ball. Oh, by the way the new issue of Backwoodsman Mag. has a good article on the Bug Out Gun. An interesting read on smoothbore trade guns. It even tells you how to make your own blackpowder if you can stomach the ingredients  :lol:  

        Burch
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Post by: Sir Michael on February 17, 2009, 12:36:29 PM
I shoot with a guy from time to time that regularly shoots out to 100 yds.  He regularly competes with the rifle gang using one of his Trade Guns.  BTW he only shoots smoothies.
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Post by: tg on February 17, 2009, 03:41:18 PM
For hunting purposes you should figure to stay in the 50 yd range, some will do better but most are opneing up a bit for huting at 75 yds I have one that will do about 3+ in at 50 yds off a rest 4-5 in. offhand, add a rear sight and my other one is 3in at 60 yds off a bench and not much bigger offhand....sometimes...eyes are getting fuzzy for rear sights.I would not consider them practical for 75 yds shots on a regular basis most will find them somewhere in the ballpark I mentioned others do better.
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Post by: burch on February 19, 2009, 11:34:14 AM
Does anyone make a double gun with one barrel smooth and the other barrel rifled  hopefully a flintlock ?
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Post by: woodman on February 19, 2009, 12:37:43 PM
I'm not aware of a production double with one rifled and one smooth. Some of the custom builders offer such.
  But for hunting you would need to check your local regs and make sure a double would be legal for muzzleloading seasons. Here in Colorado such a rig would be illeagal to hunt with.
 Woodman
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Post by: Mitch on February 19, 2009, 12:50:43 PM
if you shoot regular with a smoothbore(mine is  a 20g), you should be able to put all your shots on a paper plate at 75yds...practice a bit more and you'll be able to do that at 100yds...also this is from a rest or sitting position...you may be able to hit the plate fairly regular off-hand at 75yd, off-hand at 100yd maybe 3 of 5 shots....bottom line, shoot a lot, shoot regular, and shoot in all conditions/positions PRIOR to trying to hunt with a smoothie...
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Post by: burch on February 19, 2009, 06:29:41 PM
So what about having a smooth bore drop in barrel made for my GPR. Who does that sort of thing ?
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Post by: Captchee on February 19, 2009, 08:37:18 PM
well you work up a load and  a smoothy will shoot  real well .
 
 i showed a couple targets  last fall  on a type D that i just finished for a fella

 he printed those  his first time out  AND first time with a flintlock

http://www.traditionalmuzzleloadingassociation.org/forum/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=8959
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Post by: burch on February 19, 2009, 09:14:30 PM
Quote from: "Captchee"
well you work up a load and  a smoothy will shoot  real well .
 
 i showed a couple targets  last fall  on a type D that i just finished for a fella

 he printed those  his first time out  AND first time with a flintlock

http://www.traditionalmuzzleloadingassociation.org/forum/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=8959

 I saw that and was trully impressed with how accurate you can get with a smooth bore.
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Post by: tg on February 22, 2009, 08:04:17 PM
Smooth bores are fun and can be pretty accurate with practice and working up a good load, most who try them get hooked from what I have seen, I just don't see them as a logical choice if a lot of your shot oppertunities are in the 100 yds range, but no one says you have to shoot at every deer you see, if you get a .58 rifle and work up a load for one of those modern bullets some folks like so much and add a spendy peep to the outfit you are likley to see deer out of the range of that rig as well. This hapens with anything you hunt with, it is kind of funny at times when we want a gun that will shoot out to 100 yds because a smaller bore is best at 50yds or so.    
You are still going to see deer that are out of your range, I have come to the point that I just figure shooting out to 50yds, one gun will easily do better the other probably would also, but if i don't kill the first deer I see I can hunt some more the next day