Traditional Muzzleloading Association
Traditional Firearms => Caplock Long Guns => Topic started by: LawrenceN on December 15, 2017, 07:46:49 PM
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This is uncharted territory for me. I attended an auction, and this beauty was on the block. From what I've been able to ascertain thus far, it was made by Alonzo Selden at his shop in Whitehall, NY. As near as I can tell, it's in .40 cal. and in wonderful condition. This was my first time actually handling a rifle with the long sight tube and it was somewhat surprising to discover it had no magnification, just a bead-on-post reticle. Having restored old military and commercial firearms in the past, I know enough to just give this rifle a good cleaning and not polish the brass work or alter the patina. The bore is beautiful with the rifling still very pronounced and no discernible pitting or fouling. Mind you, one would expect a serious shooter to take good care of such a lovely beast. My question for you gentlemen is what would a piece like this be worth? I assume a dedicated shooter would wish to put some rounds down range with it. Also, there is not a lot of information of A.Selden on google, so any info on the man and his rifles would be most appreciated. Are target rifles in this sort of shape a rare thing? Is there a small niche market for them or is appreciation and use more wide spread than I know. Sadly, there were no accessories with it like a worm, nipple wrench, etc. For now, enjoy the pics.
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That is a wonderful looking rifle!
I have yet to see any back-action lock that I didn't like, this is one very special rifle, in my eyes.
Thanks for sharing that with us, along with a hearty Welcome to the TMA.
Looking forward to more posts, and more pictures.
Insofar as value.....like many other very things of serious value, the value of this piece would be in the eyes of the beholder. Also, the name of that builder may add to the value of the gun.
As for the rarity of the piece, although unique in many respects, I would personally say such rifles are far from being rare as many such "race-guns" are built, and being used today.
It's the cost that prevents them from being "common."
However, I have personally been witness to 30 plus guns, much like this one, being on the firing line at one time.
Seen by the right person, at the right time, many of us, myself included, may find the dollar "value" of this piece simply astounding.
You didn't mention the "False Muzzle" such fine guns are normally always accompanied by a False Muzzle. Perhaps that was an oversight on your part and it's actually there.
That one little piece can make a huge difference in the price of any Bench Gun, as it is cut from the same barrel you see here.
Once again, glad to have you with us.
Russ...
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Russ, thank you for your welcome and your kind words. I've come across the Selden name on several gun boards. I know he was born in Quebec, Canada in 1842 and he died in Whitehall, NY in 1881. After he emigrated to the U.S., his first gunsmith operation was in Bridgeport, CT. He later moved and set up in Whitehall NY. I'm told by an much more knowledgeable front stuffer that he made a very good quality product and is sought after by a niche group of black powder enthusiasts. Sadly, as I'd mentioned, there are no accessories like the false muzzle, worm, etc., just the rifle. I was told it could command as much as 5 grand and up to 7 if it had all it's bits. As I'd mentioned, this is a whole new realm for me and though I'm reluctant to question his assessment, I thought, "Really???".
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I am of the opinion that 'your friend' gave you some sage advise.
Seems your own research pretty much mirrored that of my own, especially the Whitehall, NY part.
From my own very limited search, he was very popular while in Whitehall, and I did see some mighty fine sidelock smoothbore credited to his name....enough so, that I'm satisfied that his name alone is going to increase the value of that gun, despite its shortcomeings, if such can be said.
Russ...
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I've noticed on other gunboards that black powder afficionados often mention the barrel width on octagonal barrels so I thought I'd take a measurement for those curious folk who want more detail. The barrel is 1-3/16" across and 1/2" across the flats, but when I was doing the measurements, I noticed the number "80" stamped on the face just above the ramrod. Any thoughts?
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Welcome to the forum, LawrenceN. That's a serious looking rifle, IMHO.
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That is a beautiful piece!
The term "across the flats" refers to the distance across the barrel from one flat (i.e. the left side) across to the other side (right side for this example). I assume that the 1/2" is the actual width of one flat?
Could the number "80" be a serial number? Perhaps the last two digits of a serial number, stamped on all the parts like my old 1895 Mauser had? Just a thought.
~WH~
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Very nice rifle from what I'm seeing of it. Please take and post some pictures of both sides of the rifle, the muzzle, top, bottom, rear, and remove the lock an please take a picture of that area as well. Thank you, look forward to seeing more pictures. :shake
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I see this rifle has been shown at this link;
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/305686/
If I read this correctly, David Minshall is in question of the actual maker (Edward Alonzo Selden) and (A. Selden), so the actual history is still in question by, Mr. David Minshall?
It's an interesting piece that I hope gets researched further for historical interest and value.
Thanks for sharing it with us. :shake
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Very nice rifle from what I'm seeing of it. Please take and post some pictures of both sides of the rifle, the muzzle, top, bottom, rear, and remove the lock an please take a picture of that area as well. Thank you, look forward to seeing more pictures. :shake
I think the rifle is lovely, but alas, out of my field of interest or expertise. Pictures I can take no problem, but without more "hands-on" experience, I'm reluctant to start disassembling anything. Give me a Lee Enfield? No problem? Most commercial rifles? The same, but when it comes to fine antique rifles, I'd prefer to be in the company of somebody with more experience. I would think that those custom gun smiths made "one-of's", but again, someone with more experience can set me straight on that. I figure, given that he's in Whitehall when this was made, that it would be circa mid 1870's? As the barrel stamp just reads "A. Selden - Whitehall", perhaps it's just Alonzo Selden.
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Here is a youtube video of an "A Selden" Rifle in action, for those that would like to view it. When I get a chance, I will check Ned Roberts book on muzzle loading caplock rifles... There may be some info in it about the Selden muzzle loader, you never know?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRrp7pdQGu8&t=1s
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I'd seen this before when I was researching "A.Selden". It's great to see those old guns in action. The one I have is considerably heavier and I assume to be a competition rifle rather than a hunting arm.
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For Ohio Joe, as requested, here's the pics. You will note the stress crack on the left side of the action by the screw. I assume the screw may have been over-tightened and stressed the stock. It's purely cosmetic and should not affect function, but that's the only flaw visible to my untrained eye. On an interesting note, the back of the ramrod has a jag! I don't know if this was common, but I thought it to be a neat touch. For now, here are the pics you'd requested. Any comments or observations would be more than welcome.
(https://s19.postimg.org/f0fctg2yn/DSCN1217.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/f0fctg2yn/)
(https://s19.postimg.org/shcbcc0fj/DSCN1222.jpg)[/url]
(https://s19.postimg.org/o87la0zpb/DSCN1204.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/o87la0zpb/)
(https://s19.postimg.org/534c0eq7z/DSCN1225.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/534c0eq7z/)
(https://s19.postimg.org/n5xermtsf/DSCN1226.jpg[/img[url=https://postimg.org/image/nvg74021r/][img]https://s19.postimg.org/nvg74021r/DSCN1227.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/n5xermtsf/)
][/url](https://s19.postimg.org/l1d1qk7lb/DSCN1228.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/l1d1qk7lb/)
(https://s19.postimg.org/4qcxu92tb/DSCN1232.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/4qcxu92tb/)
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At first I thought that was an awfully coarse thread for the sight adjustment, but then realized that the pivot point would be near the front of the barrel. I guess being that far away makes it a fine adjuster after all.
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Hello LawrenceN, thanks for the pictures, you took some good ones...
Here's what I'm seeing, and mind you, I'm no expert...
To my eye the barrel appears to have been shortened at the muzzle at some time as I believe I'm seeing cutting scars on the muzzle. This may have been done for several reasons (all conjecture) of course;
1. It may have started life out as a Target rifle with a False Muzzle and someone may have wanted to turn it into a hunting rifle, so they shortened the barrel? (If so, what a shame).
2. It may have very well have had a longer barrel and someone may have tried to add a False Muzzle and it didn't align it correctly (if it was an after thought) - or - it may have been drilled for a False Muzzle and perhaps a bit broke - or - the holes on the muzzle flats were not drilled straight not allowing a False muzzle to be used so perhaps the idea was given up on adding / making a False Muzzle and the muzzle was cut down to simply offer it as a lighter target / hunting rifle?
I expect only the maker can tell us what the 80 stands for on the muzzle, or is it 08, depending on which direction it is to be viewed from?
Regardless if any of the above conjectures hold true, it is still one heck of a piece of history that I will say again it would be great to know this rifle's history.
I expect Recoil could be one reason for the stock fracture, or the rifle could have been dropped and just hit wrong on the butt end of the stock which may have caused it? That's an awful heavy barrel on that rifle.
Again, I hope we can find more out about this rifle and its history. A remarkable find that just needs a paper trail. Where a person would start, I have no real idea, but I thank you for letting us have a look at this piece of history. :shake
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Thank you for your input. The problem with these old rifles is that without actually being there, all one can do is educated speculation. I would tend to disagree with the shortened muzzle opinion though. Under a strong light and a good magnifier, there are no tooling marks as such (and trust me, I know tool marks!) but some dents and scratches that I think one would expect from a rifle that's 130+ years old. Also, docking the muzzle would have necessitated the relocation of the foresight dovetail and shortening the ramrod. The crack in the wood is definitely a stress crack. I would be of the opinion that the screw was too snug and stressed the grain and then, as you'd mentioned, recoil would be sufficient to add enough force to make the wood fracture. Fortunately, for a purist, that would be an easy fix or it could be left as is. Call it part of the rifle's history.
It came from the estate of an elderly gentleman who just collected "stuff" from treasures to junk. That's as much as the auction house would tell me, so I can't trace the history back and I wouldn't have a clue as to where to start looking. What are the odds that Selden kept records of his rifles and someone has them still? Pretty slim, I'd bet, or someone would have chimed in.
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I am curious though, not knowing how those old time gunsmiths operated, and hoping someone can steer me right. I'm assuming those old gunsmiths would build arms of desired types on "spec" so they'd have stock for the "off-the-shelf" buyer, tweak them to suit if asked, and then do custom and "one-of's" for the wealthier clients who wished to have fitted firearm made to suit them.
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LawrenceN....Don't read more into this than actually exists.
"Old Time Gunsmiths" did do excellent work, as so many surviving specimens from that era can attest to.
However, most gunsmiths, even back then, did not make all of their own parts as many were readily available on the market.
Barrels blanks, or barrel scalps of bar iron for forging gun barrels, were available as early as the 1830's.
Many early Gunsmiths rifled their own barrels from a "blank scalp", or barrel blank, with a pitch that they felt was just right for the projectile which the gun was designed to fire, be it round ball or conical, and a select few even cut their own barrels in whole from these "scalps", but for the most part the barrel was ordered then rifled.
Most of them did 'refine" many of the parts that they had bought on the market, some by simply polishing the workings of the lock and trigger, and then adding their own engraving to both the locks, and the side plates.
Most of them did do, or would do, the stocks to a buyers specifications to include length of pull, cast-on, or cast-off, and height of stock comb to the sights of the barrel.
As far as them having "off-the-shelf" replacement parts for potential buyers, I am not sure that existed. Certainly not as we know "off the shelf" today.
The replacement of parts, "custom" fitted to a particular rifle, or repair in general, has always been the real "Bread & Butter" of most Gunsmith's income, because that is where his skills truly shined.
Custom rifles, such as the one you're the proud owner of, would have cost more than the average workers annual wage, likely even twice the annual wage, back in the year that gun was made....consequently, there were not very many made, and those owning such rifles took the best of care to insure, not only their accuracy, but their longevity.
Think of it like this....if a Hawken, from the Hawken Shop in St. Louis, MO cost the average hunter of the fur trade era the equivalent of a years wages, one can only imaging what a rifle, such as yours, would have cost 'back in the day'....and even back then, Sam Hawken did order a lot the "parts" that after fitting made the Hawken the gun it was recognized as being during that time frame.
There is a familiar saying that goes like this: "A lock is a lock and a trigger is a trigger" no matter what modification is made to change, or perfect them in some way....their function remains the same.
Adding to that the old saying of "Lock, Stock, and Barrel", it is very easy to see we're missing one key ingredient, and that's the trigger.
Hope this helps you a bit.
Sorry I got long winded, but some subjects just need a little more 'talkin' than others.
Russ...
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OK guys (and thank you for your input), but I think I've got it nailed down. It was made by Alonzo Selden c:1860's as a high-end, custom order. It never had a false muzzle as it was probably made for picket matches. I'm going to do a magnet test on the some of the screws since they seem to be platinum like the breech plug screw. Whoever had this made was obviously well off and serious about shooting. What I still have to determine is the rate of twist and that may help narrow down probables even further. If only this old thing could talk!
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OK, more information. I may have discovered the meaning of the "80" on the muzzle above the ramrod. I'm told it means 80 balls to the pound, which makes it .39 caliber. I confirmed that with my micrometer, so my assumption that it was .40 was incorrect. I thought I'd measured it wrong, never having heard of .39 cal. [ Invalid Attachment ] [ Invalid Attachment ]