Post by: mark davidson on February 17, 2009, 10:12:42 AM
Post by: R.M. on February 17, 2009, 10:17:09 AM
Just my thoughts.
Post by: Bigsmoke on February 17, 2009, 10:29:13 AM
Anyway, according to my 4th edition of the blue book of Modern Black Powder Arms (which is a few years old and has suffered irrepairable damage by my sister-in-law's flea infested mongrel cur chewing on it) the standard issue 1860 NIB is worth $600. The last MSR was $431.
They were made between 1978 and 1982 and 6,300 were produced.
I think they like .454 round ball and the Ox Yoke #4400 wads. Fffg no doubt works best, but Ffg also could be used, although it is a bit coarse for the purpose. You will probably find your most accurate charge to be in the neighborhood of 25 grains.
The 1860, 1861 and 1862 models Colt are no doubt my most favorite pistol designs. I really like the sleekness of them and the 1860 sure feels good in my hands. And who can ever say enough about Mr. Colt's famous, pattented disappearing rear sight.
Post by: mark davidson on February 17, 2009, 12:21:09 PM
Post by: jbullard1 on February 17, 2009, 02:36:01 PM
Forget about finding #10 caps in north Mississippi
I get several tins when I go to Bass Pro in Memphis
I shoot 454 balls and a Cabelas felt wad
Post by: Bigsmoke on February 17, 2009, 02:47:39 PM
Notice that I said "accurate" charge would be in the neighborhood of 25 grains. No doubt you can load nearly 40 - 45 grains, but...
As I mentioned, the Blue Book I have is a bit dated and the prices that things bring on an auction site are usually sqewed - the auction excitement getting involved and all.
Frankly, if I were going to use a BP revolver for hunting purposes, I would use a Ruger.
Post by: mark davidson on February 17, 2009, 03:20:39 PM
How bad does accuracy go downhill at around 30 grains of powder? Is the 23 grain load potent enough to punch a hole in a deer and git-r-done? Tell me why you lean toward the Ruger. I could get two Rugers for the cost of the Colt. I am a pretty big COLT fan actually in many things so I was drawn like a magnet to the Colt 1860. I love Ruger handguns too and have several but the c&b Ruger does not speak to me like the Colt even though I know the sights are better.
Jerry, You got a cap and ball gun too? What kind? Ever hunt with it?
By the way, Do I absolutely have to use the #10 caps or will the #11s work just fine??
Post by: R.M. on February 17, 2009, 03:39:31 PM
If it's horsepower you want, there are several better guns that can produce it. If you must have a revolver, go to a Walker, but I would suggest a single-shot like the Patriot or Trapper.
Post by: Bigsmoke on February 17, 2009, 04:01:48 PM
For the Colt, it is a more aesthetically pleasing piece of machinery.
If I was going strictly for hunting and PC didn't matter, I would use a Kahnke pistol. Single shot, up to .54 caliber, rugged action, will handle some serious powder charges, excellent sights, etc.
Post by: Voyageur on February 17, 2009, 04:41:49 PM
Post by: jbullard1 on February 17, 2009, 04:52:57 PM
Quote from: "mark davidson"
John,
...............................
Jerry, You got a cap and ball gun too? What kind? Ever hunt with it?
.............................
The only one I have is a Pietta 1851 brass frame that I can drive tacks with @ 25 yards :lol
Post by: Pitchy on February 17, 2009, 06:15:23 PM
Post by: jbullard1 on February 17, 2009, 06:38:26 PM
Quote from: "Pitchy"
Also make sure it`s legal to shoot deer with a BP revolver in your state, it isn`t in my state front loaders only. If it is legal and ya want power buy a Walker replica that has some appreciative power.
Thanks Pitchy for the heads up :shake
Post by: Uncle Russ on February 17, 2009, 08:10:13 PM
Like others here have said, it's darn hard not to like the feel, handiness, and balance, of the 1860 Colt.
But, when it comes to out & out killin, that big, ugly, heavy, Walker just can't be overlooked.....Ya gotta love 'em!
BTW, Mark....Our own Hawkeye, here on the forum, now owns a 1861 Colt .54cal "Special Musket", 3 Band Rifle, in the Signature series, and let me tell you, it is one really nice rifle.
Uncle Russ...
Post by: mark davidson on February 18, 2009, 09:45:51 AM
Horsepower: I am sure I will be content with 25 to 30 grain charges for my intended purposes.
Jerry, I actually talked to the state game and fish department in Jackson, MS yesterday about legality of hunting with the c&b gun. Here is the skinny: It is "technically" NOT legal to deer hunt during primitive weapon season with a pistol of any kind. The description of legal weapons does not mention pistol and the interpretation is that a legal primitive weapon must be fired from the shoulder. The fellow I talked to told me that he would certainly not cite or ticket someone for having a c&b revolver along with his long gun and he added that he could not imagine any officer writing a ticket for it. He also added that he would bring the issue up and perhaps get the law changed or written to include black powder sidearms. It would of course be legal to carry the c&b sidearm during regular rifle season, just not technically legal in primitive weapon season.
Russ, I think I am going to keep the Colt just cause it speaks to me. I may pick up a Ruger down the road if I take a notion to use a bp pistol for a primary tool in handgun hunting. However, with a little patience and strategy I believe I can smack a deer sooner or later with the Colt. Likely it will just be used for backup and finishing off if need be anyway.
I am a little worried about the sights (or lack thereof) on the Colt. I am still pretty performance oriented and I suspect that hitting really well with that notched hammer for a rear sight is going to be a challenge. Any thoughts???
Post by: jbullard1 on February 18, 2009, 10:05:53 AM
I know none of the officers around here will ticket you for a C&B revolver on private land, Just do not take it on a WMA or National forest.
Would be nice if they amend the regs to include handguns to go along with the 45/70's during primitive season
Post by: mark davidson on February 18, 2009, 11:22:16 AM
I made that very point to the guy in Jackson yesterday. I told him that I might want to go to a WMA every now and then and that some of those guys are very narrow minded. He agreed that it would be good to take a look at getting the law amended to include bp pistols. It may never happen but it is a good idea. I think a good argument could be made in court that a true BP handgun is well within the "spirit" of the law if not the "letter" of the law. Also, MS law allows weapons of design prior to 1900 which includes the darned centerfire stuff. Certainly my Colt predates our new dated law by half a century. I would hope that either an officer or a judge would recognize that. It is strange to add that the game and fish guy said that my question had NEVER come up before EVER! I guess that just shows how few of "us" there really are! :-)
Post by: Bigsmoke on February 18, 2009, 11:41:32 AM
The only practical way of alleviating the Col. Colt's famous, pattented disappearing rear sight is to cut a dove tail in the top of the barrel, just ahead of the forcing cone, and install a rear sight there.
Drawbacks are it could possibly hang up on a holster when drawing it, you just deastically reduced the value of the pistol and it does look a bit funky.
I did that once with a Walker and it worked out OK.
To your questions, the little screw's purpose is to hold the wedge in case it works loose. I never took it out when disassembling a pistol, just let the wedge flop there. And yes, popping the wedge with a piece of wood is a good way to knock it out. That doesn't mar the finish the way a screwdriver will. A piece of brass rod works pretty good also. When you reassemble the pistol you will need to be cautious as well. If you drive the wedge in too tight, it can lock the cylinder up so it won't turn. If you drive the wedge in almost too tight, carbon could build between the forcing cone and the cylinder face and lock it up. If you don't drive the wedge in tight enough, it could possibly work free and the barrel could come loose.
When you have the barrel off and the cylinder off, it is a good idea to wipe down the arbor and grease it well. Keeps things spinning the way they should.
Finding #10 caps was always a problem. Mainly because I just do not like CCI's. So, I usually used RWS #1075 Red Label caps and just squeezed the sides into a little oval shape and they stuck on just fine. My personal favorite was the RWS Green Label #1055 which had a slightly longer skirt and it gripped better. Sadly, they quit making them long ago. Remington #10's are the next best thing, in my opinion. They get a bad rap from a lot of poeple, but I have never had a problem with them, unlike CCI's. And some people like Fords while others prefer Chevies. And so the story goes.
Post by: Pitchy on February 18, 2009, 12:10:50 PM
20-30 grains in a 1860 is way under powered imo for deer and only asking for the possability of losing a animal wounded.
Other than maybe a follow up head shot at very close range.
Post by: mark davidson on February 18, 2009, 12:49:28 PM
John, Thanks again for some good information. I had actually already thought about the dovetail rear sight option. Just shooting the pistol I have will drop its value by close to half. I am sure the sight would devalue it further but I could care less about its final value. It is worthless and worse than worthless if I cannot use it and hit what I shoot at with it reliably. I either gotta sell it before I shoot it or bite the bullet and take the value loss and plan to keep it forever.
I do have one question before I shoot this thing. Would a single shot more traditional style MLing pistol in a big caliber like .62 not generate a LOT more energy and killing power? I suppose the tradeoff is six shots versus one sho nuff thump. I may end up selling the 1860 Army new in the box and purchase a big bore single shot. Whatchall think????
Post by: R.M. on February 18, 2009, 12:58:42 PM
Post by: Pitchy on February 18, 2009, 01:05:48 PM
Quote
Pitchy, Loading down the barrel is not an issue here in MS. Remember our illustrious G&F dept. allows breech loading centerfire metalic cartriges like the .45-70 during our "primitive" weapons season. The real issue here is that our legal description of allowable weapons in primitive weapons season uses language that defines shoulder fired weapons only and does not address the handgun issue at all. I know 30 grains in a handgun is pretty weak for deer but would make a handy finishing touch/fast follow up if needed. I figure at close range(archery range) a well placed ball through the lungs should do the trick.
Understand about the laws.
If it were me i`d sell the Colt if I didn`t care about its collector value and buy a replica Walker and have money left over for some supplies. A Walker with a max load of 60 grains if I remember right equals a 44 mag in power.
Or like others said a single shot muzzle loader in 50 or 54 would work nicely.
Myself i`ve owned two Walkers and wish i still had one, heck like Gus you colud alway bust the deer over the head with it.
Post by: jbullard1 on February 18, 2009, 01:16:25 PM
and also a 62 cal smooth bore flintlock hand cannon with a 12" barrel
Post by: mark davidson on February 18, 2009, 01:34:34 PM
Post by: Bigsmoke on February 18, 2009, 02:00:35 PM
Under license from Colt Mfg, Colt Black Powder Arms (a separate company) assembled Uberti parts in NYC and called them Colts.
Are they Colts? Well, yeah, sort of.
Are they Uberti's? Yeah, well sort of.
I guess there is enough US labor in them to qualify for Made in USA, but the parts started out in Italy.
But they still say Colt and not Uberti.
Post by: Mitch on February 18, 2009, 02:13:45 PM
Post by: jbullard1 on February 18, 2009, 02:26:22 PM
Quote from: "Mitch"
get a big bore flint pistol-or at least in the same caliber as your longarm...I have 20g fowler and 20g pistol-in my opinion, it makes good sense, and it's just cool!!
:shock:
So with my BraveHeart being a flintlock 12 gauge I need a 12 gauge flint pistol
Man that is awesome
Post by: mark davidson on February 18, 2009, 02:49:22 PM
Post by: Mitch on February 18, 2009, 02:50:07 PM
Post by: Bigsmoke on February 18, 2009, 03:40:58 PM
Mitch, I bet the 20 ga is just sweet with 35 gr Fffg in it. I bet there is no noticable recoil, either. You ever turn up the volume on it or just run sweet loads through it?
A .72 or 12 ga pistol? That gives me goose bumps just thinking about it. That would make quite the Howdah Pistol, would it not? I guess Pedersoli is making one in 20 ga. That'd be a start. Or pick up an old 12 ga S x S and cut a lot of barrel off and reshape the stock.
Post by: Mitch on February 18, 2009, 03:51:39 PM
Quote from: "bigsmoke"
Mitch, I bet the 20 ga is just sweet with 35 gr Fffg in it. I bet there is no noticable recoil, either. You ever turn up the volume on it or just run sweet loads through it?
bigsmoke-on advice of the builder, 35gr 3f is as far as I've taken it...there is a picture of it here somewhere, it's brass/bronze for the barrel(steel breechplug)...when I called the builder after shooting it and told him my load, his words "that's definitely pushing it"...and 35gr is just short of a half measure for my fowler, makes it easy!!
Post by: mark davidson on February 19, 2009, 10:31:09 AM
Post by: James Kelly on March 01, 2009, 06:28:42 PM
I suppose that you will say use a capper.
So next question, is there a modern brand that will actually work?
I envision a capper full of caps detonating in my hand.
My own inclination, however I put the caps on, to avoid those brands (if still made) that have some detonating compound smeared on the inside of the copper cap, as well as under the foil.
R. Van Winkle