Post by: BGRooster1 on August 24, 2011, 10:40:52 AM
I ask on account of watching auctions and seeing rifles called one thing on one auction and what appears to be the similar rifle called something else on another. It is sometimes just the hardware used that appears different.
Is there anyone who would have this info?I'm just curious and wondering what ones may be less common .
Post by: Swamp on August 24, 2011, 01:09:10 PM
I can try to help you out! Let me know!
Post by: Gordon H.Kemp on August 24, 2011, 02:09:43 PM
I do know there was very little difference other then cosmetic , between many of there "models". I think the most notable weapons for value were those made in the early years of the origanal Co. The "Mountain Rifle" seems to be the most coveted of those ever produced. Also at a little later date were the small caliber guns like the "squirll Rifle and frontier" They sold quite a varity of weapons over the years including O/U and S/S rifles.
They alao marketed quite a varity of shotguns both single s an S/Ss . They also had a large assortment o handguns both single shot and revolvers and some odditys like derringers and such. If there is a catalog that spans the life of the Co. I would certainly like to have one .
:rt th
Post by: Swamp on August 24, 2011, 03:09:21 PM
Post by: Gordon H.Kemp on August 24, 2011, 07:18:38 PM
Post by: BGRooster1 on August 25, 2011, 09:44:36 AM
I'm going to be looking for that catalog at the gunshows and see if I can't get me one for a dollar.
Thanks for the help
Post by: Captchee on August 25, 2011, 11:53:52 AM
In CVA’s early years they were a retailer . Not a manufacture .
Early CVA were made here in the US . Most notably their double pinned mountain rifles . The barrels on those rifles were made by a couple notable companies and still sought after today .
They were also marketed in 45-58 cal and carried a lot nicer hardware.
The other rifle that CVA marketed that is rare is the Kentucky one piece full stock .
This was a very limited run in the early 1970’s and came in 45 and 36 cal .
I suspect the reason it was dropped so quickly was do to Jukar , Markwell and Ulta high changing to the 2 piece stock to cut costs .
Yes that’s right , all these rifle were originally full stock one piece rifles.
When CVA went to the 2 piece stock , they also did this in 2 ways .
First was a wide 2 inch brass band . Then came the joiner plate that is most commonly seen today and is still used by traditions on their 2 piece models .
Now flash forwards into the 1980’s after CVA hired jukar to make their rifles .
This is where things get kinda confusing .
Cva came out with a smaller line of rifles.
Most totally the deer hunter , squirrel rifles and such .
But they were having legal problems .
Thus enter Traditions. Much of the traditions line was originally CVA products . The only one that I know of that traditions did not use was the early CVA mountain rifles.
So what happened was that from 1987-about 1995 you end up with cva producing a bunch of rifles under different names all of which look identical . . IE Pennsylvania Deer hunter , Plainsman , Bobcat …….
In the lat 1990s , they finally settle on calling the rifle the bobcat for their entry level design .
They also tried modifying existing lines . So you get the CVA hawken which looks just like the frontier rifle but without a patch box .
Myself , I know of no book that lists all the buns CVA offered . The reason is that like the early one piece ling rifle, they were not listed but offered in limited numbers by special order ONLY .
In the end CVA retailed a lot of BP items . Rifles shotguns, muskets , small cannons and pistols . a lot of it is listed . But the better quality items , you wont see untell one day you run across it
Post by: Swamp on August 25, 2011, 10:52:12 PM
Post by: Captchee on August 25, 2011, 11:03:48 PM
Post by: BGRooster1 on August 25, 2011, 11:59:03 PM
Post by: Swamp on August 26, 2011, 07:18:36 AM
If anyone wants some info from this book, for a particular CVA rifle, pistol, revolver, or lock, I can send you a copy of the page electronically. I can scan it, then attach it to an email.
Post by: Captchee on August 26, 2011, 09:30:05 AM
Quote from: "BGRooster1"
Yea.I know they didn't make them themselves, just saying. So if it is stamped "mountain" .It should be from the made in USA days if I understand you right?
nope .
early mountian rifles will be marked wit big letters that say ; MADE IN USA.
later rifles will carry made in spain
Post by: Riley/MN on August 26, 2011, 10:50:58 AM
Post by: prairie dog on August 26, 2011, 11:52:39 AM
Connecticut Valley Arms
Black Powder only .50 cal."
Post by: Swamp on August 26, 2011, 01:12:38 PM
Capt, would you know if these are made in the USA? The guy I bought it from said he built the rifle from a kit back in the early 70's.
Thanks for your help!
Post by: Captchee on August 26, 2011, 02:36:04 PM
see even early on CVA was importing parts from jukar /Adesa
the CVA mountain rifles with the Made in USA stamp were suposed to be their flagship line , were very good shooters and originally sold for as much as a Remington or Ithaca .
thats why you see these still holding there value today .
but in reality even their locks were made by Adesa
myself i have even seen what IMO were kit rifles with the Made in USA stamping . But the parts are clearly Spanish and sometimes even stamped so .
We should also be frank here in our understanding of CVA .
a lot of what is known is frankly speculation or knowledge from those of us that have dealt with CVA through their existence .
Take the Douglas and Sharon barrels . are we 100% sure they made these barrels . Nope .
As I understand it , The owner of CVA Dave silk had????
I believe Don Krammerer build the proto type of the first CVA mountain rifle .
By this time CVA was already purchasing rifles from Spain .
But CVA was known for short product runs and when the MADE IN USA mountain rifles came out Douglas was near the end of their barrel making .
As I understand it Sharon took over and finished the production or CVA bought the reminder of the production . But even this is speculation because we just don’t have the records to say for 100% certainty as that was at the end of the MT rifles production run
Where we run into trouble is that CVA didn’t keep real good records of just who in the US was supplying them for a time .
What I can tell you though is that the early Mt rifles should have a barrel marked Made in the USA and the patch box should have 4 screws holding it in . later runs have only 2 screws on their box and some have no country of origin stamped on the barrels .
Even the RR thimbles are different in that early rifles carried a milled type of steel thimble . Later runs were cast
Myself , I believe these to have been made in spain , even though they don’t state it
The other thing that is not commonly understood is where the CVA rifles come from which are pre 1971 . The reality of it though is that Connecticut valley arms can trace its roots clear back to Eli Whitney not just to 1971 so its possible that earlier then 1971 someone else was using the name
Still though the basic dirt of it all is that CVA had so many different owners . Different production runs , limited production runs that all we can really do is try and piece together the information we do have . Thus every now and then what we know changes as some new piece pops up.
but for now i would say that if one doesnt know and the barrel isnt marked , its probably a safe bet that its spanish if its a CVA
Post by: Hank in WV on August 26, 2011, 05:17:28 PM
Post by: BGRooster1 on August 26, 2011, 10:12:22 PM
I will wait for you to reply to ask my questions
Post by: Swamp on August 27, 2011, 06:14:45 AM
Rooster, you can PM me if you would like!
Post by: Gordon H.Kemp on August 27, 2011, 09:26:59 AM
I had heard they(CVA) had some other financial problems along the way , but have not found material to verify this. The last of the parts in stock were/are sold through Deer Creek Products. Ther is also a person in Mass. that cornered the parts for the SxS shotgun lock parts. I was reffered to him by DGW when trying to locate a lefthand lock mainspring a few years ago.
there has been a couple of CVA Mtn. Rifles on auctionarms
in recent weeks, don,t know from what run but anyone looking for one might check them out?
:toast
Post by: Swamp on August 27, 2011, 10:54:58 AM
I picked up this older catalog at an antique arms show. The guy had a pile of old magazines and what not, and as I went thru the pile, I found this one.
I also bought a Big Bore Mountain Rifle in .58 cal at the same show for $100. The guy said he was the original owner, and that he bought the rifle as a kit, and put it together back in the 1970's. He admitted that his gun building skills were not the best, but the rifle had potential. I took it home, and stripped everything down. The stock is now refinished like an origianl Leman rifle with the faux striping, and all the iron is rust browned. I still have to brown the barrel yet. But she's a beauty!
Post by: Captchee on August 27, 2011, 10:57:06 AM
Quote
Capt. when you say CVA ran into legal problems , are you referring to their episode of breeching failures on the (in-line) models with serial no#s containing 95 or 96?
That was actually just the most resent issue Gordon .
CVA also had issues with bolsters and breeches on traditional guns.
The thing we should also remember and is not often given do credit for IMO , is that CVA IMO was trying to be responsible . When it recognized issues , it tried to correct them . This is seen in the different evolutions in the drums and bolster designs.
We should also remember that in the recall of the mid 1990’s , CVA did that voluntarily even though there was pressure to do so .
All these things cost and when you margin of profit is so low there isn’t a whole lot of safety margin to be able to absorb those costs or the costs of bad publicity.
Thus today you read a lot of complaints about Spanish made muzzleloaders . But ever notice that in those complaints you will 99% of the time find CVA mentioned . But what you hardly ever hear is “Traditions”. never mind traditions markets the same guns . Made by the same Spanish manufactures .
In a since IMO what happened was that CVA became the kicking dog with a cenonimous bulls eye on its back .
Never mind the fact that just like all gun companies , there are going to be failures . Remington has them , savage has them , Winchester , Ithaca and Pedersoli all have them .
The difference is though that there are far more CVA product out there then any other muzzleloading manufacture .
Take the resent issue with GM and their heli coil application . What would have happened if that very same thing had been found to have been purposely done on a Spanish made muzzleloader barrel ?
Yet GM has came off relatively un scathed
But those were not their only legal issues . At one time there were a hand full of companies marketing near identical to identical products . Jukar , Markwell and Hi Point just to name 3 . Even Dixie was at one time selling the same gun , just with different patch boxs
See while CVA was an importer . They were actually designing many of their rifles and then having then made in Spain. So there was at one time a conflict as to actually who owned the rights . The manufacture or the importer .
So it became one of those deals where even though they may have won the battle . The cost of that battle took its toll .
Post by: BGRooster1 on August 27, 2011, 12:06:46 PM
Post by: Gordon H.Kemp on August 27, 2011, 09:41:10 PM
Post by: Swamp on August 28, 2011, 08:44:59 PM
Post by: Roaddog on August 29, 2011, 07:32:18 AM
Post by: Gordon H.Kemp on August 29, 2011, 10:11:23 AM
Post by: Riley/MN on August 29, 2011, 10:18:36 AM
Good lookin shooter!
Post by: mcknight77 on February 19, 2012, 02:38:57 PM
Quote from: "prairie dog"
My Mountain Rifle is marked like this;
Connecticut Valley Arms
Black Powder only .50 cal."
Mine is marked the same. Plus serial number 0097xxx.
No USA or Spain,